[Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question.

[Harshad Dave]

Ref.: This refers to the message of Annalisa dtd.  Jun 26, 2020, 12:37 PM.

Hi,

First of all I point out that the example of *the man with a gun* is just a
secondary discussion where, ultimately, I just wanted to draw specific
attention of the readers that every up gradation of socio economic
formation brought innumerable changes in the overall constitution of the
subject upgraded society, where one of them is…. “it (up gradation) brought
more supplementing to the various natural abilities”. I believe that we
should not change our concentration from the main line of our discussion
and that part follows then after in my subject message.

However, when it is raised I just put my views to avoid confusion. If you
read the message again you will notice that initially I have clarified

“Let us keep *timeline of mankind development* as a base of reference in
our mind while presenting my views here below.”

I have presented my views with reference to timeline only and
differentiated two cases in that context only.

I believe…. When we discuss such issues we should not evaluate two
different cases to decide one is better than another or superior/inferior
or higher/lower…. We might just acknowledge both are different. What are
the repercussions of this difference might be a subject of discussion.

You have discussed the subject matter with examples but I think it is “*a
shallow water swimming*”. The subject matter that we discuss cannot be
concluded just so easily that is what my impression says.

Lastly, if one wants to grasp what a person wants to say in his message,
apart from word to word clarity in her message, it equally depends on the
reader’s cooperation also.

With true regards,

Harshad Dave

NB: with reference to your message dtd. 25 June 2020 3.33 am, I shall put
my views in a couple of days, it is under my pen.


On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 12:37 PM Simangele Mayisela <
simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za> wrote:

> Point noted David, thank you.
>
> To the group,  your conversations are quite informative and thought
> provoking, thank you to the hosts of this thread.
>
> Regards,
> S'ma
>
> Get Outlook for Android
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://aka.ms/ghei36__;!!Mih3wA!QfVm3BU4e-0dMjmBP_sd71n9WoXQJa6cksCbSujCenfIzeh1ZCHW6uCpCbtzAVPYXouQcQ$>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> on behalf of David H Kirshner <dkirsh@lsu.edu>
> *Sent:* Friday, June 26, 2020 1:11:50 AM
> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question.
>
>
> S’ma,
>
>
>
> I don’t think social sciences are any more *ideological* than natural
> sciences.
>
> After spending a year among social scientists, Kuhn (1970) “was struck by
> the number and extent of the overt disagreements between social scientists
> about the nature of legitimate scientific problems and methods. Both
> history and acquaintance made me doubt that practitioners of the natural
> sciences possess firmer or more permanent answers to such [foundational]
> questions than their colleagues in social science” (p. x). The critical
> difference Kuhn identified between these two types of science is that the
> natural sciences have reached a consensus about foundational issues and so
> don’t have to deal with them. The methodological challenges you point to in
> social sciences are just an artifact of ideological dispersion, not a
> result of the presence or absence of ideology.
>
>
>
> David
>
>
>
> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> *On
> Behalf Of *Simangele Mayisela
> *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2020 5:50 AM
> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question.
>
>
>
> Thank you for responding to my communication, and for viewing  the video.
> Let me say that the connection between the current conversation about
> “scientific” knowledge (in this case in relation to  “levels” of mental
> development and “ideology”) and James Lindsay’s argument on Critical Theory
> having no scientific basis (in the video) is this:
>
>
>
> Lindasy and his colleagues believe that Critical Theory, I suppose with
> its shoots like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory,
>  Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a  movement
> which they call “Grievance studies”,  that perpetuates “self-pity” and
> “victim mentality”. They further went on to produce fake scientific study
> “dog rape culture and feminism” known as “hoax science” as evidence of how
> unscientific “grievance studies” are;  most of which are of course are
> situated in the social sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the
> system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which some believe are also
> tainted by ideological predispositions – my fear is that this introduces
> mistrust in the review processes of scientific journals which we have to
> concerned about.
>
>
>
> The reason I brought up Lindsay’s argument to the picture is: while I am
> not certain if I wholly agree with Lindsay’s argument on Critical Theories,
> I  am however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the influence of
> ideological position an individual or rather a “scientist” holds,  ( an
> idea alluded to by some,  earlier in this thread). I believe, as much as we
> aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientiific enquiry, the
> narratives associated with our scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be
> tainted with ideologically biases or historicities. The likes of Lindsay
> and Weisten bring to our attention the dangers of the exclusion of the
> masses in the name of “scientific evidence” – who in this day of rapid
> technological connection the collective is gradually become global rather
> than in specific localities. Even those that deemed to have “primitive
> mental functioning” or “unsophisticated” mental functioning, their
> unexpected ability to infiltrate academia and other spaces with Critical
> Theory  like a  “Trojan Horse”, that’s according to Bret Weisten (
> po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/
> ) surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan Horse is
> scientific evidence of “self-pity”, “victim mentality”, unsophisticated
> mental functioning, … (we can add other classifying adjectives to describe
> all those who have not developed “scientific tools”).
>
>
>
> My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to some of the sources
> that I have encountered earlier, clearly not on this youtube video I
> referred you to, but it is  within this line of debates about “scientific”
> knowledge”.
>
>
>
> It seems to me Paulo Friere “Education for the Oppressed” association to
> "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and dubbed as “Education for the
> Depressed”, which is unfortunate, especially if we take into consideration
> all the publications by Freire, like Education for Liberation.
> Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical Education is
> evidence of  the collectively formulated knowledge that is generously
> shared, rendering the commodified "scientific"  knowledge accessible to the
> privileged few, generously shared to all who needs to advance the survival
> of humanity.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> S’ma
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> *On
> Behalf Of *Andy Blunden
> *Sent:* Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37
> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question.
>
>
>
> Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality" or
> "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive
> movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a
> sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at
> stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination.
> There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called
> philanthropy and charity.
>
> Andy
> ------------------------------
>
> *Andy Blunden*
> Hegel for Social Movements
