[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology?

[Haydi Zulfei]

Michael,

As Andy is late in responding , I seek his and your permission to intervene.

Andy is quite right with the Quote.

Please pay attention to these terms : purely objective , of natural science
, no introspectionist Wundt , therefore , nor validity of the data
acquisition in terms of consciousness , no dividing line between man and
brute as the consequence of efforts to get a nunitary scheme of animal
response.

Now with these explicit criteria and yardsticks , how can we interpret the
“theoretical goal as the prediction and control of *human* behavior”? Does
this not mean the same response of the knee jerk by the stimulus of the
stroke of the hammer upon the limb? Of course , it is a control type but by
no means a human control type. I suppose control here means the very
definition of subordinating the human by the conditioned stimuli in
contrast to the unconditioned ones (knee jerk). Maximally you condition a
human’s response (behavior) by resorting to means such as showing/signaling
him similar or dissimilar stimuli. It is just for him to act accordingly in
the absence of any aim , purpose , or intentionality or will. Because these
are not things to pick up from the Ecology.

Now you did a good job of talking about “ecology” as the context in which
thoughts come into being. And you doubt if there are two processes involved
one of ecology with actual tools , the other ecology with the derived ones.
I think nowadays we cannot think of consciousness and discourse and the
dialectics between them and the ecology as the way Marx depicts in German
Ideology as taking it as the ways to eat , to shelter (dwelling) and to
clothe. I think , yes , it’s the very consequence of the initial migration
which is used dialectically on a reverse journey to affect the ecology in
turn. If I’m right in my assumption that Vygotsky is influenced by Marx ,
he knows that the externals are not the whole thing. He knows about Hegel’s
Appearance and Essence and that he should have assimilated it to his
process of theorization.

In the external we sense and perceive. It’s our first round of cognition.
Then , it’s in the consequences of the analysis of these externals into
thoughts which possibilities arise that enable us to extract those of the
features of the externals that are not just superficially similar but
necessarily and essentially indispensable to the process of the true
cognition of those externalities. The final stage is for us to synthesize
these necessaries and essentials to then acquire Unity in Diversity , that
is , to cognize an object as a whole , as a concrete universal in thought.

All the best

Haydi

On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 8:27 PM Glassman, Michael <glassman.13@osu.edu>
wrote:

> This is interesting Andy. What strikes me as I read it is the sentence
> “Its theoretical goal is the prediction and control of behavior.” These
> days I see Vygotsky as advocating for thinking as a tool that can predict
> and control the ecology. Of course Watson is saying (like most
> behaviorists) you can’t go inside the head. Is Vygotsky saying that
> internalized tools are the same as external tools? Is that why he
> emphasizes the initial external to internal migrations of tools we use to
> control the ecology around us? Was he trying to split this differences, you
> can go inside the head if you accept that was is inside the head is a
> consequence of what is outside the head? For me it puts the whole idea of
> contextualism in a different light.
>
>
>
> Michael
>
>
>
> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> *On
> Behalf Of *Andy Blunden
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 16, 2020 6:06 PM
> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology?
>
>
>
> Here is what J B Watson had to say about Behaviourism:
>
> “Psychology as the behaviorist views it is a purely objective experimental
> branch of natural science. Its theoretical goal is the prediction and
> control of behavior. Introspection forms no essential part of its methods,
> nor is the scientific value of its data dependent upon the readiness with
> which they lend themselves to interpretation in terms of consciousness. The
> behaviorist, in his efforts to get a unitary scheme of animal response,
> recognizes no dividing line between man and brute” (‘Psychology as the
> Behaviorist Views it’, 1913)
>
> Andy
> ------------------------------
>
> *Andy Blunden*
> Hegel for Social Movements
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!KGKeukY!kAhm2-MhmeEb01UGseDSvAZrvZnJtObSQddV0XOYmjieDbMEOEMJQ1-jaTJz_kABKaH3hjUn$>
> Home Page
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!KGKeukY!kAhm2-MhmeEb01UGseDSvAZrvZnJtObSQddV0XOYmjieDbMEOEMJQ1-jaTJz_kABKUW5Le1w$>
>
> On 17/01/2020 3:13 am, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote:
>
> What you write makes sense to me, Michael. I meant behaviorism as a
> science of control from a pedagogy perspective. I use to raise the question
> “what type of pedagogy do arrive at when you take the S-R scheme (and
> conditioning) as your main explanatory scheme?” If you raise the same
> question from a sociocultural perspective, the answer is quite different,
> and allows for issues of freedom in a whole new light.
>
>
>
> In terms of Vygotsky’s positions, I think you render a valid reading.
>
>
>
> Although I think that today’s school curricula in most countries are quite
> explicit on the importance of the “adaptable thinking skills” that you
> refer to, rather than on educating for jobs (although I can see that is
> still the underlying assumption). You can read about those skills in the
> so-called XXIst century skills, very extended in recent educational reforms
> (including critical thinking skills, creativity, collaborative skills,
> digital skills…). I am afraid, though, that the ecosocial crises that we
> are facing are very quickly and patently showing how narrow our
> understandings of the sort of skills needed to survive in the XXIst century
> are. I think that what the climate crisis is showing us is that we need to
> connect those notions of thinking with the practical socio-economical
> organization of power and of the relations of humans with nature. I don’t
> remember now where I read that a scientist had been including spikes of
> civil activism, disobedience, and social disrest in his/her climate
> prediction computer models, and was showing that these were the only
> variables that may have a largest, quickest effect in achieving the gas
> emission reductions needed (if you can reduce the solution to reducing gas
> emissions…). I think events today are re-writing the way “progressing
> towards a modern world” made concious thinking more relevant… But this is a
> digression, sorry!
>
>
>
> Alfredo
>
> *From: *<xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of "Glassman, Michael"
> <glassman.13@osu.edu> <glassman.13@osu.edu>
> *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Date: *Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 15:49
> *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology?
>
>
>
> Hi Alfredo and Andy,
>
>
>
> I am not sure I agree with this characterization of behaviorism.
> Especially at the time he was writing behaviorism was for the most part I
> think focusing on the behaviors of individuals rather than going inside the
> head to understand what individuals did. It cast quite a wide net, from
> Thorndike to Mead. But I don’t think at this point that Vygotsky had a dog
> in a cognitive/behaviorist fight (maybe I am wrong). I sort of see Vygotsky
> at this point as not so much discussing control of individuals by those
> outside them (at least not directly) but the ways individuals are able to
> control the ecologies around them. He sees this occurring in two possible
> ways, being able to use internalized tools in order to directly control the
> ecology, and being able to control their own thinking so that they can
> actually play (not the right word) with these internalized symbols before
> applying them. He has not difficulty with the former, and all that is
> really necessary is to be taught different applications for limited
> situations. But as we progressed to a modern world the ability to lead a
> satisfactory life from a small set of applications you might say becomes
> more and more difficult. Humans developed more abstract thinking,
> controlling their thoughts to deal with a quickly changing and heterogenous
> ecology, but this demanded conscious effort on the part of social
> interlocutors (formal teaching). The difficulty he raises in the socialist
> alteration of man is that this type of conscious effort was limited to only
> a small population that then used their more adaptable thinking skills (I
> am hesitant to say advanced) to manipulate (to differentiate from control)
