[Xmca-l] Re: Covid as World Perezhivanie?
Andy Blunden
andyb@marxists.org
Sun Apr 26 05:21:22 PDT 2020
Successful response to a pandemic (incl. HIV) really does
depend on government action, I think, Mary, and governments
can be very much more or less effective in how they act. But
almost everything depends on *trust*, trust in government
and trust in each other. Trust is mediated of course, and if
a government is not trusted there are people who can broker
that trust, people like village, religious or community
leaders. A government which is not trusted can still be
successful if it can convince others to broker behavioural
change. Trust is largely a cultural and historical product.
Building trust between institutions such as expertise and
government, and the people takes a generation at least. Also
important is *social memory*. My generation still (just)
remembers polio.
Andy
------------------------------------------------------------
*Andy Blunden*
Hegel for Social Movements <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!XXBlOwiCZNpRloR2X8kg8q-y3GjNewWLhUptyr9R8Raj6XJf50RH3RBY6bc-pfXOXyyJGw$ >
Home Page <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!XXBlOwiCZNpRloR2X8kg8q-y3GjNewWLhUptyr9R8Raj6XJf50RH3RBY6bc-pfWXdy8LeQ$ >
On 26/04/2020 6:40 pm, Mary van der Riet wrote:
> I am struck in all of these conversations of the
> similarities with the HIV pandemic . We face these issues
> daily in the Southern African region (the highest
> prevalence of HIV globally).
> We say 'it depends on us', and revert to information
> sharing, and dependence on cognitive shifts and
> adaptations (all of the old behaviour change theories
> Theory of Reasoned Action; Health Belief Models)- see the
> risk, know what the risk means, know how to prevent it,
> and make changes to your behaviour in order to protect
> yourself.
> All of this is relevant for the COVID 10 pandemic, and
> much of it is not working. We as educated adults see the
> risk, know the risk, know how to protect ourselves (to the
> degree that scientists have informed us, and to the degree
> that science knows about the transmission) and yet it is
> really hard to change behaviour, to 'believe' that this is
> real
>
> And what does it mean for action? It means people don't
> social distance, don't use masks, see themselves as
> infallible etc.
>
> The origin of actions/activity do/does not reside in
> cognition...we know that from Activity theory, CHAT, etc.
>
> In the HIV pandemic in SA, there are still people who
> believe that you are fine if you cant see the symptoms
> (loss of weight, skin conditions, diarrohea - a fallacy by
> the way). A taxi driver said he would rather have HIV than
> Covid 19 because he could 'see' that someone was or was
> not HIV positive, but he is scared of Covid 19 because he
> cant 'see' it. Same discourse, same consequences.
> Then there was a period in SA where HIV public health
> messaging was about showing coffins, and symbols of death
> to try to get people to take in the seriousness of it all.
> Do we find this now? are those more directly infected
> (someone in their family, seeing someone ill with Covid 19
> - doctors, nurses)- more convinced about the nature of the
> problem). Perhaps not for some in the USA protesting this
> viral hoax. So, what changes behaviour?
>
> The question is the same - what is the motive that drives
> the health protection actions of individuals? The origin
> of behaviour is not individual cognition.
>
> Uganda was seen to have been so effective in reducing HIV
> incidence because it made HIV a notifiable disease. Is
> this draconian? Does it infringe on individual rights? [In
> SA we have not done that, we have a constitutional right
> to control and manage and keep private our HIV status; AND
> we have huge levels of stigma (extreme fear of going for
> an HIV test in a university context because people will
> 'see you there, and think you are HIV positive). At the
> same time, young women at universities are afraid of
> unplanned pregnancies because they are visible, (unlike
> HIV), and evidence of sexual activity. So, contradictions
> and tensions in practices around sexual activity in the
> context of 'risk' or vulnerability to HIV.] Governments
> who can instruct people how to behave (ie take the
> responsibility away from the individual) seem to have had
> more control over the spread of the virus (SA during
> lockdown). So a rule or a law which governs individual
> actions (and creating the context for an action,
> prescribing what might be 'afforded' in the context) might
> be more effective that the individual 'making a decision'
> If condom use amongst young people is not a 'norm' it is
> difficult for one person to engage with condom use.