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fbrill.com*2Fview*2Ftitle*2F54574__*3B!!Mih3wA!WCK45j6Y4AscTY1OVN1quxD0_VDKtR1Y9u5SYoUgfTIzhGpvyRCeU6XnFqBCRESHVrtCaw*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C638ddfc14b0c4719659e08d818f5bc62*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637286791033646508&sdata=sdWdIAnnjr095Ua9*2BP*2Bqx*2BHDL2jgoScjyFqbKxnzO9s*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!Q5hOCEOLShfCZzDJo29xyQu1F6TpHznsmesu6IMINqpAHlLmDMR_DDAdCAfgbrNLt4y2hA$>
> Home Page
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.ethicalpolitics.org*2Fablunden*2Findex.htm__*3B!!Mih3wA!WCK45j6Y4AscTY1OVN1quxD0_VDKtR1Y9u5SYoUgfTIzhGpvyRCeU6XnFqBCREQ2rLbDLg*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C638ddfc14b0c4719659e08d818f5bc62*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637286791033646508&sdata=mjJfVN1XwNTf8Swk4Oj6OExcRa0TjpPIqUwMhUqSuIk*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!Mih3wA!Q5hOCEOLShfCZzDJo29xyQu1F6TpHznsmesu6IMINqpAHlLmDMR_DDAdCAfgbrO4bYXJQw$>
>
> On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote:
>
> thanks S’ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss
> what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice—a video
> critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as “grievance
> studies”–is  indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this
> conversation!
>
>
>
> In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not so
> well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions
> Paolo Freire’s Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of “critical social
> justice” books, which he defines as “a codified way to indulge people into
> self pity…”(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with
> Freire’s book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or,
> as Lindsay’s says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether
> Lindsay’s critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory
> scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay’s position, an
> example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it?
>
>
>
> Alfredo
>
> *From: *<xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of Martin Packer
> <mpacker@cantab.net> <mpacker@cantab.net>
> *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Date: *Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54
> *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question.
>
>
>
> Hi Simangele,
>
>
>
> How are you evaluating “level of mental functioning”? I would say that is
> something with which psychology has had some difficulty.
>
>
>
> Martin
>
>
>
> *"I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss
> matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my
> partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with
> the feeling that this also applies to myself” (Malinowski, 1930)*
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela <
> simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za> wrote:
>
>
>
> Further,  I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that
> at the heart of the “hypothesis” of the scientific question are the
> “levels” of mental development which are associated to “skin colour”, with
> little consideration of the historical oppression that created the
> “backwards” economies that keep the third of the global population is what
> appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more
> about “what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black
> skin or a white skin?” with the aim to find evidence for the difference.
>
>
>
> Just to share, lately  have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what is
> “scientific”, “rigorous scientific” and “scholarship”  vs  popular
> narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking
> over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view – if you are
> Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay’s argument
> on ideologies.
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!SWhaCYspjB0Fwkf5inKjj_acjzfAKzlrfKn98OD6ZhwVS1k4ElznEDX0-cWaBdnlxpEf2g$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.youtube.com*2Fwatch*3Fv*3D8N55gFjg4yg__*3B!!Mih3wA!V2LYI2I2g-qSP--eE84G38eGWBud9YwatVDWX1IvY27YgsR7kTdkqVGDNoLNCYNmswIv-Q*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C638ddfc14b0c4719659e08d818f5bc62*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637286791033646508&sdata=xn7VPifJ6lKCZ3G6uftHiD0BE0MkBVN7Irgec22L4uA*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!Q5hOCEOLShfCZzDJo29xyQu1F6TpHznsmesu6IMINqpAHlLmDMR_DDAdCAfgbrN0LsSKBg$>
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> S’ma
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Simangele Mayisela
> *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10
> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Subject:* RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question.
>
>
>
> Dear Alfredo
>
>
>
> Thank you for taking my attention of “level” which is crucial to rendering
> the question “scientific”. But couple with level, which could be quantifies
> as “high” and “low” or “superior” or “inferior” would account for
> “difference”. As much as the question to be asked should be about the
> “ideological basis” , I think the “hypothesis” is likely to be linked to
> the “ideolody” as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the
> scientist works from, which informs where the person  will land  in terms
> of the ideas.
>
>
>
> Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ?
>
> Regards,
>
> S’ma
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> *On
> Behalf Of *Alfredo Jornet Gil
> *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 20:51
> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question.
>
>
>
> Dear S’ma,
>
>
>
> I am not sure anyone could provide that “scientific” basis without first
> explaining what is meant by “level,” and most importantly, why and how such
> explanation should be relevant to account for historical relations across
> cultures/societies, specially relations of oppression. I understand your
> curiosity, though, which is why I feel it is important to be very clear
> about this issue and not let it unfold as if this was simply an adequate
> scientific or philosophical research question. Given all that we know from
> history and more precisely from political economy, the important discussion
