[Xmca-l] Re: Covid as World Perezhivanie?

Sat Apr 25 19:56:32 PDT 2020

Andy,

I wish I could give an update as precise as you did about what the plans
are here in the U.S. but it's the Wild West here and nobody knows what our
government's plan is or even if there is one. One day it's all up to the
governors of individual states. The next it's not. Then it is. Then
the governors are being too restrictive and state lock-downs are government
overreach (like Hitler you know). Then states governors are opening too
soon. Then there's a cure on the horizon. Then he was just being joking.
(and that's just what comes from the orange haired fellow in the White
House).

I can't imagine that cell phone tracking will go anywhere in the U.S. It
seems to be a great solution and have worked great in South Korea but
Hitler, you know (you think I'm joking? What's that great libertarian
saying? Live free or die. That about sums it up.)

Not seeing any world subject formation happening here, not even one in the
making. Frankly I'd say that I'm seeing quite the opposite - even further
divisions into "national subjects" - even sub-national subjects (e.g.,
differentiation by race and class and political party here in the U.S. -
radical political divisions have developed like I've not seen in my
lifetime).

That isn't to say that there aren't great possibilities for communality and
universality in this historical moment but I'm just not seeing that
potential being realized here in the U.S. But maybe this is just an
American phenomenon and the rest of the world is coming together as a
result of this worldwide pandemic?

-greg

On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 7:22 PM Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:

> Exactly. If you think you've eliminated it and just *one person* gets
> through the net with the virus, you have a whole country of 25m people
> without immunity and it doubles every 3 days. So the point is to be able to
> jump on every single case. That's why we don't here talk of *eradication*
> before everyone is vaccinated,
>
> Andy
> ------------------------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> Hegel for Social Movements
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!RumoRqh_imI3l8k14a-ZOV8G9j2p3_39l4wGZsdmD1AoF2iw1rYMV05Jp5-53DcO_-3e8A$>
> Home Page
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm__;!!Mih3wA!RumoRqh_imI3l8k14a-ZOV8G9j2p3_39l4wGZsdmD1AoF2iw1rYMV05Jp5-53DeTblOMAA$>
> On 26/04/2020 11:03 am, Martin Packer wrote:
>
> I was reacting to this, Andy
>
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.smh.com.au/national/prison-nursing-home-outbreaks-and-re-importations-the-greatest-risk-to-eradicating-coronavirus-experts-20200424-p54mst.html__;!!Mih3wA!RpVBIng2RGUdYKVd3WA1Hlf0WV4R4vcO4srvtehs3fMuytJK02EQ9VvrTpLyrowK0o0B4w$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.smh.com.au/national/prison-nursing-home-outbreaks-and-re-importations-the-greatest-risk-to-eradicating-coronavirus-experts-20200424-p54mst.html__;!!Mih3wA!XFj6xa7MfKZopz75DYrrcHSqPA3WSwQ92unPhMqXk3gchGKGOtobMR5zxcOBpfMrGnC29g$>
>
> Two leading epidemiologists fear outbreaks in prisons or nursing homes,
> and re-importations – unwitting or malicious – pose the greatest risks of
> any attempt to eradicate coronavirus in Australia.
>
> The federal government is pursuing a strategy of virus suppression, but
> as the numbers of new daily cases continue to fall, elimination
> seems increasingly enticing to many.
>
>
> Martin
>
>
>
> On Apr 25, 2020, at 7:37 PM, Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:
>
> New Zealand's aim is *eradication*, leading to a full return to normal
> life behind a quarantine wall.
>
> Australia's aim is *suppression*. As it happens, we are likely to get to
> zero cases as fast as NZ, but the difference is that Australia is planning
> towards equipping ourselves with the Tracking App on everyone's phones,
> lots of test kits and thousands of people trained and prepared to test. It
> is assumed that whatever we do, there will be outbreaks, and you could get
> those waves of infection, and the capacity to return to normal life depends
> on the ability to contact-trace, test and quarantine with speed and
> accuracy. The infection rate is currently so low (about 12 a day in pop. of
> 25m) that we could go back to normal now, if the testing infrastructure was
> in place. Actually, the population is largely resisting the return to work
> at the moment. The teachers don't want all the kids back at school.
>
> It is possible that Oz and NZ will share a quarantine zone until the
> vaccine is in use.
>
> Andy
> ------------------------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> Hegel for Social Movements
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://brill.com/view/title/54574__;!!Mih3wA!XP82Sp95CB9oMNBLZHUfIx2o1vh2230Ejyvp5QYESvRIHhKnxQdoi3JOZIGaMAgWVo7XtA$>
> Home Page
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> On 26/04/2020 2:14 am, Martin Packer wrote:
>
> David,
>
> There is talk about the possible eradication of the virus in Australia and
> New Zealand, from what I have read. Eradication is difficult when no one
> has resistance, but not impossible. Other virus infections have been
> eradicated, as far as one can tell, such as smallpox.
>
> In Wuhan, where the infections started, which is a city of around 11
> million people, less that 70,000 cases were reported. Even if that is
> vastly underreported by a factor of 10 it is less than 10%.  And studies in
> California suggest that only 1 in 5 have been infected, of whom 60% have
> not experienced any symptoms. Only around 5% need hospitalization.
>
> Martin
>
>
> On Apr 25, 2020, at 10:46 AM, David H Kirshner <dkirsh@lsu.edu> wrote:
>
> Martin,
>
> The scenario you sketched out is what I’d thought would/could happen, but
> the epidemiologists don’t ever talk about eradicating the virus, they just
> talk about slowing the spread so as not to overwhelm health care
> facilities. Eventually, everyone who can get it will get it. So a
> generation of older and weaker people will be adversely affected, many
> dying. It’s only in the next generation when most people have gotten it
> young that it will fade into the background, like the common cold.
>
> David
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> *On
> Behalf Of *Martin Packer
> *Sent:* Saturday, April 25, 2020 7:42 AM
> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Covid as World Perezhivanie?
>
>
>
> Julian,
>
>
>
> If no efforts are made to contain a virus it will move through a
> population in a single wave, infecting many people and then disappearing as
> no more potential hosts are available.
>
>
>
> If efforts to contain it — lockdown — are adequate there will be a single
> much smaller wave, followed again by elimination as hosts are not available.
>
>
>
> If containment is not effective — if people don’t isolate sufficiently —
> there may be a second wave when the containment is reduced. Or the first
> wave may not be controlled.
>
>
>
> As you say, each country is responding differently. Australia seems close
> to eliminating the virus after a single wave. The US and UK are somewhere
