[Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question.
Martin Packer
mpacker@cantab.net
Thu Jun 25 06:48:10 PDT 2020
Harshad Dave,
Your “points" seem to assume that a person with a gun has a "higher mental level.” Do you really believe? I certainly do not.
Martin
> On Jun 25, 2020, at 8:10 AM, Harshad Dave <hhdave15@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hi,
>
> This refers to the message of Andy, dtd. June 24, 2020, 2:04 PM.
>
> Let us keep timeline of mankind development as a base of reference in our mind while presenting my views here below.
>
> Point 1
>
> Every creature in wild life has a set of abilities received under legacy as per natural law; it makes its living using the same abilities on events and occasions. You will agree that a strong man (even an ancient man) with the same set of natural abilities with him will not be able to kill a healthy tiger in a direct physical encounter, because the abilities that are warranted in the physical encounter are apparently at a different potential level where the tiger has a big lead. If the event of encounter was between the same tiger and a healthy rhinoceros, the tiger would have surely kept a safe distance from the rhinoceros avoiding the encounter based on its instinctive knowledge. Now, a physically far weak man with a gun (and practice to operate it) will kill the same tiger within no time. It is only because the weak man has a powerful supplement (the gun and its operating knowledge/practice) to his natural abilities.
>
> Point 2
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> Now, with reference to your words “Two entire human beings, or two entire ways of life, two entire cultures, cannot be compared or "graded" along a scale.”
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> I agree there is no measuring device or unit to compare them like mathematical or scientific procedure. However, with justice and good conscience, we might logically compare them in different traits of social potential.
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> When Columbus reached to Caribbean island and met Tino and other natives there, just tentatively imagine, what was the level of above mentioned supplements to natural abilities with European people standing behind Columbus and that of natives of America. I agree there is no accurate metric, but there is surely a meaningful empirical sense of it. History is the witness…. “The sense worked without the metric then, after Columbus returned and the great migration commenced”. It is just an example of a gun only. When a socio economic formation of a society changes, there are innumerable typical abilities that are achieved by the occupants of the society and they supplement the natural abilities of man.
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> Point 3
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> I believe, if a thinker wants to make the study of social issues transparent and nearest to its realistic nature, he/she should not ride on two horses…. humanitarian sentiments/feelings and facts of natural laws simultaneously. Here I shall talk standing on the platform of facts of natural laws only.
>
> It is my view that the socio economic formation of any human society might represent the integrated overall potential level of the supplements to the natural abilities of people constituting the society (I shall address it “the integrated overall potential level”). When the people of two societies with a large difference in their integrated overall potential levels (i. e. having different socio economic formations on the timeline) find long term reliable approach and excess for physical contact and occasions to interact, the society at higher integrated overall potential level (i. e. advance socio economic formation on timeline) has fair opportunities to exploit the rest one.
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> This is equally true for the people residing under one roof of a nation. Here, in India, there is a popular saying by wise old people… “A city breaks the villages”. Why did they get this empirical impression during their lifespan? It is only because; the people of the city live in advance socio economic formation, but the people of village legs behind in it. Every exchange between village and city…. When the city purchases products/services of village and village purchases products/services of city, villages are exploited like anything.
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> It is equally true when two men are in dealing/interaction and their mindset level of socio economic formation are at different levels, the person with a mental level in compliance with backward (legging behind on timeline) socio economic formation is prone to be exploited by the other one, but both are in the same society.
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> Point 4
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> That is the point I want to surface out. In my views, I get an impression that the constitutional structure of our society is like….,
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> There are some people with appreciable compliance with the present 20th – 21st century socio economic formation.
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> There are people with some departure in the above compliance.
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> There are people with a large void in the compliance.
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> Now above all the three masses of people are living under one roof of a nation and in the same society but their mental level of socio economic formation are at different levels.
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> Do you think that this difference will not generate any stress and strain on the functioning of the social system?
