[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology?
Andy Blunden
andyb@marxists.org
Sat Jan 18 18:47:20 PST 2020
I recently read "The Last Man in Europe" alongside "1984."
The world has changed though. I think dangers come from
different directions than they did in Orwell's day, but his
example of intellectual honesty, ruthless scepticism and
integrity will remain forever.
And yes. At the same time as our settler version of land
care is burning the continent to death, our Home Affairs
Minister has asked the Federal Police to investigate Bruce
Pascoe, an outstanding advocate for indigenous land care
practices. However, I do hear that our spineless, corrupt
and paralysed government has promised to meet with
indigenous fire managers next week, after having refused to
meet with the Fire Chiefs for several months!
Andy
------------------------------------------------------------
*Andy Blunden*
Hegel for Social Movements <https://brill.com/view/title/54574>
Home Page <https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm>
On 19/01/2020 12:22 pm, Martin Packer wrote:
>>
>> Foucault is the modern version of quietism.
>>
>> Andy
>>
> I don’t know about that, Andy. After all, it was Foucault
> who proposed that “Power is everywhere; not because it
> embraces everything, but because it comes from
> everywhere…. it is always local and unstable.” We should
> study power, he suggests, by looking at resistance. The
> aim of investigation, in his view, is critique, which
> should arise from “subjugated knowledges” and should
> oppose the authority of those who would oppress, in order
> to promote new forms of subjectivity.
>
> This thread began with a question (Andy’s) about
> psychology as technology, as tool. If Rob is right, and
> any tool can be used for any purpose, then any psychology
> could be used for good or bad. But if I use a hammer to
> make pancakes no one will want to eat them; most tools are
> designed for specific purposes. That leaves us with the
> question of whether a CHAT psychology designed to foster
> self-control — a kind of inverse behaviorism, helping
> people master their own minds rather than controlling the
> behavior of others — is what we are looking for, for the
> tasks at hand today. Andy, your previous message suggests
> that a psychology that ignores social context will fall
> into contradictions in its definition of ‘self-control.’
> Various people have tried to fill the gap that Vygotsky
> left in CHAT by not saying much about the social context
> of his time. Do we now have a technologically adequate
> psychology?
>
> Here is a BBC program about the complex circumstances that
> led to the writing of 1984. Orwell, it seems to me,
> proposed that while a totalitarian state appreciates (and
> expects) blind obedience, what it values more — and what
> it deploys its technology to achieve — is conscious,
> deliberate obedience. Yet Foucault might add that western
> consumer culture values, and derives power from, the
> illusion of freedom created by promising people unlimited
> choice in various markets… (John Watson, of course, became
> an advertising executive.)
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01qhb8b
>
> And here is an article on the way the technocratic moves
> to ‘master’ nature led to disaster in Australia, and a
> return to ‘traditional’ practices may be the way forward.
>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/16/world/australia/aboriginal-fire-management.html
>
>
> Martin (still puzzled)
>
>
>
>
>> On Jan 18, 2020, at 7:35 PM, Andy Blunden
>> <andyb@marxists.org <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>> wrote:
>>
>> Foucault is the modern version of quietism.
>>
>> Andy
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> *Andy Blunden*
>> Hegel for Social Movements
>> <https://brill.com/view/title/54574>
>> Home Page
>> <https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm>
>> On 19/01/2020 10:32 am,robsub@ariadne.org.ukwrote:
>>> Is this not Foucault's concept of governmentality? In
>>> other words *you* control yourself the way *they* want
>>> you to.
>>>
>>> Can "self-control" be regarded as a tool? Then, like all
>>> tools, the purpose for which it is used depends on the user.
>>>
>>> Rob
>>>
>>> On 18/01/2020 20:48, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote:
>>>> Martin, (just catched your post quickly), I think your
>>>> example makes it quite clear that self control and
>>>> emancipation are not the same, right? Rhat is sort of
>>>> what I was getting into when a few posts ago I pointed
>>>> out that a lot of the meta-cognition and critical
>>>> thinking etc… has made it to mainstream education for a
>>>> good while now, including the so-called 21^st century
>>>> skills, and yet, I would not consider much of what is
>>>> done in formal education (and much of what is raised in
>>>> educational research) as having that “higher” moral
>>>> character implied in the notion of emancipation (not to
>>>> free oneself from conditions, which I think is what
>>>> Haydi is getting at), and apparently much of what has
>>>> been taught hasn’t been very useful for surviving the
>>>> 21^st century…
>>>> Haydi, thanks for your careful response and patience.