> is not about the scientific basis of that affirmation, but about its *
> *ideological** basis: what sort of ideological inquiry is set forth by
> posing that question in the context of this thread and of this moment in
> history? There can be no question that there are and there were differences
> between the socioeconomic formations of different cultures and that such
> cultures were local, not global or international. So, the problem is not
> finding the “scientific” basis but the how and why that question is being
> raised. I hope this makes sense to all of you, does it?
>
>
>
> Alfredo
>
> *From: *<xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of Simangele Mayisela
> <simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za>
> *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Date: *Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 19:57
> *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question.
>
>
>
> Friends!
>
>
>
> I am curious to read more about the scientific basis of the “the
> difference in the level of *the mental socioeconomic formation* between
> the two.”  Can colleagues be kind to provide scientific sources of this
> difference.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> S’ma
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> *On
> Behalf Of *White, Phillip
> *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 14:08
> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question.
>
>
>
> This is horribly troubling
>
> Racist eugenics
>
> Please stop
>
>
>
> Phillip
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
> On Jun 23, 2020, at 5:40 AM, Harshad Dave <hhdave15@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Dear Prof. David,
>
>
>
> Your message reads...
>
> "I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without
> a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It
> certainly does not belong on this list."
>
>
>
> I request you to go through the following points carefully. Perhaps, you
> might catch the sound of my saying.
>
>
>
> Point 1
>
> If my views on the subject matter impress anyone that it is a distribution
> of the racist filth, I think they (my views) are grasped with a great
> misunderstanding.
>
>
>
> Whenever any unpleasant event happens (like the unfortunate death of Floyd
> or else) between black/brown and white, the attitude and mindset of racism
> in the event is discussed by all as if the color of the skin is responsible
> for it….. as if it is founded on the color of the skin.
>
> Here I disagree and simply say…. Basically it is not the cause of color of
> the skin but it (the cause) harbors in the difference in the level of *the
> mental socioeconomic formation* between the two.
>
> Nowhere I ever said, no where I supported, no where I believed that *“it
> is justified”*.
>
> Please, try to understand me….
>
> “Whether racism should be there OR it should not be there”
>
> OR
>
> “If it is justified OR not justified”
>
> is not the subject matter of my saying. I just say the cause of the said
> “filth” does not lie in the color of the skin but it lies in the above
> mentioned “Level difference”.
>
>
>
> Point 2
>
> You have reproduced a small paragraph from my doc file that I attached in
> my previous message.
>
> If I am not mistaken to understand the essence of the saying in your
> message, I think you pointed out…
>
>  “The views that I presented in the subject paragraph do not have *scientific
> understanding* and *scientific basis*.”
>
> I agree with you that while writing my subject views I have never searched
> if they have scientific support as above. I believe… *an outcome of
> contemplation* and *a logical compliance* are the supports and
> justifications of any *thinker* to present his views.
>
> If people (readers) accept the views no research paper is needed to
> support them. When a thinker is asked to present scientific support for his
> views I fear doors of philosophical works will get shut down. I have not
> claimed the views are *rules* and *laws*. If readers do not agree with
> them, the views automatically will become null and void.
>
> Regards,
>
> Harshad Dave
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 3:27 PM Mary van der Riet <VanDerRiet@ukzn.ac.za>
> wrote:
>
> I agree
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *Mary van der Riet (Phd), Associate Professor*
>
> *Discipline of Psychology, School of Applied Human Sciences, College of
> Humanities, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa*
>
> *email: **vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za* <vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za>*
>       tel: +27 33 260 6163*
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> on behalf of David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 June 2020 02:32
> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question.
>
>
>
> Dear Mr. Dave:
>
>
>
> I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a
> shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly
> does not belong on this list.
>
>
>
> "Who were the black people that Europeans brought with them? They were
> living in primitive habitations in Africa with very primitive socio
> economic formation. Their forefathers have never passed through the ups and
> downs in last 3000 years comparable to the lessons European people learned
> and sustained with and ever before that. The development of brain threads
> of the black people and structure of their DNA are in compliance with the
> pattern of life their forefathers passed through in Africa and its status
> was in line with the socio economic formation in which they lived when they
> were forcibly kidnapped as slaves by European people and their agents.
> Generally we talk about apartheid but it is complex issue. We never give
> consideration to this fact of difference in brain thread net work and
> structure of DNA and consequential difficulties people of both the sides
> face while they have to interact with each others."
>
>
> David Kellogg
>
> Sangmyung University
>
>
>
> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto.
>
> Outlines, Spring 2020