>
> Regards,
>
> Harshad Dave.
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 5:36 PM Simangele Mayisela <simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za <mailto:simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za>> wrote:
> Hi Andy and Alfredo
>
>
>
> Thank you for responding to my communication, and for viewing the video I referred to in my previous email. Let me say that the connection between the current conversation about “scientific” knowledge (in this case in relation to “levels” of mental development and “ideology”) and James Lindsay’s argument on Critical Theory having no scientific basis (in the video) is this:
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> Lindsay and his colleagues believe that Critical Theory, I suppose with its shoots like Critical Race Theory, Critical Race Feminist theory, Identity Theories, etc. do not have a scientific base but are a movement which they call “Grievance studies”, that perpetuates “self-pity” and “victim mentality”. They further went on to produce fake scientific study “dog rape culture and feminism” known as “hoax science” as evidence of how unscientific “grievance studies” are; most of which are of course are situated in the social sciences. This further exposed the paucity in the system of peer reviews in scientific journals, which some believe are also tainted by ideological predispositions – my fear is that this introduces mistrust in the notion of review processes of scientific journals - which we have to be concerned about.
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> The reason I brought up Lindsay’s argument to the picture is: while I am not certain if I wholly agree with Lindsay’s argument on Critical Theories, I am however fascinated by the fact that they confirm the influence of ideological position an individual or rather a “scientist” holds, ( an idea alluded to by some, earlier in this thread). I believe, as much as we aspire to be objective in our pursuit of scientific enquiry, the narratives associated with our scientific knowledge(s) are likely to be tainted with ideologically biases or historicity. The likes of Lindsay and Weinstein bring to our attention the dangers of the exclusion of the masses in the name of “scientific evidence” – who in this day of rapid technological connection the collective is gradually become global rather than in specific localities. Even those that deemed to have “primitive mental functioning” or “unsophisticated” mental functioning, their unexpected ability to infiltrate academia and other spaces with Critical Theory like a “Trojan Horse”, that’s according to Bret Weinstein ( po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://po.nl/2020/06/20/must-watch-joe-rogan-with-bret-weinstein-critical-theory-is-basically-a-trojan-horse/__;!!Mih3wA!X4pfrqjb1MoyRqO70cFkjeJFrscmByGSyawilKOzrNnBEjv1XsgsLjC00-inpWM9Yy25dQ$> ) seems to surprise us. I wonder though, if Critical Theorists' Trojan Horse is scientific evidence of “self-pity”, “victim mentality”, unsophisticated mental functioning, … (we can add other classifying adjectives to describe all those who have not developed “scientific tools”).
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> My reference to Lindsay and Marxism, is related to some of the sources that I have encountered earlier, clearly not on this YouTube video I referred you to, but it is within this line of debates about “scientific” knowledge”.
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> It seems to me that the association of Paulo Freire’s “Education for the Oppressed” to "victim mentality" is kind of twisted and perhaps mistook for “Education for the Depressed”, which is unfortunate, especially if we take into consideration all the publications by Freire, like Education for Liberation. Nevertheless, the Trojan Horse analogy for the Critical Education is evidence of the collectively formulated knowledge that is generously shared, rendering the commodified "scientific" knowledge accessible to the privileged few, generously shared to all who needs to advance the survival of humanity.
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> Regards,
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> Simangele
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> simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za <mailto:simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za>
> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> On Behalf Of Andy Blunden
> Sent: Wednesday, 24 June 2020 03:37
> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question.
>
>
>
> Casting collective efforts at self-determination as "victim mentality" or "self pity" has long been a line of right-wing criticism of progressive movements. Of all people, Paulo Freire is the last to be guilty of such a sin though; his pedagogy is aimed specifically, like Myles Horton's, at stimulating and equipping people from being victims to self-determination. There is such a thing as a politics of pity though; it is called philanthropy and charity.
