[Xmca-l] Re: Covid as World Perezhivanie?
Andy Blunden
andyb@marxists.org
Sat Apr 25 23:38:14 PDT 2020
That's fascinating, Derek. Oz managed a rapid and united
response for different historical reasons, and a certain
amount of luck, given the government's dreadful response to
the bushfires immediately before!
The reason that other East Asian countries have managed the
pandemic relatively well is that the people had experienced
SARS and H1N1 and understood right away what had to be done.
The UK report that Julian shared shows that too long a time
without experiencing a pandemic has made governments and
populations complacent.
Australia banned entrance from China the day after the US
did, but no country can refuse entry to its own nationals,
so Australia made everyone spend 2 weeks in Christmas Island
in quarantine before getting into Australia (the kind of
practice we have a long history of doing) while 40,000 US
residents have flown in from China without being tested
since the borders were supposedly closed. Europe was in the
same situation. Once you've missed the first few cases it is
a losing battle. As far as I can see, you either flatten the
curve as best you can to defend your ICU wards and wait for
the vaccine, or you start stopping people at county and
state borders and try to contain the spread. I think the
latter is untenable in the US, because of your history.
Andy
------------------------------------------------------------
*Andy Blunden*
Hegel for Social Movements <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!WGgHs_zSKh8g8CeIt24gJJ8-k7aof8F2QkK9PMgUMdpjNebgP3aQshyCSiOWPvXuZrEm4Q$ >
Home Page <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!WGgHs_zSKh8g8CeIt24gJJ8-k7aof8F2QkK9PMgUMdpjNebgP3aQshyCSiOWPvXwHJCyzA$ >
On 26/04/2020 3:21 pm, Derek Worley Patton wrote:
>
> Hi Martin, I rarely comment, but as to New Zealand, our
> prime minister and community health leader who is a
> community health expert and pointedly takes into consider
> the physical, mental, community and economic health (and
> other science advisors) all being of one mind (a Unity of
> thought, understanding and action) blessings to be
> thankful for, have both explained we are trying to
> “eliminate” the virus, which they explain is not the same
> as “eradicate”. The difference being we eliminate the
> transmission by quick identifying, tracking contacts,
> testing them, and treating rapidly. We can only maintain
> that by guarding the borders by putting everyone coming
> into the country into 2 weeks isolation in specially
> monitored hotels and motels. The virus is not eradicated
> in the sense that small pox is (not taking into account
> weapons or government labs keeping sample just in case to
> defend ourselves (we hope of course).
>
> Small point. But I think New Zealand is succeeding because
> of being somewhat of one mind, and one united response
> trained by other events. Here in Christchurch we had some
> big killer Quakes, then 20,000 after shocks over 3 to 5
> years. We have learned that little can be trusted
> including the earth, insurance companies, government
> beauracracies etc. What we do know we trust is that our
> neighbours (most of them) will be generous, kind and
> trustworthy in an emergency. Note our response to the
> Mosque massacre, as a city and as a nation.
>
> New Zealand, from my perspective as an American Quaker
> militant pacifist 1960s radical and having lived in
> Micronesia, Taiwan, China, Malaysia, Australia and
> visiting and work in Indonesia, Thailand and Kenya, is
> that NZ’s population has taken on a lot of Maori and
> Pacific Islander culture. They also think they are too far
> from the original European homes (UK particularly) to
> depend on that, and therefore will try to solve things
> themselves as a first reaction. Collectively, they think
> and act like a big spread out village and are fiercely
> defensive of their fair play.
>
> This is of course very hopefully the kind of national
> flexible and cooperative mindset that leads to cooperative
> culture change in the most useful direction. Kind
> regards, derek
>
> Dr Derek W Patton 白登德 M.Ed(Child & Family Psychology),
> PGDip, PhD
> Child & Family Psychologist, registered and practicing New
> Zealand
>
> Melbourne Graduate School of Education (PhD and Lecturer -
> 2009-2015)
>
> Honorary Fellow, research (2015 - 2020)
>
> *From: *Martin Packer <mailto:mpacker@cantab.net>
> *Sent: *Sunday, 26 April 2020 4:16 AM
> *To: *eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Covid as World Perezhivanie?
>
> David,
>
> There is talk about the possible eradication of the virus
> in Australia and New Zealand, from what I have read.
> Eradication is difficult when no one has resistance, but
> not impossible. Other virus infections have been
> eradicated, as far as one can tell, such as smallpox.
>
> In Wuhan, where the infections started, which is a city of
> around 11 million people, less that 70,000 cases were
> reported. Even if that is vastly underreported by a factor
> of 10 it is less than 10%. And studies in California
> suggest that only 1 in 5 have been infected, of whom 60%
> have not experienced any symptoms. Only around 5% need
> hospitalization.
