[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology?

Sat Jan 18 12:48:14 PST 2020

Martin, (just catched your post quickly), I think your example makes it quite clear that self control and emancipation are not the same, right? Rhat is sort of what I was getting into when a few posts ago I pointed out that a lot of the meta-cognition and critical thinking etc… has made it to mainstream education for a good while now, including the so-called 21st century skills, and yet, I would not consider much of what is done in formal education (and much of what is raised in educational research) as having that “higher” moral character implied in the notion of emancipation (not to free oneself from conditions, which I think is what Haydi is getting at), and apparently much of what has been taught hasn’t been very useful for surviving the 21st century…

Haydi, thanks for your careful response and patience. Michael, what you just wrote (about being vs becoming), which is very much to the point, reminded me of Ortega y Gasset’s: “The only thing that is given to us and that is when there is human life is the having to make it … Life is a task”

Alfredo

From: <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of Martin Packer <mpacker@cantab.net>
Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
Date: Saturday, 18 January 2020 at 21:37
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology?

Tell me if I am inadvertently highjacking the thread here, but something that has puzzled me for some time is this. If someone becomes able to control their own behavior, is this necessarily emancipatory? A child can engage in self-control in order to do something completely new, something that transforms their own ecology and opens up new possibilities for themselves and other people. True. But equally, a child can engage in self-control in order to do precisely what their caregiver (or their government) wants and tells them to do. Are these both emancipatory? Are these both examples of ‘executive function’? Are they both occasions of the higher psychological functions (deliberate and conscious)?

Puzzled...

Martin

On Jan 17, 2020, at 1:57 PM, Peter Feigenbaum <pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu<mailto:pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu>> wrote:

Michael and Andy,

If you'll permit me to jump into this conversation, I can help answer Michael's questions. As a long-time researcher of private (egocentric) speech, I see Vygotsky's theoretical assertions about the movement inward of signs (or, more precisely, the externally existing social system of speech communication) during child development as standing in sharp contrast to the nativist assertions that verbal thinking is an inborn biological system. But more pertinent to your discussion, by placing the source of human verbal thinking in the social sphere rather than the biological sphere, Vygotsky also embraces the primary function of signs as a social means for controlling the consciousness of others. What happens during the development of private speech is that this artificially created means of social control of others passes to the child as part of the process of acquiring the system of speech communication. As a derivative of the primary function of signs, inner speech becomes a child's means of controlling his or her own consciousness. Possessing control over one's own consciousness is nothing less than emancipatory. Neat trick, eh?

Sorry to intervene!  Carry on.

Cheers,
Peter

On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 11:57 AM Glassman, Michael <glassman.13@osu.edu<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu>> wrote:
This is interesting Andy. What strikes me as I read it is the sentence “Its theoretical goal is the prediction and control of behavior.” These days I see Vygotsky as advocating for thinking as a tool that can predict and control the ecology. Of course Watson is saying (like most behaviorists) you can’t go inside the head. Is Vygotsky saying that internalized tools are the same as external tools? Is that why he emphasizes the initial external to internal migrations of tools we use to control the ecology around us? Was he trying to split this differences, you can go inside the head if you accept that was is inside the head is a consequence of what is outside the head? For me it puts the whole idea of contextualism in a different light.

Michael

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Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology?

Here is what J B Watson had to say about Behaviourism:
“Psychology as the behaviorist views it is a purely objective experimental branch of natural science. Its theoretical goal is the prediction and control of behavior. Introspection forms no essential part of its methods, nor is the scientific value of its data dependent upon the readiness with which they lend themselves to interpretation in terms of consciousness. The behaviorist, in his efforts to get a unitary scheme of animal response, recognizes no dividing line between man and brute” (‘Psychology as the Behaviorist Views it’, 1913)
Andy
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On 17/01/2020 3:13 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote:
What you write makes sense to me, Michael. I meant behaviorism as a science of control from a pedagogy perspective. I use to raise the question “what type of pedagogy do arrive at when you take the S-R scheme (and conditioning) as your main explanatory scheme?” If you raise the same question from a sociocultural perspective, the answer is quite different, and allows for issues of freedom in a whole new light.