> those who were on the lower rungs of society. I mean we continue to do this
> today when we argue to educate students for specific jobs but do not offer
> broader education in thinking (there is nothing wrong in training in skills
> such as mechanics and plumbing, but unless we teach people to manipulate
> their thinking about those skills they will never really have control of
> what they do in a complex society. I don’t think that is what Vygotsky was
> writing about in Crisis, but it does set up a road map for where he wants
> to go, which I actually think you can see in part even in his dissertation
> on Hamlet.
>
>
>
> Michael
>
>
>
> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> *On Behalf Of *Alfredo Jornet Gil
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 16, 2020 7:34 AM
> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology?
>
>
>
> Andy, all,
>
>
>
> Behaviorism as the science of controlling people, as the opposite of an
> emancipatory science, is exactly how I teach it in my learning theory
> courses. I too find the most useful reading of Vygotsky’s attempts as
> aiming at an emancipatory science, although clearly the instrumental bend
> in some of the formulations gets in the way, including the terminology of
> “control” that also characterized, for example, Dewey’s ideas on inquiry.
> “The artificial control of behavior” could for example be as well
> formulated as the object-oriented activity of a social movement, which
> precisely aims to gain “control” over conditions for development; only that
> “control” might be a quite misleading way of posing it…
>
>
>
> Alfredo
>
>
>
> *From: *<xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of Andy Blunden <
> andyb@marxists.org>
> *Reply to: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Date: *Thursday, 16 January 2020 at 12:52
> *To: *"xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology?
>
>
>
> Michael, I simply take Vygotsky at his (translated) word. He wants "a
> scientific theory which would lead to the subordination and mastery of the
> mind, to the artificial control of behaviour" and whether he likes
> Munsterberg or personality testing for jobs is, to me, irrelevant.
>
> Now there *is *an ambiguity in Vygotsky's claim. Behaviourism, for
> example, I would define as the science of controlling people, and as such
> is the opposite of an emancipatory science. What Vygotsky is mainly
> interested in, on the other hand, is giving to people the capacity to
> control *their own* mind. But this is not clear from the above, and maybe
> Vygotsky himself wasn't clear. His writing on "socialist man" and the
> business with lie detectors suggest that there were some blind spots there.
>
> Anyway, I was only interested in using the quote for my own purposes in
> contrasting the academic literature on "social Movement Studies" and that
> genre of social movement literature written by and for activist, which is
> usually narrative or autobiographical in style, and in the above sense
> "technic" rather than "epistemology."
>
> Andy
> ------------------------------
>
> *Andy Blunden*
> Hegel for Social Movements
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!KGKeukY!mrT6LtMASo6iMbjfKmsIkMmzZQzGLVGZkfw0x1WC8SwszUCXq-0wxCJX5hQJe8BHX5U$>
> Home Page
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>
> On 16/01/2020 6:42 am, Glassman, Michael wrote:
>
> I don’t know, the sense I get is that he was really criticizing
> Musterberg, not embracing him, at least from what I read in Crisis.
> Vygotsky seems to believe we should be wary of this idea of a practical
> psychology that can use empirical means to look predict human behavior. One
> hint I get from the piece is his mention of using practical psychology to
> determine whether people should be tram drivers. To me it sounds like he
> was arguing also against the rising use of intelligence tests as a
> psychological tool. James brought over Musterberg in part I think to
> explore the idea of empirical psychology and Musterberg it seems wound up
> merging empirical and practical in ways that Vygotsky thought might be
> detrimental, rightfully suggesting it would send psychology towards the
> types of practical models of the physical sciences where it did not belong,
> something that I think has plagued the field since. At least from my
> reading of this piece is that Vygotsky also found it confusing that
> Musterberg by following James was also grabbing hold of an idealist vision
> of psychology, that people behave in certain ways because they were human.
> Vygotsky seemed to think that there was no way to reconcile this. At this
> moment I see this as sort of a precursor of where Vygotsky wanted to go,
> finding a way to merge the idealist vision with a material approach but not
> falling into a trap in either direction. He did not want to be Wundt and he
> did not want to be Musterberg, he definitely wanted nothing to do with the
> intelligence testers who combined “empirical” and practical psychology for
> ideological reasons (just recently heard about Thomas Teo’s idea of
> epistemic violence. I think that might fit in here).
>
>
>
> Michael
>
>
>
> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> *On Behalf Of *Jussi Silvonen
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 15, 2020 1:15 PM
> *To:* mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> <mcole@ucsd.edu>; eXtended Mind,
> Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology?
>
>
>
> Mike,
>
>
>
> take a look at Internet Archive (archive.org), you can find PDF files of
> most of Münsterberg's books there. It is obvious, that Müsterberg had  a
> great influence on LSV, at least in his theory's instrumental phase.
>
>
>
> JusSi
>
> ----------------
> Jussi Silvonen
> Dosentti
> Itä-Suomen yliopisto, Joensuun kampus
> Kasvatustieteiden ja psykologian osasto
> PL 111 (Metria)
> 80101 Joensuu
> ------------------
> https://wiki.uef.fi/display/~jsilvone@uef.fi/Home