>>>> Michael, what you just wrote (about being vs becoming),
>>>> which is very much to the point, reminded me of Ortega
>>>> y Gasset’s: “The only thing that is given to us and
>>>> that is when there is human life is the having to make
>>>> it … Life is a task”
>>>> Alfredo
>>>> *From:*<xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>on behalf of
>>>> Martin Packer<mpacker@cantab.net>
>>>> *Reply to:*"eXtended Mind, Culture,
>>>> Activity"<xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>> *Date:*Saturday, 18 January 2020 at 21:37
>>>> *To:*"eXtended Mind, Culture,
>>>> Activity"<xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>> *Subject:*[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology?
>>>> Tell me if I am inadvertently highjacking the thread
>>>> here, but something that has puzzled me for some time
>>>> is this. If someone becomes able to control their own
>>>> behavior, is this necessarily emancipatory? A child can
>>>> engage in self-control in order to do something
>>>> completely new, something that transforms their own
>>>> ecology and opens up new possibilities for themselves
>>>> and other people. True. But equally, a child can engage
>>>> in self-control in order to do precisely what their
>>>> caregiver (or their government) wants and tells them to
>>>> do. Are these both emancipatory? Are these both
>>>> examples of ‘executive function’? Are they both
>>>> occasions of the higher psychological functions
>>>> (deliberate and conscious)?
>>>> Puzzled...
>>>> Martin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 17, 2020, at 1:57 PM, Peter Feigenbaum
>>>> <pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
>>>> <mailto:pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu>> wrote:
>>>> Michael and Andy,
>>>> If you'll permit me to jump into this conversation,
>>>> I can help answer Michael's questions. As a
>>>> long-time researcher of private (egocentric)
>>>> speech, I see Vygotsky's theoretical assertions
>>>> about the movement inward of signs (or, more
>>>> precisely, the externally existing social system of
>>>> speech communication) during child development as
>>>> standing in sharp contrast to the nativist
>>>> assertions that verbal thinking is an inborn
>>>> biological system. But more pertinent to your
>>>> discussion, by placing the source of human verbal
>>>> thinking in the social sphere rather than the
>>>> biological sphere, Vygotsky also embraces the
>>>> primary function of signs as a social means for
>>>> controlling the consciousness of others. What
>>>> happens during the development of private speech is
>>>> that this artificially created means of social
>>>> control of others passes to the child as part of
>>>> the process of acquiring the system of speech
>>>> communication. As a derivative of the primary
>>>> function of signs, inner speech becomes a child's
>>>> means of controlling his or her own consciousness.
>>>> Possessing control over one's own consciousness is
>>>> nothing less than emancipatory. Neat trick, eh?
>>>> Sorry to intervene! Carry on.
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Peter
>>>> On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 11:57 AM Glassman, Michael
>>>> <glassman.13@osu.edu <mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> This is interesting Andy. What strikes me as I
>>>> read it is the sentence “Its theoretical goal
>>>> is the prediction and control of behavior.”
>>>> These days I see Vygotsky as advocating for
>>>> thinking as a tool that can predict and control
>>>> the ecology. Of course Watson is saying (like
>>>> most behaviorists) you can’t go inside the
>>>> head. Is Vygotsky saying that internalized
>>>> tools are the same as external tools? Is that
>>>> why he emphasizes the initial external to
>>>> internal migrations of tools we use to control
>>>> the ecology around us? Was he trying to split
>>>> this differences, you can go inside the head if
>>>> you accept that was is inside the head is a
>>>> consequence of what is outside the head? For me
>>>> it puts the whole idea of contextualism in a
>>>> different light.
>>>> Michael
>>>> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu><xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>>*On
>>>> Behalf Of*Andy Blunden
>>>> *Sent:*Thursday, January 16, 2020 6:06 PM
>>>> *To:*xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>> *Subject:*[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology?