>
> Do we need governments to set up the conditions for the
> actions of individuals?
>
> Mary
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> /Mary van der Riet (Phd), //Associate Professor/
> /Discipline of Psychology, //School of Applied Human
> Sciences, College of Humanities, University of
> KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa/
> /email: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za //tel: +27 33 260 6163/
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of Julian
> Williams <julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk>
> *Sent:* Saturday, 25 April 2020 20:24
> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Covid as World Perezhivanie?
> Martin, David
>
> Yes a lot depends... on ‘us’.
>
> Check out the report, where you can see how much was
> ‘predicted’ years ago, even the possible public outrage
> ensuing government failures ; but yes my decisive, main
> point was not to predict, but to ACT.
>
> David I agree the bioscience issues are important, but
> bear in mind that our sloppy public health systems
> globally ( eg with wild life markets) expose humanity to
> many new viruses ( they estimate 2-4 new viruses per year)
> - our relations and actions shape this threat.
>
> Then also not just immediately, but imaginatively, to play
> with models (and not just those reductive epidemiologists’
> ‘predictions’) .. but to imagineer a world subject that
> can act in future to tackle essentially GLOBAL challenges.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Julian
>
> On 25 Apr 2020, at 18:10, Martin Packer
> <mpacker@cantab.net <mailto:mpacker@cantab.net>> wrote:
>
>> That’s the problem with predicting - it all depends! :)
>>
>> Yes, coronavirus may become endemic, like flu or the
>> common cold or something worse.
>>
>> Or a vaccine may be developed.
>>
>> Or if 4 in 5 are somehow naturally resistant, and if most
>> of the 1 in 5 who become infected develop immunity as a
>> result, the incidence of covid could drop dramatically.
>>
>> Or we could all drink disinfectant.
>>
>> Martin
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 25, 2020, at 11:49 AM, David H Kirshner
>>> <dkirsh@lsu.edu <mailto:dkirsh@lsu.edu>> wrote:
>>>
>>> It is possible that the virus is eradicated, like SARS
>>> was, but that’s increasingly unlikely.
>>> More likely is that “2019-nCoV joins the four
>>> coronaviruses now circulating in people. ‘I can imagine
>>> a scenario where this becomes a fifth endemic human
>>> coronavirus,’ said Stephen Morse of Columbia
>>> University’s Mailman School of Public Health, an
>>> epidemiologist and expert on emerging infectious diseases.”
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.statnews.com/2020/02/04/two-scenarios-if-new-coronavirus-isnt-contained/__;!!Mih3wA!XXBlOwiCZNpRloR2X8kg8q-y3GjNewWLhUptyr9R8Raj6XJf50RH3RBY6bc-pfWdfOxBsQ$
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://protect-za.mimecast.com/s/6hDpCO796QhAZnyAIvt4ky?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!V5YwXt4bJDETL9xcWs6kuZZsMqErkVceRFwa2dL_DlncItiteXlABYhM1sEpMbPcPjQKww$>
>>> The fact that such a large proportion of people who
>>> contract the virus are asymptomatic make this one very
>>> hard to contain. Of course, the possibility of a vaccine
>>> would greatly reduce its human toll.
>>> David
>>> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu><xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>>*On Behalf
>>> Of*Martin Packer
>>> *Sent:*Saturday, April 25, 2020 11:14 AM
>>> *To:*eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>> *Subject:*[Xmca-l] Re: Covid as World Perezhivanie?
>>> David,
>>> There is talk about the possible eradication of the
>>> virus in Australia and New Zealand, from what I have
>>> read. Eradication is difficult when no one has
>>> resistance, but not impossible. Other virus infections
>>> have been eradicated, as far as one can tell, such as
>>> smallpox.