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/wiki.uef.fi/display/*jsilvone@uef.fi/Home__;fg!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIe9sFnfP$>
> https://uef.academia.edu/JussiSilvonen
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/uef.academia.edu/JussiSilvonen__;!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIREamwTv$>
> http://www.mendeley.com/profiles/jussi-silvonen/
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.mendeley.com/profiles/jussi-silvonen/__;!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIRbRK5sy$>
> ------------------------------
>
> *Lähettäjä:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <
> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> käyttäjän mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu>
> puolesta
> *Lähetetty:* keskiviikko 15. tammikuuta 2020 19.56
> *Vastaanottaja:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
> >
> *Aihe:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology?
>
>
>
> In my view, Munsterberg was no fool and was deeply immersed in the problem
> of the "two psychologies" that LSV sought to supercede. For a quick take on
> "psychotechnics" in work, check his book out on google and search the term.
> For example,
>
>
>
> Psychotechnics is really a technical science related to a causal
> [experimental-mc] psychology as engineering is related to physics.
> Psychotechnics necessarily refers to the future while the psychohistorical
> sciences refer to the past. (Munsterg, 1915, p.354)
>
>
>
> It would be interesting to stage a discussion bertween Munsterberg and
> LSV.  Which one would have more to say for his accomplishments view from,
> say, 2020?
>
>
>
> And if someone has a pdf of the book, please sing out!
>
> mike
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 8:25 AM Glassman, Michael <glassman.13@osu.edu>
> wrote:
>
> I don’t know, I read it that he was criticizing Munsterberg with his
> discussion of psychotechnics, which I guess was the title of Munsterberg’s
> last book. To meet it reads like Vygotsky was thinking Munsterberg was
> falling into a dangerous materialist trap. Maybe that’s what you are saying
> Andy.
>
>
>
> Michael
>
>
>
> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> *On
> Behalf Of *Andy Blunden
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 15, 2020 2:39 AM
> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology?
>
>
>
> This is what I was looking for:
>
> https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri12.htm#p1207
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.marxists.org*2Farchive*2Fvygotsky*2Fworks*2Fcrisis*2Fpsycri12.htm*p1207__*3BIw!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBkzm3Ep0s*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412462637&sdata=OBOvR6IPfkMeN4eKIcrZXz5aDBjX1t5LB6LokEBXrDg*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlKiUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIXDWyWWT$>
>
> It was the exclusion of "psychotechnics" from the fundamental problems of
> psychology which he objected to. On the contrary, the philosophy of
> practice provided all the solutions to these problems. "The goal of such
> a psychology is not Shakespeare in concepts, as it was for Dilthey, but *in
> one word – psychotechnics*, i.e., a scientific theory which would lead to
> the subordination and mastery of the mind, to the artificial control of
> behaviour."
>
> Thanks all.
> Andy
> ------------------------------
>
> *Andy Blunden*
> Hegel for Social Movements
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fbrill.com*2Fview*2Ftitle*2F54574__*3B!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBk8iLcReg*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412472638&sdata=hBx7qflf4m9p8uTE*2B4alLHqD4n1aMpxrwmV7dWRuyqc*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIZm3eJhg$>
> Home Page
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>
> On 15/01/2020 3:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote:
>
> But psychotechnics was really the Soviet version of human resource
> management. The idea was to select particular "types" for particular jobs.
> It wasn't really a Soviet idea--it started in Germany (and in fact, the
> Nazis were very big on it; the selection ramp at Auschwitz was based on
> it). In China, there was also quite a bit of emphasis on making sure that
> people suited the professions chosen for them, as education was a very
> scarce resource.
>
>
>
> Isaac Spielrein--Sabine's brother, who was a colleague of Vygotsky--was a
> psychotechnician; his essay on the language of the Red Army soldier is
> written with that perspective in mind. And it was at a psychotechnic
> conference that Vygotsky was asked if there could be a pedology of adults,
> to aid in psychotechnic selection.
>
>
>
> Vygotsky said no.
>
>
> David Kellogg
>
> Sangmyung University
>
>
>
> New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and
> Word" i
>
> in *Mind Culture and Activity*
>
> *https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.tandfonline.com*2Fdoi*2Ffull*2F10.1080*2F10749039.2020.1711775__*3B!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBktaxJh-A*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412482626&sdata=yllUDzZhK8*2BCHvi8HXvoxP457gXRNAa8VYC*2FPC4PQtc*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIWQuZxxv$>*
>
> Some free e-prints available at:
>
>
> https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.tandfonline.com*2Feprint*2FSK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY*2Ffull*3Ftarget*3D10.1080*10749039.2020.1711775__*3BLw!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBkmu8ynwE*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412482626&sdata=6*2B8dfqrBCex1zj*2Fmqw0i5RKwp0LGBvcc1zZjt*2BjGEjk*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlKiUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIUbsFhIY$>
>
>
>
> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: "L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works
> Volume One: Foundations of Pedology"
>
>
>