>>>> Here is what J B Watson had to say about
>>>> Behaviourism:
>>>>
>>>> “Psychology as the behaviorist views it is
>>>> a purely objective experimental branch of
>>>> natural science. Its theoretical goal is
>>>> the prediction and control of behavior.
>>>> Introspection forms no essential part of
>>>> its methods, nor is the scientific value of
>>>> its data dependent upon the readiness with
>>>> which they lend themselves to
>>>> interpretation in terms of consciousness.
>>>> The behaviorist, in his efforts to get a
>>>> unitary scheme of animal response,
>>>> recognizes no dividing line between man and
>>>> brute” (‘Psychology as the Behaviorist
>>>> Views it’, 1913)
>>>>
>>>> Andy
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>>> Hegel for Social Movements
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!KGKeukY!kAhm2-MhmeEb01UGseDSvAZrvZnJtObSQddV0XOYmjieDbMEOEMJQ1-jaTJz_kABKaH3hjUn$>
>>>> Home Page
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!KGKeukY!kAhm2-MhmeEb01UGseDSvAZrvZnJtObSQddV0XOYmjieDbMEOEMJQ1-jaTJz_kABKUW5Le1w$>
>>>> On 17/01/2020 3:13 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote:
>>>>
>>>> What you write makes sense to me, Michael.
>>>> I meant behaviorism as a science of control
>>>> from a pedagogy perspective. I use to raise
>>>> the question “what type of pedagogy do
>>>> arrive at when you take the S-R scheme (and
>>>> conditioning) as your main explanatory
>>>> scheme?” If you raise the same question
>>>> from a sociocultural perspective, the
>>>> answer is quite different, and allows for
>>>> issues of freedom in a whole new light.
>>>> In terms of Vygotsky’s positions, I think
>>>> you render a valid reading.
>>>> Although I think that today’s school
>>>> curricula in most countries are quite
>>>> explicit on the importance of the
>>>> “adaptable thinking skills” that you refer
>>>> to, rather than on educating for jobs
>>>> (although I can see that is still the
>>>> underlying assumption). You can read about
>>>> those skills in the so-called XXIst century
>>>> skills, very extended in recent educational
>>>> reforms (including critical thinking
>>>> skills, creativity, collaborative skills,
>>>> digital skills…). I am afraid, though, that
>>>> the ecosocial crises that we are facing are
>>>> very quickly and patently showing how
>>>> narrow our understandings of the sort of
>>>> skills needed to survive in the XXIst
>>>> century are. I think that what the climate
>>>> crisis is showing us is that we need to
>>>> connect those notions of thinking with the
>>>> practical socio-economical organization of
>>>> power and of the relations of humans with
>>>> nature. I don’t remember now where I read
>>>> that a scientist had been including spikes
>>>> of civil activism, disobedience, and social
>>>> disrest in his/her climate prediction
>>>> computer models, and was showing that these
>>>> were the only variables that may have a
>>>> largest, quickest effect in achieving the
>>>> gas emission reductions needed (if you can
>>>> reduce the solution to reducing gas
>>>> emissions…). I think events today are
>>>> re-writing the way “progressing towards a
>>>> modern world” made concious thinking more
>>>> relevant… But this is a digression, sorry!
>>>> Alfredo
>>>> *From:*<xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>on
>>>> behalf of "Glassman,
>>>> Michael"<glassman.13@osu.edu>
>>>> <mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu>
>>>> *Reply to:*"eXtended Mind, Culture,
>>>> Activity"<xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>> *Date:*Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 15:49
>>>> *To:*"eXtended Mind, Culture,
>>>> Activity"<xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>> *Subject:*[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology?
>>>> Hi Alfredo and Andy,
>>>> I am not sure I agree with this
>>>> characterization of behaviorism. Especially
>>>> at the time he was writing behaviorism was
>>>> for the most part I think focusing on the
>>>> behaviors of individuals rather than going
>>>> inside the head to understand what
>>>> individuals did. It cast quite a wide net,
>>>> from Thorndike to Mead. But I don’t think
>>>> at this point that Vygotsky had a dog in a
>>>> cognitive/behaviorist fight (maybe I am
>>>> wrong). I sort of see Vygotsky at this
>>>> point as not so much discussing control of
>>>> individuals by those outside them (at least
>>>> not directly) but the ways individuals are
>>>> able to control the ecologies around them.
