[Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes?
Andy Blunden
andyb@marxists.org
Tue Jul 28 04:25:26 PDT 2020
Having taken a moment to think about your question, Mike,
for a change, I think I can clarify my response.
The response cannot be an either-or answer.
Do we judge an actor (movement, project, person, ...) by
their means or by their end? by the journey or by the
destination? by the means (tools, words, ...) used or by the
object aimed at, by the process or the product. The answer
has to be *both* for the same kind of reason that we see
activity always in terms *dual stimulation*, not just
immediate and not just mediated, but both.
Every *thing* is, of course, also a *process*, in that every
thing is in movement and change. Every process is also a
product.
Andy
------------------------------------------------------------
*Andy Blunden*
Hegel for Social Movements <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!T4vkXB4gczFrrCtReqhNiHXdYrLreYwCliwQx8QgjlMKMq8cEf-1vEA3sh83JGDUwdyVCg$ >
Home Page <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!T4vkXB4gczFrrCtReqhNiHXdYrLreYwCliwQx8QgjlMKMq8cEf-1vEA3sh83JGDCobEkfQ$ >
On 25/07/2020 6:50 pm, Andy Blunden wrote:
>
> Oh, I see: "if you want to know the mind of a cobbler,
> then study the boots he has made."
>
> The focus on the object of activity to which Collingwood
> directs our attention, should not, I think, be seen as
> excluding understanding of the activity. He is saying:
> don't look inside his head, look at what he is /doing/,
> his object-oriented activity. True, there are different
> ways of making boots of the same quality, and the concept
> is includes /how/ the boot is produced as well as /what/
> was produced,
>
> Andy
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> Hegel for Social Movements
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!TfzgjLzqkc8JVlKmicTaLZMFJ8xx0betSNkstzweksdGg317CEc4oiSiGeNIzuH12f4l8Q$>
> Home Page
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!TfzgjLzqkc8JVlKmicTaLZMFJ8xx0betSNkstzweksdGg317CEc4oiSiGeNIzuG4Wc8m2w$>
>
> On 25/07/2020 12:48 pm, mike cole wrote:
>> Why restrict ourselves to observing the boot, Andy? Why
>> not study the process of the boot's coming into being
>> historically and in contemporary activities that bring boots
>> into being? In psychology a focus on products not
>> processes is a constant, justified complaint of critical
>> scholars I have been reading.
>> What am I missing?
>> mike
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 2:05 AM Andy Blunden
>> <andyb@marxists.org <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>> wrote:
>>
>> Collingwood is great. Hard to get hold of work I think.
>>
>> And yes, /Geist /is an activity. Many writers of our
>> day agree with that.
>>
>> andy
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> *Andy Blunden*
>> Hegel for Social Movements
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!QF2Dcu6tNVtc6QgFIIOvgcPzUedUPmYqhk6DpQSkkz2IHkcFeGKyJETmpyCEKAFo2KY2Qg$>
>> Home Page
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!QF2Dcu6tNVtc6QgFIIOvgcPzUedUPmYqhk6DpQSkkz2IHkcFeGKyJETmpyCEKAHghf0mpA$>
>>
>> On 24/07/2020 6:28 pm, WEBSTER, DAVID S. wrote:
>>> Mind, Hegel and Collingwood
>>>
>>> The mind seems to be not so much that which thinks
>>> as the thinking itself; it is not an active thing so
>>> much as an activity (Religion & Philosophy 1916
>>> p.100) - if you want to know the mind of a cobbler,
>>> then study the boots he has made
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf
>>> of Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org>
>>> <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>
>>> *Sent:* 24 July 2020 05:04
>>> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Philosophie des Geistes?
>>>
>>> There is nothing "crude" about Hegel's Philosophy of
>>> Spirit. It has almost innumerable grades of mind
>>> between the indeterminate "feeling" which might
>>> cause a new-born to cry without any kind of
>>> awareness, up to political action to resolve the
>>> social problem at the root of the "disturbance." All
>>> these are states of a whole body and its relation to
>>> its environment. Hegel does talk about "expulsion"
>>> where are person takes action - shouting, sobbing,
>>> .. - to relieve the feeling, a process which can be
>>> more or less rational. But he does not have a mental
>>> state over there and a body over there, or one
>>> expressing itself in the other. Probably my analogy
>>> of hand-waving was inappropriate. That's obviously
>>> not the same as your hair standing on end when you
>>> get a creepy feeling or the stomach ache which tells
>>> you it's dinner time.