>
> Martin
>
>
>
> On Apr 25, 2020, at 10:46 AM, David H Kirshner
> <dkirsh@lsu.edu <mailto:dkirsh@lsu.edu>> wrote:
>
> Martin,
>
> The scenario you sketched out is what I’d thought
> would/could happen, but the epidemiologists don’t ever
> talk about eradicating the virus, they just talk about
> slowing the spread so as not to overwhelm health care
> facilities. Eventually, everyone who can get it will
> get it. So a generation of older and weaker people
> will be adversely affected, many dying. It’s only in
> the next generation when most people have gotten it
> young that it will fade into the background, like the
> common cold.
>
> David
>
> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu><xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> *On Behalf
> Of *Martin Packer
> *Sent:* Saturday, April 25, 2020 7:42 AM
> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Covid as World Perezhivanie?
>
> Julian,
>
> If no efforts are made to contain a virus it will move
> through a population in a single wave, infecting many
> people and then disappearing as no more potential
> hosts are available.
>
> If efforts to contain it — lockdown — are adequate
> there will be a single much smaller wave, followed
> again by elimination as hosts are not available.
>
> If containment is not effective — if people don’t
> isolate sufficiently — there may be a second wave when
> the containment is reduced. Or the first wave may not
> be controlled.
>
> As you say, each country is responding differently.
> Australia seems close to eliminating the virus after a
> single wave. The US and UK are somewhere between
> starting a second wave and still being in a poorly
> controlled first wave. Colombia seems to be still
> moving up its first wave.
>
> The behavior of a virus can be modeled, but only on
> the basis of assumptions about how people are going to
> behave. Since we cannot predict this behavior, we
> cannot even predict how the virus will or will not
> spread, let alone the political, economic and social
> consequences.
>
> To say this is not to be pessimistic; pessimism would
> be predicting a dire outcome. Rather, it highlights
> that the outcome lies in all our hands.
>
> Martin
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 25, 2020, at 1:43 AM, Julian Williams
> <julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk
> <mailto:julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk>> wrote:
>
> Andy/Greg
>
> Each nation state appears to be ‘playing’ the
> pandemic in different ways (eg China, Italy,
> Australia, NZ, Sweden, UK, USA,… check out
> attached report which comes
> fromhttps://pandemic.internationalsos.com/2019-ncov
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fnam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com*2F*3Furl*3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fpandemic.internationalsos.com*2F2019-ncov__*3B!!Mih3wA!WPEOjoRcy7-0XGXGM7QSrXXC27_A4xJId659fiG4khvEeZtv3X_8vk3uo8LvLBuG_SQkBg*24*26data*3D02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C13d87711a64c4d5a186408d7e9164a3c*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637234154276903189*26sdata*3D61pgy27QZzEaALkKVjxPTn0pp*2FLGn21Yd1KrodJviwk*3D*26reserved*3D0__*3BJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!VMC7Q42-ZCLzlrlcxDalTU1dfGjI2uL5la5B1b-uJBs0lJmYIEwYo2Mjvs8OHpUWL5Hw3A*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C592b126a54ac459c7f8808d7e934038e*7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa*7C1*7C0*7C637234281910551774&sdata=KRaJFeRk7FJdpRdEgf4BaiCwqDUtNA*2BdmnHFAoFKZOw*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUqKioqKioqKioqKiUlKioqKioqKiolJSoqJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!Mih3wA!Q4qvi7b0Y3sDL-RrwL4yMtjalfXBsHEzLx83vWCt1cJ4KegxH5Zcl-jR8NaDNPi_LQAD6w$> I
> get one of these reports every few days) while
> sometimes looking to other countries to see how
> their numbers are growing/falling (and mostly
> making a damn poor job of it).
>
> Before this all got going, the scientists already
> had a pretty good idea how a pandemic works, and
> even what needed to be done to prepare for
> it:https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/24/revealed-uk-ministers-were-warned-last-year-of-risks-of-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!WGgHs_zSKh8g8CeIt24gJJ8-k7aof8F2QkK9PMgUMdpjNebgP3aQshyCSiOWPvUZAzIobw$
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fnam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com*2F*3Furl*3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fwww.theguardian.com*2Fworld*2F2020*2Fapr*2F24*2Frevealed-uk-ministers-were-warned-last-year-of-risks-of-coronavirus-pandemic__*3B!!Mih3wA!WPEOjoRcy7-0XGXGM7QSrXXC27_A4xJId659fiG4khvEeZtv3X_8vk3uo8LvLBuWZeIjdw*24*26data*3D02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C13d87711a64c4d5a186408d7e9164a3c*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637234154276903189*26sdata*3D94tZ8Ws2JeXxWr0KOQl5TSlVUXNaM8K5Td*2BQeE2nhC4*3D*26reserved*3D0__*3BJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!Mih3wA!VMC7Q42-ZCLzlrlcxDalTU1dfGjI2uL5la5B1b-uJBs0lJmYIEwYo2Mjvs8OHpUVP_4Izw*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C592b126a54ac459c7f8808d7e934038e*7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa*7C1*7C0*7C637234281910561770&sdata=kJ2sGSMhSgJktrW1mdKGM4YNOnL7JTUPaFu61Hqf1TU*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUqKioqKioqKioqKioqKiolJSoqKioqKioqJSUqKiUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!Mih3wA!Q4qvi7b0Y3sDL-RrwL4yMtjalfXBsHEzLx83vWCt1cJ4KegxH5Zcl-jR8NaDNPjkg0FQnA$>
>
> And now we know a bit more than we did then.