> between starting a second wave and still being in a poorly controlled first
> wave. Colombia seems to be still moving up its first wave.
>
>
>
> The behavior of a virus can be modeled, but only on the basis of
> assumptions about how people are going to behave. Since we cannot predict
> this behavior, we cannot even predict how the virus will or will not
> spread, let alone the political, economic and social consequences.
>
>
>
> To say this is not to be pessimistic; pessimism would be predicting a dire
> outcome. Rather, it highlights that the outcome lies in all our hands.
>
>
>
> Martin
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 25, 2020, at 1:43 AM, Julian Williams <
> julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
> Andy/Greg
>
>
>
> Each nation state appears to be ‘playing’ the pandemic in different ways
> (eg China, Italy, Australia, NZ, Sweden, UK, USA,… check out attached
> report which comes from https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://pandemic.internationalsos.com/2019-ncov__;!!Mih3wA!RpVBIng2RGUdYKVd3WA1Hlf0WV4R4vcO4srvtehs3fMuytJK02EQ9VvrTpLyroweKBb5TQ$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fpandemic.internationalsos.com*2F2019-ncov__*3B!!Mih3wA!WPEOjoRcy7-0XGXGM7QSrXXC27_A4xJId659fiG4khvEeZtv3X_8vk3uo8LvLBuG_SQkBg*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C13d87711a64c4d5a186408d7e9164a3c*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637234154276903189&sdata=61pgy27QZzEaALkKVjxPTn0pp*2FLGn21Yd1KrodJviwk*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!VMC7Q42-ZCLzlrlcxDalTU1dfGjI2uL5la5B1b-uJBs0lJmYIEwYo2Mjvs8OHpUWL5Hw3A$>
>     I get one of these reports every few days)  while sometimes looking
> to other countries to see how their numbers are growing/falling (and mostly
> making a damn poor job of it).
>
>
>
> Before this all got going, the scientists already had a pretty good idea
> how a pandemic works, and even what needed to be done to prepare for it:
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/24/revealed-uk-ministers-were-warned-last-year-of-risks-of-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!RpVBIng2RGUdYKVd3WA1Hlf0WV4R4vcO4srvtehs3fMuytJK02EQ9VvrTpLyroyoaq4CIg$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fwww.theguardian.com*2Fworld*2F2020*2Fapr*2F24*2Frevealed-uk-ministers-were-warned-last-year-of-risks-of-coronavirus-pandemic__*3B!!Mih3wA!WPEOjoRcy7-0XGXGM7QSrXXC27_A4xJId659fiG4khvEeZtv3X_8vk3uo8LvLBuWZeIjdw*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C13d87711a64c4d5a186408d7e9164a3c*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637234154276903189&sdata=94tZ8Ws2JeXxWr0KOQl5TSlVUXNaM8K5Td*2BQeE2nhC4*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!Mih3wA!VMC7Q42-ZCLzlrlcxDalTU1dfGjI2uL5la5B1b-uJBs0lJmYIEwYo2Mjvs8OHpUVP_4Izw$>
>
> And now we know a bit more than we did then.
>
>
>
> There is a prediction/warning there about a number of pandemic waves…
>
>
>
> In the second ‘wave’, we – the world subject-in-formation may have learnt
> more, maybe there will be fewer deaths?  Maybe we will rescue WHO, maybe
> not (I won’t predict). But maybe the science community will be paying
> serious attention, and especially to its duty to the ‘public good’. But
> there are some contradictory signs. In my own university we seem to be
> about to enter a new austerity, (implemented from the top by a failing
> leadership, led by a true academic, bio scientist no less!)
>
>
>
> What is clear is that the ‘public’ and its social movements are key to
> forcing each government to act, and that in almost all cases our leaders
> and rulers have followed along reluctantly – even while the science and the
> pandemic plan was there.
>
>
>
> In the third and subsequent waves? I agree it’s not predictable: the
> outcomes will depend entirely on all of ‘us’.
>
>
>
> And in the next ‘big one’, the climate collapse? Maybe all this pandemic
> ‘play’ will have helped prepare us, we maybe will learn how to build the
> institutions, policies etc for the world’s ‘public good’ in time. I still
> have hope.
>
>
>
> I use Vygotsky-Leontiev’s idea of ‘play’ as the leading activity of the
> pre-schooler, as I find it complements the notion of world perezhivanie –
> yes, we are experiencing trauma and that drives activity to overcome, etc,
> but also in this play we are acting, reflecting, and always – above all -
> imagining and re-imagining (modelling etc) our world future.
>
>
>
> Julian
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *<xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of Andy Blunden <
> andyb@marxists.org>
> *Reply-To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Date: *Saturday, 25 April 2020 at 02:08
> *To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Covid as World Perezhivanie?
>
>
>
> Greg, the word is polysemic, as Mike said, but I agree with Michael that
> *perezhivaniya* are essentially collective experiences. As I say in the
> article, that COVID will be experienced differently in different countries,
> by different classes and social groups is an important part of this
> process. It does not detract it from its being a single experience.
>
> Huw, a "world subject" is emergent at this moment. It is implicit or
> "in-itself" but I look forward to the appearance of such a world subject,
> though who know how long and through what traumas we will pass before it is
> an actuality. Like WW2, the COVID pandemic part of its birth process.
>