>
> Andy
>
> Andy Blunden
> Hegel for Social Movements <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!WCK45j6Y4AscTY1OVN1quxD0_VDKtR1Y9u5SYoUgfTIzhGpvyRCeU6XnFqBCRESHVrtCaw$>
> Home Page <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!WCK45j6Y4AscTY1OVN1quxD0_VDKtR1Y9u5SYoUgfTIzhGpvyRCeU6XnFqBCREQ2rLbDLg$>
> On 24/06/2020 9:11 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote:
>
> thanks S’ma; among the many philosophy of science scholars who discuss what rigorous scientific and scholarship are or can be, your choice—a video critiquing critical theory in terms of what Lindsay refers to as “grievance studies”–is indeed surprising and remarkable in the context of this conversation!
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> In the video, which did not so much touch my small Marxist me (I am not so well read so as to know how much of a Marxist I am!), Lindsay mentions Paolo Freire’s Pedagogy of the Oppressed as an example of “critical social justice” books, which he defines as “a codified way to indulge people into self pity…”(min. 47:50). He complains that teachers are being educated with Freire’s book, and that students are being taught with this critical (or, as Lindsay’s says, this self-pity) attitude. Without going into whether Lindsay’s critique holds or has any touch with what critical theory scholars argue and do, I wonder, what would be, from Lindsay’s position, an example of a good book for teachers, and why would that one be it?
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> Alfredo
>
> From: <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of Martin Packer <mpacker@cantab.net> <mailto:mpacker@cantab.net>
> Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 23:54
> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question.
>
>
>
> Hi Simangele,
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>
>
> How are you evaluating “level of mental functioning”? I would say that is something with which psychology has had some difficulty.
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> Martin
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> "I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with the feeling that this also applies to myself” (Malinowski, 1930)
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> On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:32 PM, Simangele Mayisela <simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za <mailto:simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za>> wrote:
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> Further, I still have more questions, however it does appear to me that at the heart of the “hypothesis” of the scientific question are the “levels” of mental development which are associated to “skin colour”, with little consideration of the historical oppression that created the “backwards” economies that keep the third of the global population is what appears to be of low level of mental functioning. The question is more about “what is the quality of the contents of what is embodies by the black skin or a white skin?” with the aim to find evidence for the difference.
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> Just to share, lately have been viewing James Lindsay argument on what is “scientific”, “rigorous scientific” and “scholarship” vs popular narratives that are a propaganda based on Critical Theory, which are taking over academy. Here is one his videos that you may want to view – if you are Marxist at heart be warned that you may be challenged by Lindsay’s argument on ideologies.
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!TISAyc4x5fj9K-SgakpYYxpFiZnI7xltF1AhVJTMznonWgC-FprIrMr-a5KqM-Sl0FCLWw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N55gFjg4yg__;!!Mih3wA!V2LYI2I2g-qSP--eE84G38eGWBud9YwatVDWX1IvY27YgsR7kTdkqVGDNoLNCYNmswIv-Q$>
>
>
> Regards
>
> S’ma
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>
> From: Simangele Mayisela
> Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 22:10
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
> Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question.
>
>
>
> Dear Alfredo
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>
>
> Thank you for taking my attention of “level” which is crucial to rendering the question “scientific”. But couple with level, which could be quantifies as “high” and “low” or “superior” or “inferior” would account for “difference”. As much as the question to be asked should be about the “ideological basis” , I think the “hypothesis” is likely to be linked to the “ideolody” as the hypothesis serves as springboard from which the scientist works from, which informs where the person will land in terms of the ideas.
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> Nevertheless thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean ?
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> Regards,
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> S’ma
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> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> On Behalf Of Alfredo Jornet Gil
> Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 20:51
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question.