>
> There is a prediction/warning there about a number
> of pandemic waves…
>
> In the second ‘wave’, we – the world
> subject-in-formation may have learnt more, maybe
> there will be fewer deaths? Maybe we will rescue
> WHO, maybe not (I won’t predict). But maybe the
> science community will be paying serious
> attention, and especially to its duty to the
> ‘public good’. But there are some contradictory
> signs. In my own university we seem to be about to
> enter a new austerity, (implemented from the top
> by a failing leadership, led by a true academic,
> bio scientist no less!)
>
> What is clear is that the ‘public’ and its social
> movements are key to forcing each government to
> act, and that in almost all cases our leaders and
> rulers have followed along reluctantly – even
> while the science and the pandemic plan was there.
>
> In the third and subsequent waves? I agree it’s
> not predictable: the outcomes will depend entirely
> on all of ‘us’.
>
> And in the next ‘big one’, the climate collapse?
> Maybe all this pandemic ‘play’ will have helped
> prepare us, we maybe will learn how to build the
> institutions, policies etc for the world’s ‘public
> good’ in time. I still have hope.
>
> I use Vygotsky-Leontiev’s idea of ‘play’ as the
> leading activity of the pre-schooler, as I find it
> complements the notion of world perezhivanie –
> yes, we are experiencing trauma and that drives
> activity to overcome, etc, but also in this play
> we are acting, reflecting, and always – above all
> - imagining and re-imagining (modelling etc) our
> world future.
>
> Julian
>
> *From:*<xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> on
> behalf of Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org
> <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>>
> *Reply-To:*"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
> *Date:*Saturday, 25 April 2020 at 02:08
> *To:*"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
> *Subject:*[Xmca-l] Re: Covid as World Perezhivanie?
>
> Greg, the word is polysemic, as Mike said, but I
> agree with Michael that/perezhivaniya/are
> essentially collective experiences. As I say in
> the article, that COVID will be experienced
> differently in different countries, by different
> classes and social groups is an important part of
> this process. It does not detract it from its
> being a single experience.
>
> Huw, a "world subject" is emergent at this moment.
> It is implicit or "in-itself" but I look forward
> to the appearance of such a world subject, though
> who know how long and through what traumas we will
> pass before it is an actuality. Like WW2, the
> COVID pandemic part of its birth process.
>
> ·https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/seminars/perezhivanie.htm__;!!Mih3wA!WGgHs_zSKh8g8CeIt24gJJ8-k7aof8F2QkK9PMgUMdpjNebgP3aQshyCSiOWPvXxlK-cAg$ ,
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fnam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com*2F*3Furl*3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.ethicalpolitics.org*2Fseminars*2Fperezhivanie.htm__*3B!!Mih3wA!S8ALk6GlG2xHhKD5PZffsZwZSDgRm3dCjkxcBsYpsG0QakxKLngh6lBP1DDCY0iFFi2kTw*24*26data*3D02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C13d87711a64c4d5a186408d7e9164a3c*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637234154276913183*26sdata*3DUWpYeP4xzS0afWz5kuM1nprhHlVnPuBVcv9yE*2BF7ytU*3D*26reserved*3D0__*3BJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!VMC7Q42-ZCLzlrlcxDalTU1dfGjI2uL5la5B1b-uJBs0lJmYIEwYo2Mjvs8OHpWv_2tkhw*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C592b126a54ac459c7f8808d7e934038e*7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa*7C1*7C0*7C637234281910561770&sdata=M5VAROi14xQs*2B0F1vAFYfOuBAuQTZeue6oTOSJPre9Y*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUqKioqKioqKioqKiUlKioqKioqKiolJSoqJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!Mih3wA!Q4qvi7b0Y3sDL-RrwL4yMtjalfXBsHEzLx83vWCt1cJ4KegxH5Zcl-jR8NaDNPjW5Oeitw$>Notes,
> links, excerpts, 2009
>
> ·https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Blunden_article*response.pdf__;Kw!!Mih3wA!WGgHs_zSKh8g8CeIt24gJJ8-k7aof8F2QkK9PMgUMdpjNebgP3aQshyCSiOWPvWe3CoyrA$