>>>> He sees this occurring in two possible
>>>> ways, being able to use internalized tools
>>>> in order to directly control the ecology,
>>>> and being able to control their own
>>>> thinking so that they can actually play
>>>> (not the right word) with these
>>>> internalized symbols before applying them.
>>>> He has not difficulty with the former, and
>>>> all that is really necessary is to be
>>>> taught different applications for limited
>>>> situations. But as we progressed to a
>>>> modern world the ability to lead a
>>>> satisfactory life from a small set of
>>>> applications you might say becomes more and
>>>> more difficult. Humans developed more
>>>> abstract thinking, controlling their
>>>> thoughts to deal with a quickly changing
>>>> and heterogenous ecology, but this demanded
>>>> conscious effort on the part of social
>>>> interlocutors (formal teaching). The
>>>> difficulty he raises in the socialist
>>>> alteration of man is that this type of
>>>> conscious effort was limited to only a
>>>> small population that then used their more
>>>> adaptable thinking skills (I am hesitant to
>>>> say advanced) to manipulate (to
>>>> differentiate from control) those who were
>>>> on the lower rungs of society. I mean we
>>>> continue to do this today when we argue to
>>>> educate students for specific jobs but do
>>>> not offer broader education in thinking
>>>> (there is nothing wrong in training in
>>>> skills such as mechanics and plumbing, but
>>>> unless we teach people to manipulate their
>>>> thinking about those skills they will never
>>>> really have control of what they do in a
>>>> complex society. I don’t think that is what
>>>> Vygotsky was writing about in Crisis, but
>>>> it does set up a road map for where he
>>>> wants to go, which I actually think you can
>>>> see in part even in his dissertation on Hamlet.
>>>> Michael
>>>> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu><xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>*On
>>>> Behalf Of*Alfredo Jornet Gil
>>>> *Sent:*Thursday, January 16, 2020 7:34 AM
>>>> *To:*eXtended Mind, Culture,
>>>> Activity<xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>> *Subject:*[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology?
>>>> Andy, all,
>>>> Behaviorism as the science of controlling
>>>> people, as the opposite of an emancipatory
>>>> science, is exactly how I teach it in my
>>>> learning theory courses. I too find the
>>>> most useful reading of Vygotsky’s attempts
>>>> as aiming at an emancipatory science,
>>>> although clearly the instrumental bend in
>>>> some of the formulations gets in the way,
>>>> including the terminology of “control” that
>>>> also characterized, for example, Dewey’s
>>>> ideas on inquiry. “The artificial control
>>>> of behavior” could for example be as well
>>>> formulated as the object-oriented activity
>>>> of a social movement, which precisely aims
>>>> to gain “control” over conditions for
>>>> development; only that “control” might be a
>>>> quite misleading way of posing it…
>>>> Alfredo
>>>> *From:*<xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>>> on behalf of Andy Blunden
>>>> <andyb@marxists.org
>>>> <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>>
>>>> *Reply to:*"eXtended Mind, Culture,
>>>> Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>>> *Date:*Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 12:52
>>>> *To:*"xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>"
>>>> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>>> *Subject:*[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology?
>>>> Michael, I simply take Vygotsky at his
>>>> (translated) word. He wants "a scientific
>>>> theory which would lead to the
>>>> subordination and mastery of the mind, to
>>>> the artificial control of behaviour" and
>>>> whether he likes Munsterberg or personality
>>>> testing for jobs is, to me, irrelevant.
>>>> Now there/is/an ambiguity in Vygotsky's
>>>> claim. Behaviourism, for example, I would
>>>> define as the science of controlling
>>>> people, and as such is the opposite of an
>>>> emancipatory science. What Vygotsky is
>>>> mainly interested in, on the other hand, is
>>>> giving to people the capacity to
>>>> control/their own/mind. But this is not
>>>> clear from the above, and maybe Vygotsky
>>>> himself wasn't clear. His writing on
>>>> "socialist man" and the business with lie
>>>> detectors suggest that there were some
>>>> blind spots there.