>
>
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> Dear S’ma,
>
>
>
> I am not sure anyone could provide that “scientific” basis without first explaining what is meant by “level,” and most importantly, why and how such explanation should be relevant to account for historical relations across cultures/societies, specially relations of oppression. I understand your curiosity, though, which is why I feel it is important to be very clear about this issue and not let it unfold as if this was simply an adequate scientific or philosophical research question. Given all that we know from history and more precisely from political economy, the important discussion is not about the scientific basis of that affirmation, but about its *ideological* basis: what sort of ideological inquiry is set forth by posing that question in the context of this thread and of this moment in history? There can be no question that there are and there were differences between the socioeconomic formations of different cultures and that such cultures were local, not global or international. So, the problem is not finding the “scientific” basis but the how and why that question is being raised. I hope this makes sense to all of you, does it?
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> Alfredo
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> From: <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> on behalf of Simangele Mayisela <simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za <mailto:simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za>>
> Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
> Date: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 at 19:57
> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question.
>
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> Friends!
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> I am curious to read more about the scientific basis of the “the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two.” Can colleagues be kind to provide scientific sources of this difference.
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> Regards,
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> S’ma
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> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> On Behalf Of White, Phillip
> Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 14:08
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question.
>
>
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> This is horribly troubling
>
> Racist eugenics
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> Please stop
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> Phillip
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> Sent from my iPhone
>
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> On Jun 23, 2020, at 5:40 AM, Harshad Dave <hhdave15@gmail.com <mailto:hhdave15@gmail.com>> wrote:
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> Dear Prof. David,
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>
>
> Your message reads...
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> "I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list."
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> I request you to go through the following points carefully. Perhaps, you might catch the sound of my saying.
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> Point 1
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> If my views on the subject matter impress anyone that it is a distribution of the racist filth, I think they (my views) are grasped with a great misunderstanding.
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> Whenever any unpleasant event happens (like the unfortunate death of Floyd or else) between black/brown and white, the attitude and mindset of racism in the event is discussed by all as if the color of the skin is responsible for it….. as if it is founded on the color of the skin.
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> Here I disagree and simply say…. Basically it is not the cause of color of the skin but it (the cause) harbors in the difference in the level of the mental socioeconomic formation between the two.
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> Nowhere I ever said, no where I supported, no where I believed that “it is justified”.
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> Please, try to understand me….
>
> “Whether racism should be there OR it should not be there”
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> OR
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> “If it is justified OR not justified”
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> is not the subject matter of my saying. I just say the cause of the said “filth” does not lie in the color of the skin but it lies in the above mentioned “Level difference”.
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> Point 2
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> You have reproduced a small paragraph from my doc file that I attached in my previous message.
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> If I am not mistaken to understand the essence of the saying in your message, I think you pointed out…
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> “The views that I presented in the subject paragraph do not have scientific understanding and scientific basis.”
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> I agree with you that while writing my subject views I have never searched if they have scientific support as above. I believe… an outcome of contemplation and a logical compliance are the supports and justifications of any thinker to present his views.
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> If people (readers) accept the views no research paper is needed to support them. When a thinker is asked to present scientific support for his views I fear doors of philosophical works will get shut down. I have not claimed the views are rules and laws. If readers do not agree with them, the views automatically will become null and void.
>
> Regards,
>
> Harshad Dave
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> On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 3:27 PM Mary van der Riet <VanDerRiet@ukzn.ac.za <mailto:VanDerRiet@ukzn.ac.za>> wrote:
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> I agree
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> Mary van der Riet (Phd), Associate Professor
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> Discipline of Psychology, School of Applied Human Sciences, College of Humanities, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa
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> email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za <mailto:vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za> tel: +27 33 260 6163
>
>
>
> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> on behalf of David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com <mailto:dkellogg60@gmail.com>>
> Sent: Tuesday, 23 June 2020 02:32
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Your views on a question.
>
>
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> Dear Mr. Dave:
>
>
>
> I think racist filth, devoid of any scientific understanding and without a shred of scientific basis, should not be distributed anywhere. It certainly does not belong on this list.
