[Xmca-l] Re: Covid as World Perezhivanie?

Sat Apr 25 09:14:09 PDT 2020

David,

There is talk about the possible eradication of the virus in Australia and New Zealand, from what I have read. Eradication is difficult when no one has resistance, but not impossible. Other virus infections have been eradicated, as far as one can tell, such as smallpox.

In Wuhan, where the infections started, which is a city of around 11 million people, less that 70,000 cases were reported. Even if that is vastly underreported by a factor of 10 it is less than 10%.  And studies in California suggest that only 1 in 5 have been infected, of whom 60% have not experienced any symptoms. Only around 5% need hospitalization.

Martin

> On Apr 25, 2020, at 10:46 AM, David H Kirshner <dkirsh@lsu.edu> wrote:
> 
> Martin,
> The scenario you sketched out is what I’d thought would/could happen, but the epidemiologists don’t ever talk about eradicating the virus, they just talk about slowing the spread so as not to overwhelm health care facilities. Eventually, everyone who can get it will get it. So a generation of older and weaker people will be adversely affected, many dying. It’s only in the next generation when most people have gotten it young that it will fade into the background, like the common cold.
> David
>  
>  
> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> On Behalf Of Martin Packer
> Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2020 7:42 AM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Covid as World Perezhivanie?
>  
> Julian,
>  
> If no efforts are made to contain a virus it will move through a population in a single wave, infecting many people and then disappearing as no more potential hosts are available.
>  
> If efforts to contain it — lockdown — are adequate there will be a single much smaller wave, followed again by elimination as hosts are not available.
>  
> If containment is not effective — if people don’t isolate sufficiently — there may be a second wave when the containment is reduced. Or the first wave may not be controlled.
>  
> As you say, each country is responding differently. Australia seems close to eliminating the virus after a single wave. The US and UK are somewhere between starting a second wave and still being in a poorly controlled first wave. Colombia seems to be still moving up its first wave.
>  
> The behavior of a virus can be modeled, but only on the basis of assumptions about how people are going to behave. Since we cannot predict this behavior, we cannot even predict how the virus will or will not spread, let alone the political, economic and social consequences.
>  
> To say this is not to be pessimistic; pessimism would be predicting a dire outcome. Rather, it highlights that the outcome lies in all our hands. 
>  
> Martin
>  
>  
> 
> 
> On Apr 25, 2020, at 1:43 AM, Julian Williams <julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk <mailto:julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk>> wrote:
>  
> Andy/Greg
>  
> Each nation state appears to be ‘playing’ the pandemic in different ways (eg China, Italy, Australia, NZ, Sweden, UK, USA,… check out attached report which comes from https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://pandemic.internationalsos.com/2019-ncov__;!!Mih3wA!VwBsj00MBi6ONGWDCcyeSQZliSKY_2S7PNTX-m0RU_-7tWJ9eneRQ6BIQG50Of8ekLqC7Q$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fpandemic.internationalsos.com*2F2019-ncov__*3B!!Mih3wA!WPEOjoRcy7-0XGXGM7QSrXXC27_A4xJId659fiG4khvEeZtv3X_8vk3uo8LvLBuG_SQkBg*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C13d87711a64c4d5a186408d7e9164a3c*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637234154276903189&sdata=61pgy27QZzEaALkKVjxPTn0pp*2FLGn21Yd1KrodJviwk*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!VMC7Q42-ZCLzlrlcxDalTU1dfGjI2uL5la5B1b-uJBs0lJmYIEwYo2Mjvs8OHpUWL5Hw3A$>    I get one of these reports every few days)  while sometimes looking to other countries to see how their numbers are growing/falling (and mostly making a damn poor job of it).
>  
> Before this all got going, the scientists already had a pretty good idea how a pandemic works, and even what needed to be done to prepare for it: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/24/revealed-uk-ministers-were-warned-last-year-of-risks-of-coronavirus-pandemic__;!!Mih3wA!VwBsj00MBi6ONGWDCcyeSQZliSKY_2S7PNTX-m0RU_-7tWJ9eneRQ6BIQG50Of_Wv0wtdA$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fwww.theguardian.com*2Fworld*2F2020*2Fapr*2F24*2Frevealed-uk-ministers-were-warned-last-year-of-risks-of-coronavirus-pandemic__*3B!!Mih3wA!WPEOjoRcy7-0XGXGM7QSrXXC27_A4xJId659fiG4khvEeZtv3X_8vk3uo8LvLBuWZeIjdw*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C13d87711a64c4d5a186408d7e9164a3c*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637234154276903189&sdata=94tZ8Ws2JeXxWr0KOQl5TSlVUXNaM8K5Td*2BQeE2nhC4*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!Mih3wA!VMC7Q42-ZCLzlrlcxDalTU1dfGjI2uL5la5B1b-uJBs0lJmYIEwYo2Mjvs8OHpUVP_4Izw$>