>>>
>>> andy
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>> Hegel for Social Movements
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!SuCLv6fToTs8KM3N6g5Oqmfo51K9S2o9La2_xoAra5L1003TxFvIhV_9eW_a_u5bbHvFUA$>
>>> Home Page
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!SuCLv6fToTs8KM3N6g5Oqmfo51K9S2o9La2_xoAra5L1003TxFvIhV_9eW_a_u6pRGACdQ$>
>>>
>>> On 24/07/2020 7:01 am, David Kellogg wrote:
>>>> Well, it's not me turning it around, of course. The
>>>> James-Lange theory is what it is: you perceive
>>>> something, your viscera or vasomotor muscles
>>>> respond, and the emotion is the feeling of that
>>>> happening to you. Lange, at any rate, seems to be
>>>> thinking of the male sexual response.
>>>>
>>>> I think that's why Dewey says that Hegel's
>>>> anticipation of the theory is crude. Vygotsky
>>>> wouldn't (and doesn't) agree that an emotion is
>>>> "expressed". An emotion is not a mental state
>>>> of affairs expressed in physiological changes in
>>>> the viscera/vasomotor muscles or contrariwise a
>>>> change in the visceral/vascular state of
>>>> affairs expressed in a mental one. (For that very
>>>> reason, I think that Vygotsky wouldn't agree with
>>>> Andy's waving analogy....)
>>>>
>>>> Spinoza uses the term "affect" or
>>>> "affection" instead. It means more or less what it
>>>> sounds like: the way in which a body is affected by
>>>> the environment and vice versa. This can either
>>>> increase or decrease the potential for a body
>>>> for activity. The problem is that in order to make
>>>> this a theory of specifically human emotions, this
>>>> activity has to include the "activity" of making
>>>> meanings, and Spinoza can't seem to address THAT
>>>> issue without slipping into psycho-physical
>>>> parallelism. (Halliday can, though....)
>>>> :
>>>> David Kellogg
>>>> Sangmyung University
>>>>
>>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual
>>>> and a manifesto.
>>>> Outlines, Spring 2020
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!T4vkXB4gczFrrCtReqhNiHXdYrLreYwCliwQx8QgjlMKMq8cEf-1vEA3sh83JGDm_gZS6A$
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QLEoxL29F3RatvgkaIG1vsUhEgaWkdE-vCDs0vMv8gD5JVN33eCV8_ZTlPUZ5zPbYeeQHQ$>
>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S.
>>>> Vygotsky's Pedological Works/ /Volume One:
>>>> Foundations of Pedology/"
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!T4vkXB4gczFrrCtReqhNiHXdYrLreYwCliwQx8QgjlMKMq8cEf-1vEA3sh83JGCRmaFf0g$
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QLEoxL29F3RatvgkaIG1vsUhEgaWkdE-vCDs0vMv8gD5JVN33eCV8_ZTlPUZ5zOCrzEKFA$>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 8:19 PM Andy Blunden
>>>> <andyb@marxists.org <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> No, don't turn it around. The point is that
>>>> organs are subordinate parts of the whole
>>>> organism. The emotion /is/ the state of a whole
>>>> organism, in particular, a mental state. Like a
>>>> hand expresses a feeling when we wave to someone.
>>>>
>>>> andy
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>>> Hegel for Social Movements
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!W1x0zBm8fkXksY2M64OKgpNL_TPx1e8eTQyWJEtxUBueZNW1leqHSuR9yBEWIW_pdhtxwg$>
>>>> Home Page
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!W1x0zBm8fkXksY2M64OKgpNL_TPx1e8eTQyWJEtxUBueZNW1leqHSuR9yBEWIW9bL-5LGQ$>
>>>>
>>>> On 23/07/2020 8:55 pm, David Kellogg wrote:
>>>>> Thanks, Andy--this is it!
>>>>>
>>>>> "In physiology the viscera and the organs are
>>>>> treated merely as parts subservient to the
>>>>> animal organism; but they form at the same
>>>>> time a physical system for the expression of
>>>>> mental states, and in this way they get quite
>>>>> another interpretation."
>>>>>
>>>>> The only problem is the word "expression". In
>>>>> the James-Lange theory, the mental states are
>>>>> the expression of the viscera and the
>>>>> organs. But perhaps that's what Hegel really
>>>>> means here: the viscera and organs are a
>>>>> system that expresses a state which we
>>>>> interpret as an emotion.
>>>>>
>>>>> (I remember a dear friend of mine getting a
>>>>> messy divorce and remarking, when I worried
>>>>> that he was losing a lot of weight, that it
>>>>> wasn't his heart that was broken but his
>>>>> stomach....)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> David Kellogg
>>>>> Sangmyung University
>>>>>
>>>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A
>>>>> manual and a manifesto.