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> "Who were the black people that Europeans brought with them? They were living in primitive habitations in Africa with very primitive socio economic formation. Their forefathers have never passed through the ups and downs in last 3000 years comparable to the lessons European people learned and sustained with and ever before that. The development of brain threads of the black people and structure of their DNA are in compliance with the pattern of life their forefathers passed through in Africa and its status was in line with the socio economic formation in which they lived when they were forcibly kidnapped as slaves by European people and their agents. Generally we talk about apartheid but it is complex issue. We never give consideration to this fact of difference in brain thread net work and structure of DNA and consequential difficulties people of both the sides face while they have to interact with each others."
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> David Kellogg
>
> Sangmyung University
>
>
>
> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto.
>
> Outlines, Spring 2020
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!TISAyc4x5fj9K-SgakpYYxpFiZnI7xltF1AhVJTMznonWgC-FprIrMr-a5KqM-TY5E0FrQ$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/protect-za.mimecast.com/s/4SZoCj2J6yfjqgqZSW5Gft?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!TSjxRZNvMM9E_Fxpr61FuZbtdmS2LqgbJ1zNHqtehEMf9FHvEvwI66x315TOM1TAHTd1Fg$>
> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology"
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TISAyc4x5fj9K-SgakpYYxpFiZnI7xltF1AhVJTMznonWgC-FprIrMr-a5KqM-T0f7KuLw$
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/protect-za.mimecast.com/s/_02ECk5MXzfnQgQoUVBQs_?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!TSjxRZNvMM9E_Fxpr61FuZbtdmS2LqgbJ1zNHqtehEMf9FHvEvwI66x315TOM1R8_2MsEg$>
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> On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:53 PM Harshad Dave <hhdave15@gmail.com <mailto:hhdave15@gmail.com>> wrote:
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> David—
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> Your message addressed to Anthony impresses me that you have reached a conclusion in haste and prematurely about my concepts/views. Perhaps it might be due to weakness/error in the presentation of my views. Here I put three points to express myself.
>
> Point 1:
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> When I contemplate on the issue of racism (discrimination between two sets of people from different origin), I temporarily suspend my feelings/sentiments founded on philosophy of humanity to work on the issue impartially. I appeal to all friends to come out from that cocoon if they want to have a transparent vision on the subject issue.
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> If anyone believes that the anatomy of the subject issue might be discovered by mounting one leg on the horse of our sentiments and emotions on humanitarian concepts and second leg on the horse of facts of the prevailing social constitution of latest socio economic formation, I think he will never succeed in his task.
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> Point 2:
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> Here below, I attach one doc file.... title--- “Where the shoe pinches?” I request you to read the points discussed there on this subject matter on page 28 as the article is very long.
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> [Go to page 28 and it starts – “It is not necessary that there should be two separate nations or habitations with different levels of socio economic formations and both………….”
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> It ends at page no. 35 – “………. prejudice and partiality, but it is mandatory that they must have all the abilities to secure their right of enjoyment through their abilities only.”]
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> The fact that is discussed in the above mentioned text cannot be overlooked with our justice and good conscience.
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> Point 3:
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> As concluded by David,
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> “……but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts……”
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> I say he has misunderstood me. I do agree that the social constitution in India is influenced by “cast culture” but there are people who might think and analyze issues pertaining to social science and economics remaining out of the cocoon of “cast culture”.
>
> Regards,
>
> Harshad Dave
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 4:26 AM David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com <mailto:dkellogg60@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Anthony--
>
>
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> I think Annalisa knows more about this than I do, but it seems to me that Mr. Dave is trying to reinterpret events in the USA using concepts that are related to the ancient Hindu system of caste. Castes are not races (they are even less tied to pigmentation than race), and they are certainly not classes (they are reproduced by marriage and the family rather than by relations of production): I suppose they are something like kinship groups that are tied for historical as well as religious reasons to particular professions. Because they are emphasized in religion (and more recently in India's communal politics) they can certainly be said to be "socio-mental" in quality. Somehow I don't think that this is what Andy has in mind when he says that cultural artefacts bring the WHOLE of culture into interpersonal interaction and suspend the distinction between social theory and psychology!