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!SWhaCYspjB0Fwkf5inKjj_acjzfAKzlrfKn98OD6ZhwVS1k4ElznEDX0-cWaBdkiZVRZhw$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fprotect-za.mimecast.com*2Fs*2F4SZoCj2J6yfjqgqZSW5Gft*3Fdomain*3Durldefense.com__*3B!!Mih3wA!TSjxRZNvMM9E_Fxpr61FuZbtdmS2LqgbJ1zNHqtehEMf9FHvEvwI66x315TOM1TAHTd1Fg*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C638ddfc14b0c4719659e08d818f5bc62*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637286791033656504&sdata=8XWKXXjAC*2Bj5FNxXIzewwwi*2FmxNAbKg61BjUWFbmFx4*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!Q5hOCEOLShfCZzDJo29xyQu1F6TpHznsmesu6IMINqpAHlLmDMR_DDAdCAfgbrPYRKJu1g$>
>
> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume
> One: Foundations of Pedology*"
>
>  https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SWhaCYspjB0Fwkf5inKjj_acjzfAKzlrfKn98OD6ZhwVS1k4ElznEDX0-cWaBdnZSYMfNw$ 
>
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fprotect-za.mimecast.com*2Fs*2F_02ECk5MXzfnQgQoUVBQs_*3Fdomain*3Durldefense.com__*3B!!Mih3wA!TSjxRZNvMM9E_Fxpr61FuZbtdmS2LqgbJ1zNHqtehEMf9FHvEvwI66x315TOM1R8_2MsEg*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C638ddfc14b0c4719659e08d818f5bc62*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637286791033656504&sdata=kUtEMYQ6*2Fmr2Q8Ch63CUhSrqhjlxmqPzNSC1IP5*2FSFk*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!Q5hOCEOLShfCZzDJo29xyQu1F6TpHznsmesu6IMINqpAHlLmDMR_DDAdCAfgbrP4kqBjpA$>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:53 PM Harshad Dave <hhdave15@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> David—
>
> Your message addressed to Anthony impresses me that you have reached a
> conclusion in haste and prematurely about my concepts/views. Perhaps it
> might be due to weakness/error in the presentation of my views.  Here I put
> three points to express myself.
>
> *Point 1:*
>
> When I contemplate on the issue of racism (discrimination between two sets
> of people from different origin), I temporarily suspend my
> feelings/sentiments founded on *philosophy of humanity* to work on the
> issue impartially. I appeal to all friends to come out from that cocoon if
> they want to have a transparent vision on the subject issue.
>
> If anyone believes that the anatomy of the subject issue might be
> discovered by mounting one leg on the horse of our *sentiments and
> emotions on humanitarian concepts* and second leg on the horse of *facts
> of* *the prevailing social constitution of latest socio economic
> formation, *I think he will never succeed in his task.
>
> *Point 2:*
>
> Here below, I attach one doc file.... title--- “Where the shoe pinches?”
> I request you to read the points discussed there on this subject matter on
> page 28 as the article is very long.
>
> [Go to page 28 and it starts – “It is not necessary that there should be
> two separate nations or habitations with different levels of socio economic
> formations and both………….”
>
> It ends at page no. 35 – “………. prejudice and partiality, but it is
> mandatory that they must have all the abilities to secure their right of
> enjoyment through their abilities only.”]
>
> The fact that is discussed in the above mentioned text cannot be
> overlooked with our *justice and good conscience*.
>
> *Point 3:*
>
> As concluded by David,
>
> “……but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in
> the USA using concepts……”
>
> I say he has misunderstood me. I do agree that the social constitution in
> India is influenced by “cast culture” but there are people who might
> think and analyze issues pertaining to social science and economics
> remaining out of the cocoon of “cast culture”.
>
> Regards,
>
> Harshad Dave
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 4:26 AM David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Anthony--
>
>
>
> I think Annalisa knows more about this than I do, but it seems to me that
> Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts that are
> related to the ancient Hindu system of caste. Castes are not races (they
> are even less tied to pigmentation than race), and they are certainly not
> classes (they are reproduced by marriage and the family rather than by
> relations of production): I suppose they are something like kinship groups
> that are tied for historical as well as religious reasons to particular
> professions. Because they are emphasized in religion (and more recently in
> India's communal politics) they can certainly be said to be "socio-mental"
> in quality. Somehow I don't think that this is what Andy has in mind when
> he says that cultural artefacts bring the WHOLE of culture into
> interpersonal interaction and suspend the distinction between social theory
> and psychology!
>
>
>
>
> David Kellogg
>
> Sangmyung University
>
>
>
> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto.
>
> Outlines, Spring 2020
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!SWhaCYspjB0Fwkf5inKjj_acjzfAKzlrfKn98OD6ZhwVS1k4ElznEDX0-cWaBdkiZVRZhw$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fprotect-za.mimecast.com*2Fs*2F7lk_ClO6EAHoZLZ6sy71p6*3Fdomain*3Durldefense.com__*3B!!Mih3wA!TSjxRZNvMM9E_Fxpr61FuZbtdmS2LqgbJ1zNHqtehEMf9FHvEvwI66x315TOM1TbNjHOhg*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C638ddfc14b0c4719659e08d818f5bc62*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637286791033666499&sdata=q9GfhArpu3SrX5OuaD8vqzg*2FIgIZPIGUYZP4c2kAAGs*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!Mih3wA!Q5hOCEOLShfCZzDJo29xyQu1F6TpHznsmesu6IMINqpAHlLmDMR_DDAdCAfgbrP1g1x6_Q$>
>
> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume
> One: Foundations of Pedology*"
>
>  https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SWhaCYspjB0Fwkf5inKjj_acjzfAKzlrfKn98OD6ZhwVS1k4ElznEDX0-cWaBdnZSYMfNw$ 
>
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fprotect-za.mimecast.com*2Fs*2FhrCcCmwXNBT5nvnks9iGdT*3Fdomain*3Durldefense.com__*3B!!Mih3wA!TSjxRZNvMM9E_Fxpr61FuZbtdmS2LqgbJ1zNHqtehEMf9FHvEvwI66x315TOM1Rq1D29Ug*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C638ddfc14b0c4719659e08d818f5bc62*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637286791033666499&sdata=DVNTo96WsVbLfZ5hZekOE1vfsxQrx6cQkTQ67b41lx8*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!Mih3wA!Q5hOCEOLShfCZzDJo29xyQu1F6TpHznsmesu6IMINqpAHlLmDMR_DDAdCAfgbrPs6Z1Wpg$>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 8:24 PM Anthony Barra <anthonymbarra@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about here, although my sense is