>>>>> Outlines, Spring 2020
>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!T4vkXB4gczFrrCtReqhNiHXdYrLreYwCliwQx8QgjlMKMq8cEf-1vEA3sh83JGDm_gZS6A$
>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!TttD-npmriYNiq_GkGHggjRPJwdnhAwRmpOFFclfTRlXC2fTkBviD-tAkaQPh-R8158beQ$>
>>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: /L.S.
>>>>> Vygotsky's Pedological Works/ /Volume One:
>>>>> Foundations of Pedology/"
>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!T4vkXB4gczFrrCtReqhNiHXdYrLreYwCliwQx8QgjlMKMq8cEf-1vEA3sh83JGCRmaFf0g$
>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!TttD-npmriYNiq_GkGHggjRPJwdnhAwRmpOFFclfTRlXC2fTkBviD-tAkaQPh-Q7yWc-iw$>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:19 PM Andy Blunden
>>>>> <andyb@marxists.org
>>>>> <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> If you're interested in s. 401, then
>>>>> you'll probably be interested in 402 as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> One other possibility: The "official" way
>>>>> of citing Hegel nowadays is to cite the
>>>>> page no. in the authoritative version of
>>>>> /Hegel Werke/. The German word for "page"
>>>>> is /Seite/, so you would say "S. 401" of
>>>>> the /Enc/, This turns out also to be an
>>>>> interesting passage of the Subjective
>>>>> Spirit, on Self-consciousness, concerned
>>>>> with the infamous Master-Slave dialectic,
>>>>> though in a much reduced form, not like in
>>>>> the /Phenomenology of Spirit/.
>>>>>
>>>>> See p. 401 in the other attachment,
>>>>> ENZYKl3.PDF, in German. English
>>>>> translation is here:
>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/suconsci.htm*SU428__;Iw!!Mih3wA!T4vkXB4gczFrrCtReqhNiHXdYrLreYwCliwQx8QgjlMKMq8cEf-1vEA3sh83JGAs45u8ew$
>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/suconsci.htm*SU428__;Iw!!Mih3wA!V5yS3WiqsE4SSOtcY1SJElXpnzzhFH035NnO1lZ49z3QJYH4kQO68Wccu2Y86C642xXiTQ$>
>>>>>
>>>>> Andy
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>>>> Hegel for Social Movements
>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!V5yS3WiqsE4SSOtcY1SJElXpnzzhFH035NnO1lZ49z3QJYH4kQO68Wccu2Y86C4MltIy3g$>
>>>>> Home Page
>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!V5yS3WiqsE4SSOtcY1SJElXpnzzhFH035NnO1lZ49z3QJYH4kQO68Wccu2Y86C7AtYM8hA$>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 23/07/2020 5:47 pm, Andy Blunden wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Philosophy of Spirit is the Third
>>>>>> Part of the Encyclopaedia, itself
>>>>>> composed of three parts:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Subjective Spirit, which is commonly
>>>>>> taken as Psychology
>>>>>> * Objective Spirit, which is commonly
>>>>>> taken as Social Theory, and
>>>>>> * Absolute Spirit, which covers Art,
>>>>>> religion, Science and Philosophy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Encyclopaedia has numbered
>>>>>> paragraphs. These do vary between 2 or
>>>>>> editions, but these will be limited
>>>>>> probably by those translated into English,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would start with the 1930 version"
>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/susoul.htm*SU401__;Iw!!Mih3wA!T4vkXB4gczFrrCtReqhNiHXdYrLreYwCliwQx8QgjlMKMq8cEf-1vEA3sh83JGD3-eI90A$
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/susoul.htm*SU401__;Iw!!Mih3wA!UcUFXSCRfRh-5aW0-7m25WJ_9mWTvjd1a6nOCEuF7RAbpt35sEPbx38XfvY3Rj0va8zujw$>
>>>>>> - a very early stage in the development
>>>>>> of mental life, or.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The 1817 version has
>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/sspirit.htm*SS399__;Iw!!Mih3wA!T4vkXB4gczFrrCtReqhNiHXdYrLreYwCliwQx8QgjlMKMq8cEf-1vEA3sh83JGBiiX5IPA$
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sp/sspirit.htm*SS399__;Iw!!Mih3wA!UcUFXSCRfRh-5aW0-7m25WJ_9mWTvjd1a6nOCEuF7RAbpt35sEPbx38XfvY3Rj24gIDBAA$>
>>>>>> - this version puts s. 401 at the
>>>>>> beginning of a version of Objective Spirit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The 1830 one, above, has a long Note to
>>>>>> it written by his students on the basis
>>>>>> of Hegel's lectures which is a long
>>>>>> discourse on the development of thinking
>>>>>> from sensation. I am thinking this is
>>>>>> what you mean. I will photocopy it and
>>>>>> send it on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>>>>> Hegel for Social Movements
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!UcUFXSCRfRh-5aW0-7m25WJ_9mWTvjd1a6nOCEuF7RAbpt35sEPbx38XfvY3Rj2Rs_DLCQ$>
>>>>>> Home Page
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!UcUFXSCRfRh-5aW0-7m25WJ_9mWTvjd1a6nOCEuF7RAbpt35sEPbx38XfvY3Rj0L0JHIrA$>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 23/07/2020 5:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote:
>>>>>>> We are trying to turn Vygotsky's
>>>>>>> "Teaching on Emotion" into one of those
>>>>>>> cartoon books that are so popular here
>>>>>>> in Korea (e.g. the "Why?" series). It's
>>>>>>> not Vygotsky for dummies, but it will
>>>>>>> have a lot of pictures with questions
>>>>>>> and answers alongside Vygotsky's rather
>>>>>>> difficult text.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We've got to figure out the text first.