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fnam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com*2F*3Furl*3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.ethicalpolitics.org*2Fablunden*2Fpdfs*2FBlunden_article*response.pdf__*3BKw!!Mih3wA!S8ALk6GlG2xHhKD5PZffsZwZSDgRm3dCjkxcBsYpsG0QakxKLngh6lBP1DDCY0jGnjh6xA*24*26data*3D02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C13d87711a64c4d5a186408d7e9164a3c*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637234154276913183*26sdata*3DQSMcC9MD*2BaCCgQnnoNCxe4xqFKvFEu81i4GwhAfZwEs*3D*26reserved*3D0__*3BJSUlJSUlJSUlJSolJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!Mih3wA!VMC7Q42-ZCLzlrlcxDalTU1dfGjI2uL5la5B1b-uJBs0lJmYIEwYo2Mjvs8OHpVWJq6pCA*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C592b126a54ac459c7f8808d7e934038e*7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa*7C1*7C0*7C637234281910571761&sdata=j6MwWYVxQ84ak17tJ95TW2kyByiAKnV*2F7h*2BSO6swcOk*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUqKioqKioqKioqKioqJSUqKioqKioqKiUlKiolJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!Mih3wA!Q4qvi7b0Y3sDL-RrwL4yMtjalfXBsHEzLx83vWCt1cJ4KegxH5Zcl-jR8NaDNPgjcNZnKw$>,
> MCA article 2016
>
> ·https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Coronavirus-pandemic.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!WGgHs_zSKh8g8CeIt24gJJ8-k7aof8F2QkK9PMgUMdpjNebgP3aQshyCSiOWPvU4PIYb9A$
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fnam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com*2F*3Furl*3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.ethicalpolitics.org*2Fablunden*2Fpdfs*2FCoronavirus-pandemic.pdf__*3B!!Mih3wA!S8ALk6GlG2xHhKD5PZffsZwZSDgRm3dCjkxcBsYpsG0QakxKLngh6lBP1DDCY0iFrpl65A*24*26data*3D02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C13d87711a64c4d5a186408d7e9164a3c*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637234154276923178*26sdata*3DDTOj2Akqw9YK3oaKKoS3rDy5REPwdCsMx0SMyG5z83Y*3D*26reserved*3D0__*3BJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!VMC7Q42-ZCLzlrlcxDalTU1dfGjI2uL5la5B1b-uJBs0lJmYIEwYo2Mjvs8OHpWUL5l0GA*24&data=02*7C01*7C*7C592b126a54ac459c7f8808d7e934038e*7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa*7C1*7C0*7C637234281910571761&sdata=9WMvaig6Ecejznwx8nvpBdvqmQoFujjGoNn3jkPK4ws*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUqKioqKioqKioqKiolJSoqKioqKioqJSUqJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!Q4qvi7b0Y3sDL-RrwL4yMtjalfXBsHEzLx83vWCt1cJ4KegxH5Zcl-jR8NaDNPjgsa4CpA$>
>
> Andy
>
> *Andy Blunden*
> Hegel for Social Movements
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>
> On 25/04/2020 4:01 am, Greg Thompson wrote:
>
> I'm wondering about Andy's suggestion that
> covid-19 is a (or maybe "is creating a"?)
> world perezhivanie. That seems a really rich
> suggestion but I'm not sure how many of us on
> the list really understand what he means by this.
>
> Andy tends to just tell me to go read more and
> so I'm wondering if someone else might be
> willing to take a stab at explaining what he
> might mean.
>
> Also, as a critical intervention, I am
> wondering whether covid-19 is the "same" for
> everyone. We have folks in the U.S. who think
> it is basically just a typical flu that has
> been turned into a political tool to attack
> the current president. Or does that not matter
> for perezhivanie?
>
> (and just to be clear, my question is not
> whether or not this is true or right or
> beautiful to think this way; my question is
> whether or not this is how people are actually
> experiencing the world since I assume that
> this is what perezhivanie is supposed to be
> "getting at". Or am I misunderstanding
> perezhivanie?)
>
> So is there really a shared perezhivanie here?
>
> (Is The Problem of Age the place to look for
> answers?)
>
> But if no one wants to take this up (perhaps
> too much ink has been spilt over
> perezhivanie?), that's fine too.
>
> Cheers,
>
> greg
>
> --
>
> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>
> Assistant Professor
>
> Department of Anthropology
>
> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
>
> Brigham Young University
>
> Provo, UT 84602
>
> WEBSITE:
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>
> <Executive Summary 15 APRIL 2020 FINAL[1].docx>
>
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