>>> In Wuhan, where the infections started, which is a city
>>> of around 11 million people, less that 70,000 cases were
>>> reported. Even if that is vastly underreported by a
>>> factor of 10 it is less than 10%. And studies in
>>> California suggest that only 1 in 5 have been infected,
>>> of whom 60% have not experienced any symptoms. Only
>>> around 5% need hospitalization.
>>> Martin
>>>
>>>
>>> On Apr 25, 2020, at 10:46 AM, David H Kirshner
>>> <dkirsh@lsu.edu <mailto:dkirsh@lsu.edu>> wrote:
>>> Martin,
>>> The scenario you sketched out is what I’d thought
>>> would/could happen, but the epidemiologists don’t
>>> ever talk about eradicating the virus, they just
>>> talk about slowing the spread so as not to overwhelm
>>> health care facilities. Eventually, everyone who can
>>> get it will get it. So a generation of older and
>>> weaker people will be adversely affected, many
>>> dying. It’s only in the next generation when most
>>> people have gotten it young that it will fade into
>>> the background, like the common cold.
>>> David
>>> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu><xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>>*On Behalf
>>> Of*Martin Packer
>>> *Sent:*Saturday, April 25, 2020 7:42 AM
>>> *To:*eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>> *Subject:*[Xmca-l] Re: Covid as World Perezhivanie?
>>> Julian,
>>> If no efforts are made to contain a virus it will
>>> move through a population in a single wave,
>>> infecting many people and then disappearing as no
>>> more potential hosts are available.
>>> If efforts to contain it — lockdown — are adequate
>>> there will be a single much smaller wave, followed
>>> again by elimination as hosts are not available.
>>> If containment is not effective — if people don’t
>>> isolate sufficiently — there may be a second wave
>>> when the containment is reduced. Or the first wave
>>> may not be controlled.
>>> As you say, each country is responding differently.
>>> Australia seems close to eliminating the virus after
>>> a single wave. The US and UK are somewhere between
>>> starting a second wave and still being in a poorly
>>> controlled first wave. Colombia seems to be still
>>> moving up its first wave.
>>> The behavior of a virus can be modeled, but only on
>>> the basis of assumptions about how people are going
>>> to behave. Since we cannot predict this behavior, we
>>> cannot even predict how the virus will or will not
>>> spread, let alone the political, economic and social
>>> consequences.
>>> To say this is not to be pessimistic; pessimism
>>> would be predicting a dire outcome. Rather, it
>>> highlights that the outcome lies in all our hands.
>>> Martin
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Apr 25, 2020, at 1:43 AM, Julian Williams
>>> <julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk
>>> <mailto:julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk>> wrote:
>>> Andy/Greg
>>> Each nation state appears to be ‘playing’ the
>>> pandemic in different ways (eg China, Italy,
>>> Australia, NZ, Sweden, UK, USA,… check out
>>> attached report which comes
>>> fromhttps://pandemic.internationalsos.com/2019-ncov
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://protect-za.mimecast.com/s/WKreCQ1LgVt6lOy6UkWzra?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!V5YwXt4bJDETL9xcWs6kuZZsMqErkVceRFwa2dL_DlncItiteXlABYhM1sEpMbPcULkNqg$> I
>>> get one of these reports every few days) while
>>> sometimes looking to other countries to see how
>>> their numbers are growing/falling (and mostly
>>> making a damn poor job of it).
