[Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology?
Glassman, Michael
glassman.13@osu.edu
Wed Jan 15 11:42:59 PST 2020
I don't know, the sense I get is that he was really criticizing Musterberg, not embracing him, at least from what I read in Crisis. Vygotsky seems to believe we should be wary of this idea of a practical psychology that can use empirical means to look predict human behavior. One hint I get from the piece is his mention of using practical psychology to determine whether people should be tram drivers. To me it sounds like he was arguing also against the rising use of intelligence tests as a psychological tool. James brought over Musterberg in part I think to explore the idea of empirical psychology and Musterberg it seems wound up merging empirical and practical in ways that Vygotsky thought might be detrimental, rightfully suggesting it would send psychology towards the types of practical models of the physical sciences where it did not belong, something that I think has plagued the field since. At least from my reading of this piece is that Vygotsky also found it confusing that Musterberg by following James was also grabbing hold of an idealist vision of psychology, that people behave in certain ways because they were human. Vygotsky seemed to think that there was no way to reconcile this. At this moment I see this as sort of a precursor of where Vygotsky wanted to go, finding a way to merge the idealist vision with a material approach but not falling into a trap in either direction. He did not want to be Wundt and he did not want to be Musterberg, he definitely wanted nothing to do with the intelligence testers who combined "empirical" and practical psychology for ideological reasons (just recently heard about Thomas Teo's idea of epistemic violence. I think that might fit in here).
Michael
From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> On Behalf Of Jussi Silvonen
Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 1:15 PM
To: mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu>; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology?
Mike,
take a look at Internet Archive (archive.org), you can find PDF files of most of Münsterberg's books there. It is obvious, that Müsterberg had a great influence on LSV, at least in his theory's instrumental phase.
JusSi
----------------
Jussi Silvonen
Dosentti
Itä-Suomen yliopisto, Joensuun kampus
Kasvatustieteiden ja psykologian osasto
PL 111 (Metria)
80101 Joensuu
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Lähetetty: keskiviikko 15. tammikuuta 2020 19.56
Vastaanottaja: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu<mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
Aihe: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology?
In my view, Munsterberg was no fool and was deeply immersed in the problem of the "two psychologies" that LSV sought to supercede. For a quick take on "psychotechnics" in work, check his book out on google and search the term. For example,
Psychotechnics is really a technical science related to a causal [experimental-mc] psychology as engineering is related to physics. Psychotechnics necessarily refers to the future while the psychohistorical sciences refer to the past. (Munsterg, 1915, p.354)
It would be interesting to stage a discussion bertween Munsterberg and LSV. Which one would have more to say for his accomplishments view from, say, 2020?
And if someone has a pdf of the book, please sing out!
mike
On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 8:25 AM Glassman, Michael <glassman.13@osu.edu<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu>> wrote:
I don't know, I read it that he was criticizing Munsterberg with his discussion of psychotechnics, which I guess was the title of Munsterberg's last book. To meet it reads like Vygotsky was thinking Munsterberg was falling into a dangerous materialist trap. Maybe that's what you are saying Andy.
Michael
From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu<mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu<mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> On Behalf Of Andy Blunden
Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 2:39 AM
To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu<mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: useful psychology?
This is what I was looking for:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri12.htm#p1207<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.marxists.org*2Farchive*2Fvygotsky*2Fworks*2Fcrisis*2Fpsycri12.htm*p1207__*3BIw!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBkzm3Ep0s*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412462637&sdata=OBOvR6IPfkMeN4eKIcrZXz5aDBjX1t5LB6LokEBXrDg*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlKiUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIXDWyWWT$>
It was the exclusion of "psychotechnics" from the fundamental problems of psychology which he objected to. On the contrary, the philosophy of practice provided all the solutions to these problems. "The goal of such a psychology is not Shakespeare in concepts, as it was for Dilthey, but in one word - psychotechnics, i.e., a scientific theory which would lead to the subordination and mastery of the mind, to the artificial control of behaviour."
Thanks all.
Andy
________________________________
Andy Blunden
Hegel for Social Movements<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fbrill.com*2Fview*2Ftitle*2F54574__*3B!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBk8iLcReg*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412472638&sdata=hBx7qflf4m9p8uTE*2B4alLHqD4n1aMpxrwmV7dWRuyqc*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIZm3eJhg$>
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On 15/01/2020 3:09 pm, David Kellogg wrote:
But psychotechnics was really the Soviet version of human resource management. The idea was to select particular "types" for particular jobs. It wasn't really a Soviet idea--it started in Germany (and in fact, the Nazis were very big on it; the selection ramp at Auschwitz was based on it). In China, there was also quite a bit of emphasis on making sure that people suited the professions chosen for them, as education was a very scarce resource.