>>>> Anyway, I was only interested in using the
>>>> quote for my own purposes in contrasting
>>>> the academic literature on "social Movement
>>>> Studies" and that genre of social movement
>>>> literature written by and for activist,
>>>> which is usually narrative or
>>>> autobiographical in style, and in the above
>>>> sense "technic" rather than "epistemology."
>>>> Andy
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>>> Hegel for Social Movements
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!KGKeukY!mrT6LtMASo6iMbjfKmsIkMmzZQzGLVGZkfw0x1WC8SwszUCXq-0wxCJX5hQJe8BHX5U$>
>>>> Home Page
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!KGKeukY!mrT6LtMASo6iMbjfKmsIkMmzZQzGLVGZkfw0x1WC8SwszUCXq-0wxCJX5hQJhs-ll44$>
>>>> On 16/01/2020 6:42 am, Glassman, Michael wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I don’t know, the sense I get is that
>>>> he was really criticizing Musterberg,
>>>> not embracing him, at least from what I
>>>> read in Crisis. Vygotsky seems to
>>>> believe we should be wary of this idea
>>>> of a practical psychology that can use
>>>> empirical means to look predict human
>>>> behavior. One hint I get from the piece
>>>> is his mention of using practical
>>>> psychology to determine whether people
>>>> should be tram drivers. To me it sounds
>>>> like he was arguing also against the
>>>> rising use of intelligence tests as a
>>>> psychological tool. James brought over
>>>> Musterberg in part I think to explore
>>>> the idea of empirical psychology and
>>>> Musterberg it seems wound up merging
>>>> empirical and practical in ways that
>>>> Vygotsky thought might be detrimental,
>>>> rightfully suggesting it would send
>>>> psychology towards the types of
>>>> practical models of the physical
>>>> sciences where it did not belong,
>>>> something that I think has plagued the
>>>> field since. At least from my reading
>>>> of this piece is that Vygotsky also
>>>> found it confusing that Musterberg by
>>>> following James was also grabbing hold
>>>> of an idealist vision of psychology,
>>>> that people behave in certain ways
>>>> because they were human. Vygotsky
>>>> seemed to think that there was no way
>>>> to reconcile this. At this moment I see
>>>> this as sort of a precursor of where
>>>> Vygotsky wanted to go, finding a way to
>>>> merge the idealist vision with a
>>>> material approach but not falling into
>>>> a trap in either direction. He did not
>>>> want to be Wundt and he did not want to
>>>> be Musterberg, he definitely wanted
>>>> nothing to do with the intelligence
>>>> testers who combined “empirical” and
>>>> practical psychology for ideological
>>>> reasons (just recently heard about
>>>> Thomas Teo’s idea of epistemic
>>>> violence. I think that might fit in here).
>>>> Michael
>>>> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu><xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>*On
>>>> Behalf Of*Jussi Silvonen
>>>> *Sent:*Wednesday, January 15, 2020 1:15 PM
>>>> *To:*mike cole<mcole@ucsd.edu>
>>>> <mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu>; eXtended Mind,
>>>> Culture,
>>>> Activity<xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>> *Subject:*[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology?
>>>> Mike,
>>>> take a look at Internet Archive
>>>> (archive.org <http://archive.org/>),
>>>> you can find PDF files of most of
>>>> Münsterberg's books there. It is
>>>> obvious, that Müsterberg had a great
>>>> influence on LSV, at least in his
>>>> theory's instrumental phase.
>>>> JusSi
>>>> ----------------
>>>> Jussi Silvonen
>>>> Dosentti
>>>> Itä-Suomen yliopisto, Joensuun kampus
>>>> Kasvatustieteiden ja psykologian osasto
>>>> PL 111 (Metria)
>>>> 80101 Joensuu
>>>> ------------------
>>>> https://wiki.uef.fi/display/~jsilvone@uef.fi/Home
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/wiki.uef.fi/display/*jsilvone@uef.fi/Home__;fg!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIe9sFnfP$>
>>>> https://uef.academia.edu/JussiSilvonen
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/uef.academia.edu/JussiSilvonen__;!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIREamwTv$>
>>>> http://www.mendeley.com/profiles/jussi-silvonen/
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.mendeley.com/profiles/jussi-silvonen/__;!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIRbRK5sy$>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> *Lähettäjä:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu><xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>>> käyttäjän mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu
>>>> <mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu>> puolesta
>>>> *Lähetetty:*keskiviikko 15. tammikuuta
>>>> 2020 19.56
>>>> *Vastaanottaja:*eXtended Mind, Culture,
>>>> Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>>> *Aihe:*[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology?
