[Xmca-l] Re: The vibrations of consciousness

[Harshad Dave]

Hi all there,

I hope I do not interfere with the subject matter of discussion by writing
this message. Here, while reading the messages exchanging views/thoughts on
the subject topic, somewhere during the discussion, I learned the
participant asks for the definition of the word used in the view/message.
If I recall, in the recent past, when we were discussing one issue,
Annalisa also repeatedly asked for the definition of the words I used in my
saying. As I did not want to lose the tract of my saying I did not respond
to her request as asked for. Here, I agree with David and put my views as
follows.

If we just treat (symbolically) a word as a cell of a living body, then the
language is the body of the word. The established relations between a word
and the language might be just compared symbolically with the cell and the
living body respectively. Now, if we agree that the path of development of
the body as well as the cell has linked both with evolved relations and
dependency on each other, likewise the word and language have also evolved
through such a historical path.

Even today, the comprehension (understanding) for any word might vary
person to person. If not sure, there are fair chances of getting the word
grasped by two different persons with a marginal difference as two persons
are with different mindset. The grasping and the application of a word in
communications might contract a difference in meaning at two places falling
apart at some distance. The evolutionary history of language is no less
complex than that of mankind and social development.

The subjects of science and mathematics need some precise and stable level
of meaning and some words are well defined there in the
science/mathematical subjects. But, the validity and linking of the
definition of such scientific words are limited up to the subjects only. It
is because the topics of science and mathematics are not linked with human
characteristics, emotions, sentiments, feelings and the mindset of the man.
While our discussion and thought process is always on such topics/issues
that have strong links with human characteristics, mindset and other
biological parameters as above. A thinker/philosopher cannot set aside the
above human values. This helplessness will never allow us to define any
word/term used in our discussion, and, if it is defined, the
thinkers/writers free thought flow will find suffocation by this definition
during further discourse of his task. It is the writer's duty, honesty and
self discipline to adhere with the logical meaning of the word used in his
arguments/presentation uniformly. However, I understand the root source of
the demand of Annalisa for the definition of any word used in the
discussion, but my view in this regard is as follow…

When there is a presentation of views by any thinker on any topic, it is
obligatory to comply with a self discipline that the writer should not walk
on the path with an intention to prove his point of view by any ways and
means. The views might be erroneous or wrong, it is not an issue but any
argument against the views should not be countered with the help of making
a departure from the popular and wise logical meaning of the word used by
him in the subject discussion. As a responsible thinker and writer one
should use a word with its popular, wisdomful and logically supported
meaning without definition and same should be adhered with positively and
frankly even if critiques might compel to correct the view/thought, there
should not be any hesitation. I believe that a thinker/writer free from
this botheration will have fair chances to adhere with the spine of the
subject matter (topic) while presenting his views. When the task of a
writer becomes more tense by accurately defining words and then after
keeping every nerve keeping alert to comply the given definitions in
his/her writing views/thoughts, the thinker (writer) will surely feel as if
he/she is facing *a court proceedings that has all the bearings of verdict
on any contradiction if emerges with reference to the definition*. Here I
say the author/thinker/writer will lose the direction of his concentration
instead of resting on the prime line of the subject matter, he/she will
sacrifice his/her all the intellectual potential at the wrong place.

On the other hand, I believe it is the equal responsibility of a reader to
adhere to the wisdomful and logical meaning of the word used in the writing
by a thinker. If a reader pretends to read an article with a motive to
learn the message or views that the writers intended to give in his/her
article, but, the attitude of the reader is to catch him/her (thinker) by
any means where he/she is missing/contradicting somewhere, then his/her
unconscious motive surely tempts him/her to define everything accurately,
instead of concentrating on “What exactly the writer wants to present?”.

Here, I recall the words of Abraham Lincoln “The true rule, in determining
to embrace, or reject any thing, is not whether it has any evil in it; but
whether it has more of evil, than of good. There are few things wholly
evil, or wholly good.”