In terms of Vygotsky’s positions, I think you render a valid reading.

Although I think that today’s school curricula in most countries are quite explicit on the importance of the “adaptable thinking skills” that you refer to, rather than on educating for jobs (although I can see that is still the underlying assumption). You can read about those skills in the so-called XXIst century skills, very extended in recent educational reforms (including critical thinking skills, creativity, collaborative skills, digital skills…). I am afraid, though, that the ecosocial crises that we are facing are very quickly and patently showing how narrow our understandings of the sort of skills needed to survive in the XXIst century are. I think that what the climate crisis is showing us is that we need to connect those notions of thinking with the practical socio-economical organization of power and of the relations of humans with nature. I don’t remember now where I read that a scientist had been including spikes of civil activism, disobedience, and social disrest in his/her climate prediction computer models, and was showing that these were the only variables that may have a largest, quickest effect in achieving the gas emission reductions needed (if you can reduce the solution to reducing gas emissions…). I think events today are re-writing the way “progressing towards a modern world” made concious thinking more relevant… But this is a digression, sorry!

Alfredo
From: <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu><mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of "Glassman, Michael" <glassman.13@osu.edu><mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu>
Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu><mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
Date: Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 15:49
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu><mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology?

Hi Alfredo and Andy,

I am not sure I agree with this characterization of behaviorism.  Especially at the time he was writing behaviorism was for the most part I think focusing on the behaviors of individuals rather than going inside the head to understand what individuals did. It cast quite a wide net, from Thorndike to Mead. But I don’t think at this point that Vygotsky had a dog in a cognitive/behaviorist fight (maybe I am wrong). I sort of see Vygotsky at this point as not so much discussing control of individuals by those outside them (at least not directly) but the ways individuals are able to control the ecologies around them. He sees this occurring in two possible ways, being able to use internalized tools in order to directly control the ecology, and being able to control their own thinking so that they can actually play (not the right word) with these internalized symbols before applying them. He has not difficulty with the former, and all that is really necessary is to be taught different applications for limited situations. But as we progressed to a modern world the ability to lead a satisfactory life from a small set of applications you might say becomes more and more difficult. Humans developed more abstract thinking, controlling their thoughts to deal with a quickly changing and heterogenous ecology, but this demanded conscious effort on the part of social interlocutors (formal teaching). The difficulty he raises in the socialist alteration of man is that this type of conscious effort was limited to only a small population that then used their more adaptable thinking skills (I am hesitant to say advanced) to manipulate (to differentiate from control) those who were on the lower rungs of society. I mean we continue to do this today when we argue to educate students for specific jobs but do not offer broader education in thinking (there is nothing wrong in training in skills such as mechanics and plumbing, but unless we teach people to manipulate their thinking about those skills they will never really have control of what they do in a complex society. I don’t think that is what Vygotsky was writing about in Crisis, but it does set up a road map for where he wants to go, which I actually think you can see in part even in his dissertation on Hamlet.

Michael

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Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology?

Andy, all,

Behaviorism as the science of controlling people, as the opposite of an emancipatory science, is exactly how I teach it in my learning theory courses. I too find the most useful reading of Vygotsky’s attempts as aiming at an emancipatory science, although clearly the instrumental bend in some of the formulations gets in the way, including the terminology of “control” that also characterized, for example, Dewey’s ideas on inquiry. “The artificial control of behavior” could for example be as well formulated as the object-oriented activity of a social movement, which precisely aims to gain “control” over conditions for development; only that “control” might be a quite misleading way of posing it…

Alfredo

From: <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu<mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> on behalf of Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org<mailto:andyb@marxists.org>>
Reply to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu<mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
Date: Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 12:52
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Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology?