Isaac Spielrein--Sabine's brother, who was a colleague of Vygotsky--was a psychotechnician; his essay on the language of the Red Army soldier is written with that perspective in mind. And it was at a psychotechnic conference that Vygotsky was asked if there could be a pedology of adults, to aid in psychotechnic selection.
Vygotsky said no.
David Kellogg
Sangmyung University
New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i
in Mind Culture and Activity
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.tandfonline.com*2Fdoi*2Ffull*2F10.1080*2F10749039.2020.1711775__*3B!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBktaxJh-A*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412482626&sdata=yllUDzZhK8*2BCHvi8HXvoxP457gXRNAa8VYC*2FPC4PQtc*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIWQuZxxv$>
Some free e-prints available at:
https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.tandfonline.com*2Feprint*2FSK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY*2Ffull*3Ftarget*3D10.1080*10749039.2020.1711775__*3BLw!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBkmu8ynwE*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412482626&sdata=6*2B8dfqrBCex1zj*2Fmqw0i5RKwp0LGBvcc1zZjt*2BjGEjk*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlKiUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIUbsFhIY$>
New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: "L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works Volume One: Foundations of Pedology"
https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.springer.com*2Fgp*2Fbook*2F9789811505270__*3B!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBkiawojtY*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412492624&sdata=PDdGgIgXqxWaVkzWvkE*2B24nBKC6nX6Vv*2Bq1mROYzdMk*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QISHX4tYT$>
On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:02 PM mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu<mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu>> wrote:
Might you be looking for "psychotechnics" Andy?
Mike
On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 7:35 PM David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com<mailto:dkellogg60@gmail.com>> wrote:
Andy--
That really doesn't sound like Vygotsky to me.
Yes, he refers to art as the "social technique of emotion" (Psychology of Art). Yes, he did experiments on reading "Gentle Breath" to see if Bunin's short story had any affect on breathing rates. But as far as I know he had nothing to do with Luria's work on lie detectors (in The Nature of Human Conflict), and he was even rather skeptical of Luria's work on optical illusions in "uneducated" peoples
. Remember, this is the guy who denied that a general psychology could ever cut itself off from practice and vice versa (History of the Crisis in Psychology), who rejected the idea that thinking is speech with the sound turned off (Thinking and Speech). Besides, who ever heard of a technology opposed to an epistemology? What would that mean? A hand without a brain?
Vygotsky sounds more like this: "Neither the hand nor the brain left to itself can do much." Francis Bacon, Novum Organum (1620), Book 1, Aphorism 2.
David Kellogg
Sangmyung University
New Article: 'Commentary: On the originality of Vygotsky's "Thought and Word" i
in Mind Culture and Activity
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.tandfonline.com*2Fdoi*2Ffull*2F10.1080*2F10749039.2020.1711775__*3B!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBktaxJh-A*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412492624&sdata=BP3oUS62Il2ysAn5qg8wmdRgzXL88z*2FStKI*2Bh6VwUKw*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIW8z2T_v$>
Some free e-prints available at:
https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/SK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2020.1711775<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.tandfonline.com*2Feprint*2FSK2DR3TYBMJ42MFPYRFY*2Ffull*3Ftarget*3D10.1080*10749039.2020.1711775__*3BLw!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBkmu8ynwE*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412502616&sdata=sDCVNon8FCfDczqUlefwc6O6XRxMu7kgYtTX5KhfPSk*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlKiUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QIUEJFvpx$>
On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 11:49 AM Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org<mailto:andyb@marxists.org>> wrote:
There's somewhere where Vygotsky talks about psychology as a technology as opposed to (for example) an epistemology. Can anyone point me to where this observation is to be found. I can find it with my search engines. I think Vygotsky and Luria's invention of the lie-detector has been mentioned in this connection.
Andy
--
________________________________
Andy Blunden
Hegel for Social Movements<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fbrill.com*2Fview*2Ftitle*2F54574__*3B!!KGKeukY!kwgYnHOPX75Ybl3Dlo9PqMByhQGk_i4UVIzFuijyPSYMkYPw1dl1syiX0IBk8iLcReg*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C65f40880e53e4c1412c508d799e58718*7C87879f2e73044bf2baf263e7f83f3c34*7C0*7C0*7C637147083412502616&sdata=q5ZRtmU7n76mwg2owaHdn8LcNDmLEHxREaF04n263AQ*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!KGKeukY!mLhQUKQjrFOMsctcba8YuyUuqdKRguYi_RFCB738kunrmy7tUs2HLGZBW6feWd1QITY6oecw$>
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fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of "as if", therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison
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For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit
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fiction is but a form of symbolic action, a mere game of "as if", therein lies its true function and its potential for effecting change - R. Ellison
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For archival resources relevant to the research of myself and other members of LCHC, visit
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