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> David Kellogg
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> Sangmyung University
>
>
>
> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto.
>
> Outlines, Spring 2020
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!TISAyc4x5fj9K-SgakpYYxpFiZnI7xltF1AhVJTMznonWgC-FprIrMr-a5KqM-TY5E0FrQ$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/protect-za.mimecast.com/s/7lk_ClO6EAHoZLZ6sy71p6?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!TSjxRZNvMM9E_Fxpr61FuZbtdmS2LqgbJ1zNHqtehEMf9FHvEvwI66x315TOM1TbNjHOhg$>
> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology"
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TISAyc4x5fj9K-SgakpYYxpFiZnI7xltF1AhVJTMznonWgC-FprIrMr-a5KqM-T0f7KuLw$
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/protect-za.mimecast.com/s/hrCcCmwXNBT5nvnks9iGdT?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!TSjxRZNvMM9E_Fxpr61FuZbtdmS2LqgbJ1zNHqtehEMf9FHvEvwI66x315TOM1Rq1D29Ug$>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 8:24 PM Anthony Barra <anthonymbarra@gmail.com <mailto:anthonymbarra@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about here, although my sense is that it's wildly wrong, in various ways. I am confused but hope you have a nice day, regardless.
>
>
>
> Anthony
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sunday, June 21, 2020, Harshad Dave <hhdave15@gmail.com <mailto:hhdave15@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Atten.: Anthony Barra and David Kellog.
>
> Hi,
>
> This is with reference to your replies to my message. I am thankful for the same and regret for the delay in reply. I used the word “apartheid” just in the sense of racism, complains of blacks/brown that they are discriminated in social dealing by whites etc. David Kellog - Thanks for the detail source of the word “apartheid”, however I request you to take its meaning in the same sense as expressed above. The suggested/recommended articles are viewed in a glancing by me; I recall I have read them (one or more) on Academia web. You will agree their subject matter is different. Anthony Barra – The article that was recommended by you is read by me and it touches on various realities in the subject matter of our topic.
>
> I just put my views against the question I asked in my message dtd. 17 June 2020.
>
> There are two most probable answers.
>
> 1. The turned out black European people will be the victim of racism (discrimination) by the turned out white people from African origin.
>
> 2. The situation remains the same and the world will see protests and fights on an issue or against a complaining that the black European people discriminate white people of African origin in the USA.
>
> I leave it to the readers to give their logical consideration to the one out of the above two, but my opinion says the second answer will hold good, but one should not forget it is just true on hypothetical presumption.
>
> It is a mistake to believe that the attitude of discrimination and sickness of racism harbor in the color of the skin. In fact above altitude/sickness is founded on the difference of mental socio economic formation status of two men. There is a basic difference between the two statuses of mental socio economic formation of black people of African origin and that of white people of European origin. I believe that a mass of people constituting a society with advanced socio economic formation has fair chances to exploit the mass of people constituting a society with backward socio economic formation. It is equally true for two classes of peoples at different mental socio economic formation status also. But, here (in the USA) both the classes of people are living in the same society with one constitution and uniform rule of laws. It is absurd to believe that the present socio economic formation of the society of the USA (21st century) has prevailed and occupied equally and uniformly by each and every citizen of the USA. One might find various people in the present society of the USA with different levels of mental socio economic formation status. It is really a complicated situation when the society is throughout with the latest socio economic formation and members of the society are with varying levels of mental socio economic formation status in the same society. Let me present part of the message of Abraham Lincoln before I finish this message.
>
> Fourth Debate: Charleston, Illinois – September 18, 1858.