Michael, I simply take Vygotsky at his (translated) word. He wants "a scientific theory which would lead to the subordination and mastery of the mind, to the artificial control of behaviour" and whether he likes Munsterberg or personality testing for jobs is, to me, irrelevant.
Now there is an ambiguity in Vygotsky's claim. Behaviourism, for example, I would define as the science of controlling people, and as such is the opposite of an emancipatory science. What Vygotsky is mainly interested in, on the other hand, is giving to people the capacity to control their own mind. But this is not clear from the above, and maybe Vygotsky himself wasn't clear. His writing on "socialist man" and the business with lie detectors suggest that there were some blind spots there.
Anyway, I was only interested in using the quote for my own purposes in contrasting the academic literature on "social Movement Studies" and that genre of social movement literature written by and for activist, which is usually narrative or autobiographical in style, and in the above sense "technic" rather than "epistemology."
Andy
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On 16/01/2020 6:42 am, Glassman, Michael wrote:
I don’t know, the sense I get is that he was really criticizing Musterberg, not embracing him, at least from what I read in Crisis. Vygotsky seems to believe we should be wary of this idea of a practical psychology that can use empirical means to look predict human behavior. One hint I get from the piece is his mention of using practical psychology to determine whether people should be tram drivers. To me it sounds like he was arguing also against the rising use of intelligence tests as a psychological tool. James brought over Musterberg in part I think to explore the idea of empirical psychology and Musterberg it seems wound up merging empirical and practical in ways that Vygotsky thought might be detrimental, rightfully suggesting it would send psychology towards the types of practical models of the physical sciences where it did not belong, something that I think has plagued the field since. At least from my reading of this piece is that Vygotsky also found it confusing that Musterberg by following James was also grabbing hold of an idealist vision of psychology, that people behave in certain ways because they were human. Vygotsky seemed to think that there was no way to reconcile this. At this moment I see this as sort of a precursor of where Vygotsky wanted to go, finding a way to merge the idealist vision with a material approach but not falling into a trap in either direction. He did not want to be Wundt and he did not want to be Musterberg, he definitely wanted nothing to do with the intelligence testers who combined “empirical” and practical psychology for ideological reasons (just recently heard about Thomas Teo’s idea of epistemic violence. I think that might fit in here).

Michael

From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu<mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu><mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> On Behalf Of Jussi Silvonen
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Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology?

Mike,

take a look at Internet Archive (archive.org<http://archive.org/>), you can find PDF files of most of Münsterberg's books there. It is obvious, that Müsterberg had  a great influence on LSV, at least in his theory's instrumental phase.

JusSi
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Lähetetty: keskiviikko 15. tammikuuta 2020 19.56
Vastaanottaja: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu<mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
Aihe: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology?

In my view, Munsterberg was no fool and was deeply immersed in the problem of the "two psychologies" that LSV sought to supercede. For a quick take on "psychotechnics" in work, check his book out on google and search the term. For example,

Psychotechnics is really a technical science related to a causal [experimental-mc] psychology as engineering is related to physics.  Psychotechnics necessarily refers to the future while the psychohistorical sciences refer to the past. (Munsterg, 1915, p.354)

It would be interesting to stage a discussion bertween Munsterberg and LSV.  Which one would have more to say for his accomplishments view from, say, 2020?

And if someone has a pdf of the book, please sing out!
mike

On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 8:25 AM Glassman, Michael <glassman.13@osu.edu<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu>> wrote:

I don’t know, I read it that he was criticizing Munsterberg with his discussion of psychotechnics, which I guess was the title of Munsterberg’s last book. To meet it reads like Vygotsky was thinking Munsterberg was falling into a dangerous materialist trap. Maybe that’s what you are saying Andy.

Michael

From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu<mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu<mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> On Behalf Of Andy Blunden
Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 2:39 AM
To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu<mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology?