>>> Before this all got going, the scientists
>>> already had a pretty good idea how a pandemic
>>> works, and even what needed to be done to
>>> prepare for
>>> it:https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/24/revealed-uk-ministers-were-warned-last-year-of-risks-of-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!XXBlOwiCZNpRloR2X8kg8q-y3GjNewWLhUptyr9R8Raj6XJf50RH3RBY6bc-pfUx-i4_3g$
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://protect-za.mimecast.com/s/_lv0CVmZn1Flk3RlUkGoAn?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!V5YwXt4bJDETL9xcWs6kuZZsMqErkVceRFwa2dL_DlncItiteXlABYhM1sEpMbM-6N4beg$>
>>> And now we know a bit more than we did then.
>>> There is a prediction/warning there about a
>>> number of pandemic waves…
>>> In the second ‘wave’, we – the world
>>> subject-in-formation may have learnt more, maybe
>>> there will be fewer deaths? Maybe we will
>>> rescue WHO, maybe not (I won’t predict). But
>>> maybe the science community will be paying
>>> serious attention, and especially to its duty to
>>> the ‘public good’. But there are some
>>> contradictory signs. In my own university we
>>> seem to be about to enter a new austerity,
>>> (implemented from the top by a failing
>>> leadership, led by a true academic, bio
>>> scientist no less!)
>>> What is clear is that the ‘public’ and its
>>> social movements are key to forcing each
>>> government to act, and that in almost all cases
>>> our leaders and rulers have followed along
>>> reluctantly – even while the science and the
>>> pandemic plan was there.
>>> In the third and subsequent waves? I agree it’s
>>> not predictable: the outcomes will depend
>>> entirely on all of ‘us’.
>>> And in the next ‘big one’, the climate collapse?
>>> Maybe all this pandemic ‘play’ will have helped
>>> prepare us, we maybe will learn how to build the
>>> institutions, policies etc for the world’s
>>> ‘public good’ in time. I still have hope.
>>> I use Vygotsky-Leontiev’s idea of ‘play’ as the
>>> leading activity of the pre-schooler, as I find
>>> it complements the notion of world perezhivanie
>>> – yes, we are experiencing trauma and that
>>> drives activity to overcome, etc, but also in
>>> this play we are acting, reflecting, and always
>>> – above all - imagining and re-imagining
>>> (modelling etc) our world future.
>>> Julian
>>> *From:*<xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> on
>>> behalf of Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org
>>> <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>>
>>> *Reply-To:*"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
>>> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>> *Date:*Saturday, 25 April 2020 at 02:08
>>> *To:*"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
>>> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>> *Subject:*[Xmca-l] Re: Covid as World Perezhivanie?
>>> Greg, the word is polysemic, as Mike said, but I
>>> agree with Michael that/perezhivaniya/are
>>> essentially collective experiences. As I say in
>>> the article, that COVID will be experienced
>>> differently in different countries, by different
>>> classes and social groups is an important part
>>> of this process. It does not detract it from its
>>> being a single experience.
>>> Huw, a "world subject" is emergent at this
>>> moment. It is implicit or "in-itself" but I look
>>> forward to the appearance of such a world
>>> subject, though who know how long and through
>>> what traumas we will pass before it is an
>>> actuality. Like WW2, the COVID pandemic part of
>>> its birth process.