>    - https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/seminars/perezhivanie.htm__;!!Mih3wA!RpVBIng2RGUdYKVd3WA1Hlf0WV4R4vcO4srvtehs3fMuytJK02EQ9VvrTpLyroxxkScsfg$ ,
>    <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.ethicalpolitics.org*2Fseminars*2Fperezhivanie.htm__*3B!!Mih3wA!S8ALk6GlG2xHhKD5PZffsZwZSDgRm3dCjkxcBsYpsG0QakxKLngh6lBP1DDCY0iFFi2kTw*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C13d87711a64c4d5a186408d7e9164a3c*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637234154276913183&sdata=UWpYeP4xzS0afWz5kuM1nprhHlVnPuBVcv9yE*2BF7ytU*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!VMC7Q42-ZCLzlrlcxDalTU1dfGjI2uL5la5B1b-uJBs0lJmYIEwYo2Mjvs8OHpWv_2tkhw$>
>     Notes, links, excerpts, 2009
>    -
>    https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Blunden_article*response.pdf__;Kw!!Mih3wA!RpVBIng2RGUdYKVd3WA1Hlf0WV4R4vcO4srvtehs3fMuytJK02EQ9VvrTpLyrozQDxzq6A$ 
>    <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.ethicalpolitics.org*2Fablunden*2Fpdfs*2FBlunden_article*response.pdf__*3BKw!!Mih3wA!S8ALk6GlG2xHhKD5PZffsZwZSDgRm3dCjkxcBsYpsG0QakxKLngh6lBP1DDCY0jGnjh6xA*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C13d87711a64c4d5a186408d7e9164a3c*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637234154276913183&sdata=QSMcC9MD*2BaCCgQnnoNCxe4xqFKvFEu81i4GwhAfZwEs*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSolJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!Mih3wA!VMC7Q42-ZCLzlrlcxDalTU1dfGjI2uL5la5B1b-uJBs0lJmYIEwYo2Mjvs8OHpVWJq6pCA$>,
>    MCA article 2016
>    -
>    https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Coronavirus-pandemic.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!RpVBIng2RGUdYKVd3WA1Hlf0WV4R4vcO4srvtehs3fMuytJK02EQ9VvrTpLyroxpR1iEiQ$ 
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>
> Andy
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *Andy Blunden*
> Hegel for Social Movements
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fbrill.com*2Fview*2Ftitle*2F54574__*3B!!Mih3wA!S8ALk6GlG2xHhKD5PZffsZwZSDgRm3dCjkxcBsYpsG0QakxKLngh6lBP1DDCY0gisOQgKQ*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C13d87711a64c4d5a186408d7e9164a3c*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637234154276923178&sdata=8QFkTyVJ7t6xKEcWSMIhFD5pcgleiwGHQ1sGG*2FsMxMA*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!Mih3wA!VMC7Q42-ZCLzlrlcxDalTU1dfGjI2uL5la5B1b-uJBs0lJmYIEwYo2Mjvs8OHpVQ2V1c_g$>
> Home Page
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>
> On 25/04/2020 4:01 am, Greg Thompson wrote:
>
> I'm wondering about Andy's suggestion that covid-19 is a (or maybe "is
> creating a"?) world perezhivanie. That seems a really rich suggestion but
> I'm not sure how many of us on the list really understand what he means by
> this.
>
>
>
> Andy tends to just tell me to go read more and so I'm wondering if someone
> else might be willing to take a stab at explaining what he might mean.
>
>
>
> Also, as a critical intervention, I am wondering whether covid-19 is the
> "same" for everyone. We have folks in the U.S. who think it is basically
> just a typical flu that has been turned into a political tool to attack the
> current president. Or does that not matter for perezhivanie?
>
>
>
> (and just to be clear, my question is not whether or not this is true or
> right or beautiful to think this way; my question is whether or not this is
> how people are actually experiencing the world since I assume that this is
> what perezhivanie is supposed to be "getting at". Or am I misunderstanding
> perezhivanie?)
>
>
>
> So is there really a shared perezhivanie here?
>
> (Is The Problem of Age the place to look for answers?)
>
>
>
> But if no one wants to take this up (perhaps too much ink has been spilt
> over perezhivanie?), that's fine too.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> greg
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>
> Assistant Professor
>
> Department of Anthropology
>
> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
>
> Brigham Young University
>
> Provo, UT 84602
>
> WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!RpVBIng2RGUdYKVd3WA1Hlf0WV4R4vcO4srvtehs3fMuytJK02EQ9VvrTpLyroxaeMQEpA$ 
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>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!RpVBIng2RGUdYKVd3WA1Hlf0WV4R4vcO4srvtehs3fMuytJK02EQ9VvrTpLyrox6lXxzbA$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__http*3A*2Fbyu.academia.edu*2FGregoryThompson__*3B!!Mih3wA!WN8l_yYMTbBnmCBcPiLWU5hQYwPZIdGtHFRjEQb6reqIHexrpd3i0uUYNZy2lRg*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C13d87711a64c4d5a186408d7e9164a3c*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637234154276943163&sdata=mkbS8fib0Ix7c1x8mKscH0zNyJRb39Pl89dFqmkpP*2FY*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!Mih3wA!VMC7Q42-ZCLzlrlcxDalTU1dfGjI2uL5la5B1b-uJBs0lJmYIEwYo2Mjvs8OHpUlTVlJGQ$>
>
> <Executive Summary 15 APRIL 2020 FINAL[1].docx>
>
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>

-- 
Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor
Department of Anthropology
880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
Brigham Young University
Provo, UT 84602
WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!RpVBIng2RGUdYKVd3WA1Hlf0WV4R4vcO4srvtehs3fMuytJK02EQ9VvrTpLyroxaeMQEpA$ 
https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!RpVBIng2RGUdYKVd3WA1Hlf0WV4R4vcO4srvtehs3fMuytJK02EQ9VvrTpLyrox6lXxzbA$ 
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