>>>> In my view, Munsterberg was no fool and
>>>> was deeply immersed in the problem of
>>>> the "two psychologies" that LSV sought
>>>> to supercede. For a quick take on
>>>> "psychotechnics" in work, check his
>>>> book out on google and search the term.
>>>> For example,
>>>>
>>>> Psychotechnics is really a technical
>>>> science related to a causal
>>>> [experimental-mc] psychology as
>>>> engineering is related to physics.
>>>> Psychotechnics necessarily refers to
>>>> the future while the psychohistorical
>>>> sciences refer to the past. (Munsterg,
>>>> 1915, p.354)
>>>>
>>>> It would be interesting to stage a
>>>> discussion bertween Munsterberg and
>>>> LSV. Which one would have more to say
>>>> for his accomplishments view from, say,
>>>> 2020?
>>>> And if someone has a pdf of the book,
>>>> please sing out!
>>>> mike
>>>> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 8:25 AM
>>>> Glassman, Michael <glassman.13@osu.edu
>>>> <mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I don’t know, I read it that he was
>>>> criticizing Munsterberg with his
>>>> discussion of psychotechnics, which
>>>> I guess was the title of
>>>> Munsterberg’s last book. To meet it
>>>> reads like Vygotsky was thinking
>>>> Munsterberg was falling into a
>>>> dangerous materialist trap. Maybe
>>>> that’s what you are saying Andy.
>>>>
>>>> Michael
>>>>
>>>> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu><xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>>*On
>>>> Behalf Of*Andy Blunden
>>>> *Sent:*Wednesday, January 15, 2020
>>>> 2:39 AM
>>>> *To:*xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>> *Subject:*[Xmca-l] Re: useful
>>>> psychology?
>>>>
>>>> This is what I was looking for:
>>>> https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri12.htm#p1207
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.marxists.org*2Farchive*2Fvygotsky*2Fworks*2Fcrisis*2Fpsycri12.htm*p1207__*3BIw!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBkzm3Ep0s*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412462637&sdata=OBOvR6IPfkMeN4eKIcrZXz5aDBjX1t5LB6LokEBXrDg*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlKiUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIXDWyWWT$>
>>>> It was the exclusion of
>>>> "psychotechnics" from the
>>>> fundamental problems of psychology
>>>> which he objected to. On the
>>>> contrary, the philosophy of
>>>> practice provided all the solutions
>>>> to these problems."The goal of such
>>>> a psychology is not Shakespeare in
>>>> concepts, as it was for Dilthey,
>>>> but */in one word –
>>>> psychotechnics/*, i.e., a
>>>> scientific theory which would lead
>>>> to the subordination and mastery of
>>>> the mind, to the artificial control
>>>> of behaviour."
>>>>
>>>> Thanks all.
>>>> Andy
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>>> Hegel for Social Movements
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fbrill.com*2Fview*2Ftitle*2F54574__*3B!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBk8iLcReg*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412472638&sdata=hBx7qflf4m9p8uTE*2B4alLHqD4n1aMpxrwmV7dWRuyqc*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIZm3eJhg$>
>>>> Home Page
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.ethicalpolitics.org*2Fablunden*2Findex.htm__*3B!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBk7OSM06Y*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412472638&sdata=ZI48nZtfz6lMy2*2BE6nm84IFOiB2DeCOirmEhCw3o0qg*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIVQug3id$>
>>>>
>>>> On 15/01/2020 3:09 pm, David
>>>> Kellogg wrote:
>>>>
>>>> But psychotechnics was really
>>>> the Soviet version of human
>>>> resource management. The idea
>>>> was to select particular
>>>> "types" for particular jobs. It
>>>> wasn't really a Soviet idea--it
>>>> started in Germany (and in
>>>> fact, the Nazis were very big
>>>> on it; the selection ramp at
>>>> Auschwitz was based on it). In
>>>> China, there was also quite a
>>>> bit of emphasis on making sure
>>>> that people suited the
>>>> professions chosen for them, as
>>>> education was a very scarce
>>>> resource.