Regards,
Harshad Dave

On Sat, Jul 25, 2020 at 2:49 AM David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com> wrote:

> Andy's point about consciousness not having any "genera" which we might
> "specify" is related to a point I always have when people ask for
> definitions. What exactly is this definition for? One rather
> Talmudic reason why people like to define terms at the beginning of a
> discussion is so we can tell when folks are off topic ("clouds" and
> "lithosphere" do not belong to the realm of consciousness,
> Annalisa--naughty, naughty, naughly!) Another reason is so that we can
> decide whether particular discourses involve metaphor, sleight-of-hand,
> demagogery (the use of war rhetoric against a virus; conspiracy theories in
> general assume that all human events of consequence are the result of
> conscious ill will). But a third reason is so that we can decide where
> something comes from and determine the precise moment it starts being what
> it is (when does something that is not conscious acquire consciousness?)  I
> think you can see that the first reason for defining contradicts the third
> one. That is, ruling this or that subject matter off topic will prevent you
> from ever finding something that is both not consciousness and
> consciousness.
>
> Halliday said that everything around us can be thought of as either matter
> or as meaning, and he thought whether matter and meaning are the same
> thing was an open question. For me, it is the question that Spinoza
> answered. We are anthropo-centric and so we tend to think of meaning as
> linguistic, as symbolism, as deliberate representations: making "this"
> stand for "that". But of course for most of time meaning-making was not
> deliberate in this way: red leaves in fall do not "stand for" winter,
> although they certainly came to mean that for hibernating animals, and the
> relationship between the physical changes that James and Lange (and Dewey
> and Hegel) are talking about are probably related to emotions in the same
> way. Meaning is organization; it is the defiance of entropy, and the very
> fact that both matter and information have entropy and defy it shows that
> Spinoza is right: everything around us can be thought of as either matter
> or as meaning, or as increasing or decreasing in entropy. Consciousness is
> simply the higest form of meaning-making, the most egregious and obvious
> way of flouting the second law of thermodynamics. That is why clouds mean
> rain, but in the long run--they don't; that is why the lithosphere means
> time, but in the long run it won't.
>
> David Kellogg
> Sangmyung University
>
> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto.
> Outlines, Spring 2020
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!RdBa_SEyvQztCKm4WK7wxvQwCQmnpx0zO8yKbYXFYQ3LeT3SkeY_TFPOn5MVvcVwB5OyAA$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QX8A4s_69fPqrKgXcc7ABLWKBuAXO9ymR1-vTutmK9dbsKDeH-iDriK2EMxNudCBwKNwFg$>
> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume
> One: Foundations of Pedology*"
>  https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RdBa_SEyvQztCKm4WK7wxvQwCQmnpx0zO8yKbYXFYQ3LeT3SkeY_TFPOn5MVvcUaLUGARw$ 
>
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QX8A4s_69fPqrKgXcc7ABLWKBuAXO9ymR1-vTutmK9dbsKDeH-iDriK2EMxNudB9vcXqMw$>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 1:06 PM Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:
>
>> For Marxism, Annalisa, "consciousness" is an all-embracing category. It
>> does not refer to any specific "part" of the mind such as awareness, or in
>> distinction from some *other* part of the mind such as the Unconscious.
>> It is difficult to define because there is nothing more basic in terms of
>> which "consciousness" could be defined other than abstractions which in
>> turn rely on the concept of consciousness. So only a general sense can be
>> given.
>>
>> Andy
>> ------------------------------
>> *Andy Blunden*
>> Hegel for Social Movements
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!XbYmB_z-uAeKpBg65taY2coYM7CzQSY1YdCNcBXjyiEOpXFgKAtWeHcSCmw7d5vYPfRuZw$>
>> Home Page