> that it's wildly wrong, in various ways. I am confused but hope you have a
> nice day, regardless.
>
>
>
> Anthony
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sunday, June 21, 2020, Harshad Dave <hhdave15@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Atten.: Anthony Barra and David Kellog.
>
> Hi,
>
> This is with reference to your replies to my message. I am thankful for
> the same and regret for the delay in reply. I used the word “apartheid”
> just in the sense of racism, complains of blacks/brown that they are
> discriminated in social dealing by whites etc. David Kellog - Thanks for
> the detail source of the word “apartheid”, however I request you to take
> its meaning in the same sense as expressed above. The suggested/recommended
> articles are viewed in a glancing by me; I recall I have read them (one or
> more) on Academia web. You will agree their subject matter is different.
> Anthony Barra – The article that was recommended by you is read by me and
> it touches on various realities in the subject matter of our topic.
>
> I just put my views against the question I asked in my message dtd. 17
> June 2020.
>
> There are two most probable answers.
>
> 1.      The turned out black European people will be the victim of racism
> (discrimination) by the turned out white people from African origin.
>
> 2.      The situation remains the same and the world will see protests
> and fights on an issue or against a complaining that the black European
> people discriminate white people of African origin in the USA.
>
> I leave it to the readers to give their logical consideration to the one
> out of the above two, but my opinion says the second answer will hold good,
> but one should not forget it is just true on hypothetical presumption.
>
> It is a mistake to believe that *the attitude of discrimination* and *sickness
> of racism *harbor in the color of the skin. In fact above
> altitude/sickness is founded on the difference of *mental socio economic
> formation status* of two men. There is a basic difference between the two
> statuses of *mental socio economic formation *of black people of African
> origin and that of white people of European origin. I believe that a mass
> of people constituting a society with advanced socio economic formation has
> fair chances to exploit the mass of people constituting a society with
> backward socio economic formation. It is equally true for two classes of
> peoples at different *mental socio economic formation status* also. But,
> here (in the USA) both the classes of people are living in the same society
> with one *constitution* and uniform *rule of laws*. It is absurd to
> believe that the present socio economic formation of the society of the USA
> (21st century) has prevailed and occupied equally and uniformly by each
> and every citizen of the USA. One might find various people in the present
> society of the USA with different levels of *mental socio economic
> formation status*. It is really a complicated situation when the society
> is throughout with the latest socio economic formation and members of the
> society are with varying levels of *mental socio economic formation
> status* in the same society. Let me present part of the message of
> Abraham Lincoln before I finish this message.
>
> Fourth Debate: Charleston, Illinois – September 18, 1858.
>
> “*I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing
> about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black
> races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making
> voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to
> intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there
> is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe
> will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and
> political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do
> remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I
> as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position
> assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that
> because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be
> denied everything.*”
>
>
>
> Here it is between the lines that difference in the *mental socio
> economic formation status* could be compensated to some extent, but for
> equality people with backward *mental socio economic formation status*
> will have to work hard to develop the same.
>
> I clarify, neither I am in favor of nor against the victims of the issue
> of discrimination and racism as far as my contemplation on the subject
> matter is to be carried out. But, I just want to explain where the real
> cause harbors.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Harshad Dave
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 6:01 PM David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Dear Harshad:
>
>
>
> I am still a little stunned by the last post you wrote, with all the
> references to predatory shopkeepers. It sounded like the stuff of a pogrom.
> As we discussed in the "My Hometown Minneapolis" thread, the threats to
> shopkeepers in Minneapolis often targeted South Asians, and had nothing to
> do with the police (except that the police may have been involved and
> certainly profitted from the looting politically).
>
>
>
> "Apartheid" is a term invented by the South African sociologist Verwoerd,
> who studied with the Gestalists. Some Gestaltists, like Narziss Ach and
> Felix Krueger, became Nazis; Verwoerd himself became, as you probably know,
> prime minister of South Africa and brought in the system of apartheid which
> Gandhi struggled against during his early years. The term used in my
> hometown Minneapolis is not "apartheid" but segregation: it is
> euphemistically referred to as "redlining" (by insurance companies) and
> "racial covenants" but not as "apartheid".
>
>
>
> Segregation and Jim Crow in Minneapolis is not based on pigmentation. Many
> "white" people are darker than blacks, and many black people are lighter
> than whites, because of the centuries of rape and the enthusiasm of slave