>>>>
>>>> Isaac Spielrein--Sabine's
>>>> brother, who was a colleague of
>>>> Vygotsky--was a
>>>> psychotechnician; his essay on
>>>> the language of the Red Army
>>>> soldier is written with that
>>>> perspective in mind. And it was
>>>> at a psychotechnic conference
>>>> that Vygotsky was asked if
>>>> there could be a pedology of
>>>> adults, to aid in psychotechnic
>>>> selection.
>>>>
>>>> Vygotsky said no.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> David Kellogg
>>>>
>>>> Sangmyung University
>>>>
>>>> New Article: 'Commentary: On
>>>> the originality of Vygotsky's
>>>> "Thought and Word" i
>>>>
>>>> in/Mind Culture and Activity/
>>>>
>>>> /https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.tandfonline.com*2Fdoi*2Ffull*2F10.1080*2F10749039.2020.1711775__*3B!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBktaxJh-A*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412482626&sdata=yllUDzZhK8*2BCHvi8HXvoxP457gXRNAa8VYC*2FPC4PQtc*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIWQuZxxv$>/
>>>>
>>>> Some free e-prints available at:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.tandfonline.com*2Feprint*2FSK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY*2Ffull*3Ftarget*3D10.1080*10749039.2020.1711775__*3BLw!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBkmu8ynwE*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412482626&sdata=6*2B8dfqrBCex1zj*2Fmqw0i5RKwp0LGBvcc1zZjt*2BjGEjk*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlKiUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIUbsFhIY$>
>>>>
>>>> New Translation with Nikolai
>>>> Veresov: "L.S. Vygotsky's
>>>> Pedological Works Volume One:
>>>> Foundations of Pedology"
>>>>
>>>> https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.springer.com*2Fgp*2Fbook*2F9789811505270__*3B!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBkiawojtY*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412492624&sdata=PDdGgIgXqxWaVkzWvkE*2B24nBKC6nX6Vv*2Bq1mROYzdMk*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QISHX4tYT$>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:02 PM
>>>> mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu
>>>> <mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Might you be looking for
>>>> “psychotechnics” Andy?
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at
>>>> 7:35 PM David Kellogg
>>>> <dkellogg60@gmail.com
>>>> <mailto:dkellogg60@gmail.com>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Andy--
>>>>
>>>> That really doesn't
>>>> sound like Vygotsky to me.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, he refers to art
>>>> as the "social
>>>> technique of emotion"
>>>> (Psychology of Art).
>>>> Yes, he did experiments
>>>> on reading "Gentle
>>>> Breath" to see if
>>>> Bunin's short story had
>>>> any affect on breathing
>>>> rates. But as far as I
>>>> know he had nothing to
>>>> do with Luria's work on
>>>> lie detectors (in The
>>>> Nature of Human
>>>> Conflict), and he was
>>>> even rather skeptical
>>>> of Luria's work on
>>>> optical illusions in
>>>> "uneducated" peoples
>>>>
>>>> . Remember, this is the
>>>> guy who denied that a
>>>> general psychology
>>>> could ever cut itself
>>>> off from practice and
>>>> vice versa (History of
>>>> the Crisis in
>>>> Psychology), who
>>>> rejected the idea that
>>>> thinking is speech with
>>>> the sound turned off
>>>> (Thinking and Speech).
>>>> Besides, who ever heard
>>>> of a technology opposed
>>>> to an epistemology?
>>>> What would that mean? A
>>>> hand without a brain?
>>>>
>>>> Vygotsky sounds more
>>>> like this: "Neither the
>>>> hand nor the brain left
>>>> to itself can do much."