>
> “I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.”
>
>
>
> Here it is between the lines that difference in the mental socio economic formation status could be compensated to some extent, but for equality people with backward mental socio economic formation status will have to work hard to develop the same.
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> I clarify, neither I am in favor of nor against the victims of the issue of discrimination and racism as far as my contemplation on the subject matter is to be carried out. But, I just want to explain where the real cause harbors.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Harshad Dave
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 6:01 PM David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com <mailto:dkellogg60@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Dear Harshad:
>
>
>
> I am still a little stunned by the last post you wrote, with all the references to predatory shopkeepers. It sounded like the stuff of a pogrom. As we discussed in the "My Hometown Minneapolis" thread, the threats to shopkeepers in Minneapolis often targeted South Asians, and had nothing to do with the police (except that the police may have been involved and certainly profitted from the looting politically).
>
>
>
> "Apartheid" is a term invented by the South African sociologist Verwoerd, who studied with the Gestalists. Some Gestaltists, like Narziss Ach and Felix Krueger, became Nazis; Verwoerd himself became, as you probably know, prime minister of South Africa and brought in the system of apartheid which Gandhi struggled against during his early years. The term used in my hometown Minneapolis is not "apartheid" but segregation: it is euphemistically referred to as "redlining" (by insurance companies) and "racial covenants" but not as "apartheid".
>
>
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> Segregation and Jim Crow in Minneapolis is not based on pigmentation. Many "white" people are darker than blacks, and many black people are lighter than whites, because of the centuries of rape and the enthusiasm of slave owners for the practice of selling their own children. The last time I visited the "housing project"near where I grew up it was full of Hmong from Southeast Asia. Segregation in Minneapolis is above all a matter of class.
>
>
>
> David Kellogg
>
> Sangmyung University
>
>
>
> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto.
>
> Outlines, Spring 2020
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!TISAyc4x5fj9K-SgakpYYxpFiZnI7xltF1AhVJTMznonWgC-FprIrMr-a5KqM-TY5E0FrQ$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/protect-za.mimecast.com/s/upIcCnZJ6DfGonorTmKJVV?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!TSjxRZNvMM9E_Fxpr61FuZbtdmS2LqgbJ1zNHqtehEMf9FHvEvwI66x315TOM1QFm5D1Sg$>
> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology"
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TISAyc4x5fj9K-SgakpYYxpFiZnI7xltF1AhVJTMznonWgC-FprIrMr-a5KqM-T0f7KuLw$
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/protect-za.mimecast.com/s/LoX3CoYJXETXzkz6Sou7BK?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!TSjxRZNvMM9E_Fxpr61FuZbtdmS2LqgbJ1zNHqtehEMf9FHvEvwI66x315TOM1Teajel2w$>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:16 PM Harshad Dave <hhdave15@gmail.com <mailto:hhdave15@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
>
> Dear all there,
>
>
>
> We all are aware of the event of the death of George Floyd in the USA under police custody. There are flows of opinions, comments and views on the event with different aspects all over the world. There are debates and discussions on the event on innumerable web sites, we find them in newspapers and among the talks of people at private and public places. We just do not talk about riots and other events happened under agony and out burst of anger on the unfortunate death of Floyd, however, voice against apartheid was the major cry behind them.
>
> Though there are various vital aspects of the event, apartheid remained prime of them.
>
> I simply ask one question to my friends who read this post.
>
>
>
> Let us hypothetically presume, on one day fine morning, when people of the USA awake, they find that skin color of all the blacks is changed to perfectly white like european people and the skin color of all the europeans changed to black like negro.
>
> I ask my friends, "What will be the status of apartheid in this situation?"
>
>
>
> NB: I write one article on the ill fated event and its aspects. Your views on the above question will help me to write my views with more clarity in the article.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Harshad Dave
>
>
>
> This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary.
>
>
>
> This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary.
>
>
>
> This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary.
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