>>>
>>> * https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/seminars/perezhivanie.htm__;!!Mih3wA!XXBlOwiCZNpRloR2X8kg8q-y3GjNewWLhUptyr9R8Raj6XJf50RH3RBY6bc-pfUrkX_5Jg$ ,
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://protect-za.mimecast.com/s/UMhMCX6Vp3CnD2znTM_08r?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!V5YwXt4bJDETL9xcWs6kuZZsMqErkVceRFwa2dL_DlncItiteXlABYhM1sEpMbNMRB4ufg$>Notes,
>>> links, excerpts, 2009
>>> * https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Blunden_article*response.pdf__;Kw!!Mih3wA!XXBlOwiCZNpRloR2X8kg8q-y3GjNewWLhUptyr9R8Raj6XJf50RH3RBY6bc-pfXZ1sPLTw$
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://protect-za.mimecast.com/s/gV6QCZ4Xr5CM8lpMcJR6Bn?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!V5YwXt4bJDETL9xcWs6kuZZsMqErkVceRFwa2dL_DlncItiteXlABYhM1sEpMbPSO2hngg$>,
>>> MCA article 2016
>>> * https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Coronavirus-pandemic.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!XXBlOwiCZNpRloR2X8kg8q-y3GjNewWLhUptyr9R8Raj6XJf50RH3RBY6bc-pfWh8WTqdg$
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://protect-za.mimecast.com/s/2Pc6C2RJD6SkZ19kF8rfOj?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!V5YwXt4bJDETL9xcWs6kuZZsMqErkVceRFwa2dL_DlncItiteXlABYhM1sEpMbOv5tCMuA$>
>>>
>>> Andy
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>> Hegel for Social Movements
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://protect-za.mimecast.com/s/KuihC3lJV7Cm9qEmTzYQ1D?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!V5YwXt4bJDETL9xcWs6kuZZsMqErkVceRFwa2dL_DlncItiteXlABYhM1sEpMbPsrc8S0g$>
>>> Home Page
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://protect-za.mimecast.com/s/YmbqC48KGgtJ9gvJuLtaRJ?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!V5YwXt4bJDETL9xcWs6kuZZsMqErkVceRFwa2dL_DlncItiteXlABYhM1sEpMbPIPBoc2g$>
>>> On 25/04/2020 4:01 am, Greg Thompson wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm wondering about Andy's suggestion that
>>> covid-19 is a (or maybe "is creating a"?)
>>> world perezhivanie. That seems a really rich
>>> suggestion but I'm not sure how many of us
>>> on the list really understand what he means
>>> by this.
>>> Andy tends to just tell me to go read more
>>> and so I'm wondering if someone else might
>>> be willing to take a stab at explaining what
>>> he might mean.
>>> Also, as a critical intervention, I am
>>> wondering whether covid-19 is the "same" for
>>> everyone. We have folks in the U.S. who
>>> think it is basically just a typical flu
>>> that has been turned into a political tool
>>> to attack the current president. Or does
>>> that not matter for perezhivanie?
>>> (and just to be clear, my question is not
>>> whether or not this is true or right or
>>> beautiful to think this way; my question is
>>> whether or not this is how people are
>>> actually experiencing the world since I
>>> assume that this is what perezhivanie is
>>> supposed to be "getting at". Or am I
>>> misunderstanding perezhivanie?)
>>> So is there really a shared perezhivanie here?
>>> (Is The Problem of Age the place to look for
>>> answers?)
>>> But if no one wants to take this up (perhaps
>>> too much ink has been spilt over
>>> perezhivanie?), that's fine too.
>>> Cheers,
>>> greg
>>> --
>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>>> Assistant Professor
>>> Department of Anthropology
>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
>>> Brigham Young University
>>> Provo, UT 84602
>>> WEBSITE:
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!XXBlOwiCZNpRloR2X8kg8q-y3GjNewWLhUptyr9R8Raj6XJf50RH3RBY6bc-pfVKZefPSg$
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://protect-za.mimecast.com/s/wXeAC66VKkCo0zBohE9bWA?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!V5YwXt4bJDETL9xcWs6kuZZsMqErkVceRFwa2dL_DlncItiteXlABYhM1sEpMbO7_a8clQ$>
>>>
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!XXBlOwiCZNpRloR2X8kg8q-y3GjNewWLhUptyr9R8Raj6XJf50RH3RBY6bc-pfXRMAXmDg$
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://protect-za.mimecast.com/s/zsL0C8qYKmUjP1KjfZu5le?domain=urldefense.com__;!!Mih3wA!V5YwXt4bJDETL9xcWs6kuZZsMqErkVceRFwa2dL_DlncItiteXlABYhM1sEpMbNtZXrGEg$>
>>>
>>> <Executive Summary 15 APRIL 2020 FINAL[1].docx>
>>>
>>
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