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!XbYmB_z-uAeKpBg65taY2coYM7CzQSY1YdCNcBXjyiEOpXFgKAtWeHcSCmw7d5uE8rAzSA$>
>> On 24/07/2020 5:05 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote:
>>
>> Hi Mike,
>>
>> Thank you for that!
>>
>> Of course then, my question is, what is the definition of "relationship"?
>>
>> Is there a relationship between the clouds and the lithosphere of the
>> earth? Would that mean that the clouds and earth are conscious?
>>
>> Another question I might offer, is perception a requisite for
>> consciousness?
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Annalisa
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu>
>> <mcole@ucsd.edu>
>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 23, 2020 11:04 AM
>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: The vibrations of consciousness
>>
>>
>> *  [EXTERNAL]*
>> Annalisa -
>>
>> I am sure there are more ways that LSV thought of consciousness,  but a
>> la marx,  I believe its "human being's relationship to
>> the environment"..... the rest of nature. Plenty of room for vibrations
>> in that formulation.
>> mike
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 10:00 AM Annalisa Aguilar <annalisa@unm.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hello Xmcars,
>>
>> I'm not sure what the connection is but it seems there is one between
>> consciousness and art-making with AI, and 3D printers.
>>
>> This article (2018) about consciousness is from The Conversation. Perhaps
>> you might also like to read it:
>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://theconversation.com/could-consciousness-all-come-down-to-the-way-things-vibrate-103070__;!!Mih3wA!RdBa_SEyvQztCKm4WK7wxvQwCQmnpx0zO8yKbYXFYQ3LeT3SkeY_TFPOn5MVvcWTgKzB2A$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://theconversation.com/could-consciousness-all-come-down-to-the-way-things-vibrate-103070__;!!Mih3wA!TZlto8nrkoF8DlozCb-AGO-XOQFqazTIeHOkpr51jiE65n6raRLlJgEMCUwsPhiNZIn0wA$>
>>
>> and a more recent one from last year by the same author is here:
>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://theconversation.com/how-can-you-tell-if-another-person-animal-or-thing-is-conscious-try-these-3-tests-115835__;!!Mih3wA!RdBa_SEyvQztCKm4WK7wxvQwCQmnpx0zO8yKbYXFYQ3LeT3SkeY_TFPOn5MVvcWYgrRxIQ$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://theconversation.com/how-can-you-tell-if-another-person-animal-or-thing-is-conscious-try-these-3-tests-115835__;!!Mih3wA!TZlto8nrkoF8DlozCb-AGO-XOQFqazTIeHOkpr51jiE65n6raRLlJgEMCUwsPhjcpwvgAw$>
>>
>> I'm curious how Vygotsky defined consciousness? I'm not recollecting it
>> at the moment. Maybe Andy could explain?
>>
>> On a different related topic I stumbled on these articles on AI created
>> artwork:
>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://theconversation.com/when-the-line-between-machine-and-artist-becomes-blurred-103149__;!!Mih3wA!RdBa_SEyvQztCKm4WK7wxvQwCQmnpx0zO8yKbYXFYQ3LeT3SkeY_TFPOn5MVvcXAUzbGbw$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://theconversation.com/when-the-line-between-machine-and-artist-becomes-blurred-103149__;!!Mih3wA!TZlto8nrkoF8DlozCb-AGO-XOQFqazTIeHOkpr51jiE65n6raRLlJgEMCUwsPhjzG5V5uQ$>
>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/25/arts/design/ai-art-sold-christies.html__;!!Mih3wA!RdBa_SEyvQztCKm4WK7wxvQwCQmnpx0zO8yKbYXFYQ3LeT3SkeY_TFPOn5MVvcVoFHm4uQ$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/25/arts/design/ai-art-sold-christies.html__;!!Mih3wA!TZlto8nrkoF8DlozCb-AGO-XOQFqazTIeHOkpr51jiE65n6raRLlJgEMCUwsPhgx_FIiKg$>
>>
>> What happens to labor as defined by Marx when the computer or the robot
>> end up overriding human craft and labor? Is it a development in which value
>> shifts? or is it the equation that determines value remains the same with
>> different exponentially-numbered inputs that provides a different salient
>> output?
>>
>> AI seems to be a kind of mirror-neuron wind up toy, if only because the
>> inputs are required first in order to come up with simulacra outputs to
>> then be considered art (by Christie's, no less).
>>
>> This made me consider 3-D printers as well. If someone can take a car
>> part, scan it, and re-print the part for pennies, I'd guess that auto