>>>>>>> For example, what does John Dewey mean
>>>>>>> when he says:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "On the historical side, it may be worth
>>>>>>> noting that a crude anticipation of
>>>>>>> James' theory is found in Hegel's
>>>>>>> Philosophie des Geistes, 401."?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Did Hegel ever write a Philosophie des
>>>>>>> Geistes? If so, does the number refer to
>>>>>>> a page number or a section or what?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brocku.ca/MeadProject/Dewey/Dewey_1895.html__;!!Mih3wA!T4vkXB4gczFrrCtReqhNiHXdYrLreYwCliwQx8QgjlMKMq8cEf-1vEA3sh83JGA5DkBRwg$
>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brocku.ca/MeadProject/Dewey/Dewey_1895.html__;!!Mih3wA!RLGVUv48gomTR2KJ99jcR-ruYcur4TKLR3u-7WeR_HhShIfYJpHP0U7EwICkluTj4uvZOA$>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> David Kellogg
>>>>>>> Sangmyung University
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam:
>>>>>>> A manual and a manifesto.
>>>>>>> Outlines, Spring 2020
>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!T4vkXB4gczFrrCtReqhNiHXdYrLreYwCliwQx8QgjlMKMq8cEf-1vEA3sh83JGDm_gZS6A$
>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!RLGVUv48gomTR2KJ99jcR-ruYcur4TKLR3u-7WeR_HhShIfYJpHP0U7EwICkluSzhBnr9w$>
>>>>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov:
>>>>>>> /L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works/
>>>>>>> /Volume One: Foundations of Pedology/"
>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!T4vkXB4gczFrrCtReqhNiHXdYrLreYwCliwQx8QgjlMKMq8cEf-1vEA3sh83JGCRmaFf0g$
>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RLGVUv48gomTR2KJ99jcR-ruYcur4TKLR3u-7WeR_HhShIfYJpHP0U7EwICkluRBlvE9VA$>
>>>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>> IAngelus Novus
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelus_Novus__;!!Mih3wA!TdBQQPR-bTnIx9Yw4iUDrSZjBM8SLdsDSSgJWTB1zVuHNiaB834h-O5LHdkFFcAZeBSdQQ$>
>>
>> The Angel's View of History is looking as plausible in
>> 2020 as it did to Walter Benjamin & Klee in 1940
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------
>>
>> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!T4vkXB4gczFrrCtReqhNiHXdYrLreYwCliwQx8QgjlMKMq8cEf-1vEA3sh83JGAgdHvzcQ$
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!TdBQQPR-bTnIx9Yw4iUDrSZjBM8SLdsDSSgJWTB1zVuHNiaB834h-O5LHdkFFcB7eRB5Zw$>
>> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://re-generatingchat.com__;!!Mih3wA!TdBQQPR-bTnIx9Yw4iUDrSZjBM8SLdsDSSgJWTB1zVuHNiaB834h-O5LHdkFFcDhjnRRpA$>
>> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu
>> <http://lchc.ucsd.edu>.
>> Narrative history of LCHC: lchcautobio.ucsd.edu
>> <http://lchcautobio.ucsd.edu>.
>>
>>
>>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200728/b4990546/attachment.html
More information about the xmca-l
mailing list