> owners for the practice of selling their own children. The last time I
> visited the "housing project"near where I grew up it was full of Hmong from
> Southeast Asia. Segregation in Minneapolis is above all a matter of class.
>
>
> David Kellogg
>
> Sangmyung University
>
>
>
> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto.
>
> Outlines, Spring 2020
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!SWhaCYspjB0Fwkf5inKjj_acjzfAKzlrfKn98OD6ZhwVS1k4ElznEDX0-cWaBdkiZVRZhw$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fprotect-za.mimecast.com*2Fs*2FupIcCnZJ6DfGonorTmKJVV*3Fdomain*3Durldefense.com__*3B!!Mih3wA!TSjxRZNvMM9E_Fxpr61FuZbtdmS2LqgbJ1zNHqtehEMf9FHvEvwI66x315TOM1QFm5D1Sg*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C638ddfc14b0c4719659e08d818f5bc62*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637286791033676492&sdata=OQO7eKIrdgCXIdL01QL3B5NEhtLxDKJEiaC4kiePWxM*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!Mih3wA!Q5hOCEOLShfCZzDJo29xyQu1F6TpHznsmesu6IMINqpAHlLmDMR_DDAdCAfgbrMyPKH8Mw$>
>
> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume
> One: Foundations of Pedology*"
>
>  https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!SWhaCYspjB0Fwkf5inKjj_acjzfAKzlrfKn98OD6ZhwVS1k4ElznEDX0-cWaBdnZSYMfNw$ 
>
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fprotect-za.mimecast.com*2Fs*2FLoX3CoYJXETXzkz6Sou7BK*3Fdomain*3Durldefense.com__*3B!!Mih3wA!TSjxRZNvMM9E_Fxpr61FuZbtdmS2LqgbJ1zNHqtehEMf9FHvEvwI66x315TOM1Teajel2w*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C638ddfc14b0c4719659e08d818f5bc62*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637286791033676492&sdata=92z70okibImgAk6b6icFba6n6eaxyU27JWfHUVEYsXw*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!Mih3wA!Q5hOCEOLShfCZzDJo29xyQu1F6TpHznsmesu6IMINqpAHlLmDMR_DDAdCAfgbrOD9jZN4A$>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:16 PM Harshad Dave <hhdave15@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Dear all there,
>
>
>
> We all are aware of the event of the death of George Floyd in the USA
> under police custody. There are flows of opinions, comments and views on
> the event with different aspects all over the world. There are debates and
> discussions on the event on innumerable web sites, we find them in
> newspapers and among the talks of people at private and public places. We
> just do not talk about riots and other events happened under agony and out
> burst of anger on the unfortunate death of Floyd, however, voice against
> apartheid was the major cry behind them.
>
> Though there are various vital aspects of the event, *apartheid* remained
> prime of them.
>
> I simply ask one question to my friends who read this post.
>
>
>
> Let us hypothetically presume, on one day fine morning, when people of the
> USA awake, they find that skin color of all the blacks is changed to
> perfectly white like european people and the skin color of all the
> europeans changed to black like negro.
>
> I ask my friends, "What will be the status of *apartheid* in this
> situation?"
>
>
>
> NB: I write one article on the ill fated event and its aspects. Your views
> on the above question will help me to write my views with more clarity in
> the article.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Harshad Dave
>
>
>
> This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential.
> If you have received this communication in error, please notify us
> immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or
> disseminate this communication without the permission of the University.
> Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on
> behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content
> of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may
> contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not
> necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand,
> Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are
> subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the
> contrary.
>
>
>
> This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential.
> If you have received this communication in error, please notify us
> immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or
> disseminate this communication without the permission of the University.
> Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on
> behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content
> of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may
> contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not
> necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand,
> Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are
> subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the
> contrary.
>
>
>
> This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential.
> If you have received this communication in error, please notify us
> immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or
> disseminate this communication without the permission of the University.
> Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on
> behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content
> of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may
> contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not
> necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand,
> Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are
> subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the
> contrary.
>
>
> This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential.
> If you have received this communication in error, please notify us
> immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or
> disseminate this communication without the permission of the University.
> Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on
> behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content
> of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may
> contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not
> necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand,
> Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are
> subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the
> contrary.
>
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