>> manufacturing is about to explode from this technological change.
>>
>> I'm wondering what Walter Benjamin would think about AI created
>> portraiture (I'm thinking specifically about his wonderful essay on art
>> here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://web.mit.edu/allanmc/www/benjamin.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!RdBa_SEyvQztCKm4WK7wxvQwCQmnpx0zO8yKbYXFYQ3LeT3SkeY_TFPOn5MVvcWhzZUI3Q$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://web.mit.edu/allanmc/www/benjamin.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!TZlto8nrkoF8DlozCb-AGO-XOQFqazTIeHOkpr51jiE65n6raRLlJgEMCUwsPhi28s3Zbg$>
>> ), but what about reproduction of the reproduction of car parts? I pause as
>> I consider the future of manufacturing parts that used to require large
>> iron forges, machinery, welding, engineering, etc.
>>
>> If there are printing communities that spring up to print parts (and
>> there are) and they could conceivably create a car not much above the value
>> of the steel materials, what happens to General Motors? Will it suffer the
>> same demise as Kodak?
>>
>> I noticed that HP is coming out with industrial printers that seem to
>> indicate the arrival of this sort of change:
>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www8.hp.com/us/en/printers/3d-printers/products/multi-jet-fusion-5200.html__;!!Mih3wA!RdBa_SEyvQztCKm4WK7wxvQwCQmnpx0zO8yKbYXFYQ3LeT3SkeY_TFPOn5MVvcVgbB6kiA$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www8.hp.com/us/en/printers/3d-printers/products/multi-jet-fusion-5200.html__;!!Mih3wA!TZlto8nrkoF8DlozCb-AGO-XOQFqazTIeHOkpr51jiE65n6raRLlJgEMCUwsPhhTORRgXA$>
>>
>> There have been online communities that show how to make one's own 3-D
>> printer. So I wonder how this innovation will become absorbed into
>> manufacturing?
>>
>> Remember the desktop publishing revolution?
>>
>> This quote by Paul Valéry opens Benjamin's essay and reflects relevance
>> to my questions:
>>
>> “Our fine arts were developed, their types and uses were established, in
>> times very different from the present, by men whose power of action upon
>> things was insignificant in comparison with ours. But the amazing growth
>> of our techniques, the adaptability and precision they have attained,
>> the ideas and habits they are creating, make it a certainty that
>> profound changes are impending in the ancient craft of the Beautiful. In
>> all the arts there is a physical component which can no longer be
>> considered or treated as it used to be, which cannot remain unaffected
>> by our modern knowledge and power. For the last twenty years neither
>> matter nor space nor time has been what it was from time immemorial. We
>> must expect great innovations to transform the entire technique of the
>> arts, thereby affecting artistic invention itself and perhaps even
>> bringing about an amazing change in our very notion of art.”*
>>
>>
>> Paul Valéry, PIÈCES SUR L’ART
>> “Le Conquete de l’ubiquité,” Paris.
>>
>>
>> I look forward to hearing the sparkling conversations these articles
>> might inspire.
>>
>> Do tell.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Annalisa
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> I[image: Angelus Novus]
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelus_Novus__;!!Mih3wA!QKYWsd2osOCt7VWAmlDhv9LZLVufjS0x09zcmmUeIudHX_TAW1dvHFbFUNJETZr_XMveQQ$>
>>
>> The Angel's View of History is looking as plausible in 2020 as it did to
>> Walter Benjamin & Klee in 1940
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------
>> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!RdBa_SEyvQztCKm4WK7wxvQwCQmnpx0zO8yKbYXFYQ3LeT3SkeY_TFPOn5MVvcWjipMbuQ$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!QKYWsd2osOCt7VWAmlDhv9LZLVufjS0x09zcmmUeIudHX_TAW1dvHFbFUNJETZp2QOjRvg$>
>> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://re-generatingchat.com__;!!Mih3wA!QKYWsd2osOCt7VWAmlDhv9LZLVufjS0x09zcmmUeIudHX_TAW1dvHFbFUNJETZoCGayATg$>
>> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu.
>> Narrative history of LCHC:  lchcautobio.ucsd.edu.
>>
>>
>>
>>
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