>>>> Francis Bacon,/Novum
>>>> Organum/(1620), Book 1,
>>>> Aphorism 2.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> David Kellogg
>>>>
>>>> Sangmyung University
>>>>
>>>> New Article:
>>>> 'Commentary: On the
>>>> originality of
>>>> Vygotsky's "Thought and
>>>> Word" i
>>>>
>>>> in/Mind Culture and
>>>> Activity/
>>>>
>>>> /https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.tandfonline.com*2Fdoi*2Ffull*2F10.1080*2F10749039.2020.1711775__*3B!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBktaxJh-A*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412492624&sdata=BP3oUS62Il2ysAn5qg8wmdRgzXL88z*2FStKI*2Bh6VwUKw*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIW8z2T_v$>/
>>>>
>>>> Some free e-prints
>>>> available at:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.tandfonline.com*2Feprint*2FSK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY*2Ffull*3Ftarget*3D10.1080*10749039.2020.1711775__*3BLw!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBkmu8ynwE*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412502616&sdata=sDCVNon8FCfDczqUlefwc6O6XRxMu7kgYtTX5KhfPSk*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlKiUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIUEJFvpx$>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at
>>>> 11:49 AM Andy Blunden
>>>> <andyb@marxists.org
>>>> <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> There's somewhere
>>>> where Vygotsky
>>>> talks about
>>>> psychology as a
>>>> technology as
>>>> opposed to (for
>>>> example) an
>>>> epistemology. Can
>>>> anyone point me to
>>>> where this
>>>> observation is to
>>>> be found. I can
>>>> find it with my
>>>> search engines. I
>>>> think Vygotsky and
>>>> Luria's invention
>>>> of the lie-detector
>>>> has been mentioned
>>>> in this connection.
>>>> Andy
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>>> Hegel for Social
>>>> Movements
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fbrill.com*2Fview*2Ftitle*2F54574__*3B!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBk8iLcReg*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412502616&sdata=q5ZRtmU7n76mwg2owaHdn8LcNDmLEHxREaF04n263AQ*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QITY6oecw$>
>>>> Home Page
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.ethicalpolitics.org*2Fablunden*2Findex.htm__*3B!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBk7OSM06Y*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412512609&sdata=r3AyHyk8zmlFhrR7IW5kr51MZsY8ohkyUWlVW9jyKpM*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIaQ-1kB-$>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> fiction is but a form of
>>>> symbolic action, a mere
>>>> game of “as if”, therein
>>>> lies its true function and
>>>> its potential for effecting
>>>> change - R. Ellison
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> For archival resources
>>>> relevant to the research of
>>>> myself and other members of
>>>> LCHC, visit
>>>>
>>>> lchc.ucsd.edu
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__http*3A*2Flchc.ucsd.edu__*3B!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBkAj8DVL0*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412512609&sdata=gpiCZeiosXnQSx4T2Qe3TjykJII53mXoOxw290oXsMA*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIX0clSVO$>.
>>>> For a narrative history of
>>>> the research of LCHC,
>>>> visitlchcautobio.ucsd.edu
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__http*3A*2Flchcautobio.ucsd.edu__*3B!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBkRAeC65Q*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412522609&sdata=t2P5tYIsk3GCrG8v5UtA9qX28ejZW*2BnuLzQfRupbPL8*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIfoqvbhu$>.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> fiction is but a form of symbolic
>>>> action, a mere game of “as if”, therein
>>>> lies its true function and its
>>>> potential for effecting change - R. Ellison
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------
>>>> For archival resources relevant to the
>>>> research of myself and other members of
>>>> LCHC, visit
>>>> lchc.ucsd.edu
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http*3A*2F*2Flchc.ucsd.edu&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412522609&sdata=7SppP1Yvcb2dKzCKoZVcsxSc317*2FVcl6Kpfghe0O2Hg*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIbLpkCwJ$>.
>>>> For a narrative history of the research
>>>> of LCHC, visitlchcautobio.ucsd.edu
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http*3A*2F*2Flchcautobio.ucsd.edu&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412532604&sdata=F8KGSR10*2BDM*2BkgdBt*2FCc9Nobo9vvGTCOGRRz6g9P*2FeY*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIReAJOUT$>.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
>>>> Director,
>>>> Office of Institutional Research
>>>> <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
>>>> Fordham University
>>>> Thebaud Hall-202
>>>> Bronx, NY 10458
>>>> Phone: (718) 817-2243
>>>> Fax: (718) 817-3817
>>>> email:pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
>>>> <mailto:pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
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