This is what I was looking for:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri12.htm#p1207<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.marxists.org*2Farchive*2Fvygotsky*2Fworks*2Fcrisis*2Fpsycri12.htm*p1207__*3BIw!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBkzm3Ep0s*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412462637&sdata=OBOvR6IPfkMeN4eKIcrZXz5aDBjX1t5LB6LokEBXrDg*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlKiUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIXDWyWWT$>
It was the exclusion of "psychotechnics" from the fundamental problems of psychology which he objected to. On the contrary, the philosophy of practice provided all the solutions to these problems. "The goal of such a psychology is not Shakespeare in concepts, as it was for Dilthey, but in one word – psychotechnics, i.e., a scientific theory which would lead to the subordination and mastery of the mind, to the artificial control of behaviour."
Thanks all.
Andy
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Andy Blunden
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On 15/01/2020 3:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote:

But psychotechnics was really the Soviet version of human resource management. The idea was to select particular "types" for particular jobs. It wasn't really a Soviet idea--it started in Germany (and in fact, the Nazis were very big on it; the selection ramp at Auschwitz was based on it). In China, there was also quite a bit of emphasis on making sure that people suited the professions chosen for them, as education was a very scarce resource.

Isaac Spielrein--Sabine's brother, who was a colleague of Vygotsky--was a psychotechnician; his essay on the language of the Red Army soldier is written with that perspective in mind. And it was at a psychotechnic conference that Vygotsky was asked if there could be a pedology of adults, to aid in psychotechnic selection.

Vygotsky said no.

David Kellogg

Sangmyung University

New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i

in Mind Culture and Activity

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.tandfonline.com*2Fdoi*2Ffull*2F10.1080*2F10749039.2020.1711775__*3B!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBktaxJh-A*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412482626&sdata=yllUDzZhK8*2BCHvi8HXvoxP457gXRNAa8VYC*2FPC4PQtc*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIWQuZxxv$>

Some free e-prints available at:

https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.tandfonline.com*2Feprint*2FSK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY*2Ffull*3Ftarget*3D10.1080*10749039.2020.1711775__*3BLw!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBkmu8ynwE*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412482626&sdata=6*2B8dfqrBCex1zj*2Fmqw0i5RKwp0LGBvcc1zZjt*2BjGEjk*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlKiUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIUbsFhIY$>

New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: "L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology"

 https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.springer.com*2Fgp*2Fbook*2F9789811505270__*3B!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBkiawojtY*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412492624&sdata=PDdGgIgXqxWaVkzWvkE*2B24nBKC6nX6Vv*2Bq1mROYzdMk*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QISHX4tYT$>

On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:02 PM mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu<mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu>> wrote:

Might you be looking for “psychotechnics” Andy?

Mike

On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 7:35 PM David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com<mailto:dkellogg60@gmail.com>> wrote:

Andy--

That really doesn't sound like Vygotsky to me.

Yes, he refers to art as the "social technique of emotion" (Psychology of Art). Yes, he did experiments on reading "Gentle Breath" to see if Bunin's short story had any affect on breathing rates. But as far as I know he had nothing to do with Luria's work on lie detectors (in The Nature of Human Conflict), and he was even rather skeptical of Luria's work on optical illusions in "uneducated" peoples

. Remember, this is the guy who denied that a general psychology could ever cut itself off from practice and vice versa (History of the Crisis in Psychology), who rejected the idea that thinking is speech with the sound turned off (Thinking and Speech). Besides, who ever heard of a technology opposed to an epistemology? What would that mean? A hand without a brain?

Vygotsky sounds more like this: "Neither the hand nor the brain left to itself can do much."  Francis Bacon, Novum Organum (1620), Book 1, Aphorism 2.

David Kellogg

Sangmyung University

New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i

in Mind Culture and Activity

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.tandfonline.com*2Fdoi*2Ffull*2F10.1080*2F10749039.2020.1711775__*3B!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBktaxJh-A*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412492624&sdata=BP3oUS62Il2ysAn5qg8wmdRgzXL88z*2FStKI*2Bh6VwUKw*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIW8z2T_v$>

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On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 11:49 AM Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org<mailto:andyb@marxists.org>> wrote:
There's somewhere where Vygotsky talks about psychology as a technology as opposed to (for example) an epistemology. Can anyone point me to where this observation is to be found. I can find it with my search engines. I think Vygotsky and Luria's invention of the lie-detector has been mentioned in this connection.
Andy

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________________________________

Andy Blunden
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