>  https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.springer.com*2Fgp*2Fbook*2F9789811505270__*3B!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBkiawojtY*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412492624&sdata=PDdGgIgXqxWaVkzWvkE*2B24nBKC6nX6Vv*2Bq1mROYzdMk*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QISHX4tYT$>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:02 PM mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>
> Might you be looking for “psychotechnics” Andy?
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 7:35 PM David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Andy--
>
>
>
> That really doesn't sound like Vygotsky to me.
>
>
>
> Yes, he refers to art as the "social technique of emotion" (Psychology of
> Art). Yes, he did experiments on reading "Gentle Breath" to see if Bunin's
> short story had any affect on breathing rates. But as far as I know he had
> nothing to do with Luria's work on lie detectors (in The Nature of Human
> Conflict), and he was even rather skeptical of Luria's work on optical
> illusions in "uneducated" peoples
>
>
>
> . Remember, this is the guy who denied that a general psychology could
> ever cut itself off from practice and vice versa (History of the Crisis in
> Psychology), who rejected the idea that thinking is speech with the sound
> turned off (Thinking and Speech). Besides, who ever heard of a technology
> opposed to an epistemology? What would that mean? A hand without a brain?
>
>
>
> Vygotsky sounds more like this: "Neither the hand nor the brain left to
> itself can do much."  Francis Bacon, *Novum Organum* (1620), Book 1,
> Aphorism 2.
>
>
> David Kellogg
>
> Sangmyung University
>
>
>
> New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and
> Word" i
>
> in *Mind Culture and Activity*
>
> *https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.tandfonline.com*2Fdoi*2Ffull*2F10.1080*2F10749039.2020.1711775__*3B!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBktaxJh-A*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412492624&sdata=BP3oUS62Il2ysAn5qg8wmdRgzXL88z*2FStKI*2Bh6VwUKw*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIW8z2T_v$>*
>
> Some free e-prints available at:
>
>
> https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.tandfonline.com*2Feprint*2FSK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY*2Ffull*3Ftarget*3D10.1080*10749039.2020.1711775__*3BLw!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBkmu8ynwE*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412502616&sdata=sDCVNon8FCfDczqUlefwc6O6XRxMu7kgYtTX5KhfPSk*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlKiUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIUEJFvpx$>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 11:49 AM Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:
>
> There's somewhere where Vygotsky talks about psychology as a technology as
> opposed to (for example) an epistemology. Can anyone point me to where this
> observation is to be found. I can find it with my search engines. I think
> Vygotsky and Luria's invention of the lie-detector has been mentioned in
> this connection.
>
> Andy
>
>
>
> --
> ------------------------------
>
> *Andy Blunden*
> Hegel for Social Movements
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fbrill.com*2Fview*2Ftitle*2F54574__*3B!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBk8iLcReg*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412502616&sdata=q5ZRtmU7n76mwg2owaHdn8LcNDmLEHxREaF04n263AQ*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QITY6oecw$>
> Home Page
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.ethicalpolitics.org*2Fablunden*2Findex.htm__*3B!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBk7OSM06Y*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412512609&sdata=r3AyHyk8zmlFhrR7IW5kr51MZsY8ohkyUWlVW9jyKpM*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIaQ-1kB-$>
>
> --
>
>  fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of “as if”, therein
> lies its true   function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison
>
> ---------------------------------------------------
>
> For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other
> members of LCHC, visit
>
> lchc.ucsd.edu
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__http*3A*2Flchc.ucsd.edu__*3B!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBkAj8DVL0*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412512609&sdata=gpiCZeiosXnQSx4T2Qe3TjykJII53mXoOxw290oXsMA*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIX0clSVO$>.
> For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit
> lchcautobio.ucsd.edu
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__http*3A*2Flchcautobio.ucsd.edu__*3B!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBkRAeC65Q*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412522609&sdata=t2P5tYIsk3GCrG8v5UtA9qX28ejZW*2BnuLzQfRupbPL8*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIfoqvbhu$>
> .
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
>  fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of “as if”, therein
> lies its true   function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison
>
> ---------------------------------------------------
>
> For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other
> members of LCHC, visit
>
> lchc.ucsd.edu
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http*3A*2F*2Flchc.ucsd.edu&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412522609&sdata=7SppP1Yvcb2dKzCKoZVcsxSc317*2FVcl6Kpfghe0O2Hg*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIbLpkCwJ$>.
> For a narrative history of the research of LCHC, visit
> lchcautobio.ucsd.edu
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http*3A*2F*2Flchcautobio.ucsd.edu&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412532604&sdata=F8KGSR10*2BDM*2BkgdBt*2FCc9Nobo9vvGTCOGRRz6g9P*2FeY*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIReAJOUT$>
> .
>
>
>
>
>
>
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