> And now we know a bit more than we did then.
>  
> There is a prediction/warning there about a number of pandemic waves…
>  
> In the second ‘wave’, we – the world subject-in-formation may have learnt more, maybe there will be fewer deaths?  Maybe we will rescue WHO, maybe not (I won’t predict). But maybe the science community will be paying serious attention, and especially to its duty to the ‘public good’. But there are some contradictory signs. In my own university we seem to be about to enter a new austerity, (implemented from the top by a failing leadership, led by a true academic, bio scientist no less!)  
>  
> What is clear is that the ‘public’ and its social movements are key to forcing each government to act, and that in almost all cases our leaders and rulers have followed along reluctantly – even while the science and the pandemic plan was there.
>  
> In the third and subsequent waves? I agree it’s not predictable: the outcomes will depend entirely on all of ‘us’.
>  
> And in the next ‘big one’, the climate collapse? Maybe all this pandemic ‘play’ will have helped prepare us, we maybe will learn how to build the institutions, policies etc for the world’s ‘public good’ in time. I still have hope.
>  
> I use Vygotsky-Leontiev’s idea of ‘play’ as the leading activity of the pre-schooler, as I find it complements the notion of world perezhivanie – yes, we are experiencing trauma and that drives activity to overcome, etc, but also in this play we are acting, reflecting, and always – above all - imagining and re-imagining (modelling etc) our world future.
>  
> Julian
>  
>  
>  
> From: <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> on behalf of Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>>
> Reply-To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
> Date: Saturday, 25 April 2020 at 02:08
> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Covid as World Perezhivanie?
>  
> Greg, the word is polysemic, as Mike said, but I agree with Michael that perezhivaniya are essentially collective experiences. As I say in the article, that COVID will be experienced differently in different countries, by different classes and social groups is an important part of this process. It does not detract it from its being a single experience.
> Huw, a "world subject" is emergent at this moment. It is implicit or "in-itself" but I look forward to the appearance of such a world subject, though who know how long and through what traumas we will pass before it is an actuality. Like WW2, the COVID pandemic part of its birth process.
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/seminars/perezhivanie.htm__;!!Mih3wA!VwBsj00MBi6ONGWDCcyeSQZliSKY_2S7PNTX-m0RU_-7tWJ9eneRQ6BIQG50Of_LPnWbQw$ , <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.ethicalpolitics.org*2Fseminars*2Fperezhivanie.htm__*3B!!Mih3wA!S8ALk6GlG2xHhKD5PZffsZwZSDgRm3dCjkxcBsYpsG0QakxKLngh6lBP1DDCY0iFFi2kTw*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C13d87711a64c4d5a186408d7e9164a3c*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637234154276913183&sdata=UWpYeP4xzS0afWz5kuM1nprhHlVnPuBVcv9yE*2BF7ytU*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!VMC7Q42-ZCLzlrlcxDalTU1dfGjI2uL5la5B1b-uJBs0lJmYIEwYo2Mjvs8OHpWv_2tkhw$> Notes, links, excerpts, 2009 
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Blunden_article*response.pdf__;Kw!!Mih3wA!VwBsj00MBi6ONGWDCcyeSQZliSKY_2S7PNTX-m0RU_-7tWJ9eneRQ6BIQG50Of8RZOrIAQ$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.ethicalpolitics.org*2Fablunden*2Fpdfs*2FBlunden_article*response.pdf__*3BKw!!Mih3wA!S8ALk6GlG2xHhKD5PZffsZwZSDgRm3dCjkxcBsYpsG0QakxKLngh6lBP1DDCY0jGnjh6xA*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C13d87711a64c4d5a186408d7e9164a3c*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637234154276913183&sdata=QSMcC9MD*2BaCCgQnnoNCxe4xqFKvFEu81i4GwhAfZwEs*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSolJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!Mih3wA!VMC7Q42-ZCLzlrlcxDalTU1dfGjI2uL5la5B1b-uJBs0lJmYIEwYo2Mjvs8OHpVWJq6pCA$>, MCA article 2016 
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Coronavirus-pandemic.pdf__;!!Mih3wA!VwBsj00MBi6ONGWDCcyeSQZliSKY_2S7PNTX-m0RU_-7tWJ9eneRQ6BIQG50Of-wAQG8bw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.ethicalpolitics.org*2Fablunden*2Fpdfs*2FCoronavirus-pandemic.pdf__*3B!!Mih3wA!S8ALk6GlG2xHhKD5PZffsZwZSDgRm3dCjkxcBsYpsG0QakxKLngh6lBP1DDCY0iFrpl65A*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C13d87711a64c4d5a186408d7e9164a3c*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637234154276923178&sdata=DTOj2Akqw9YK3oaKKoS3rDy5REPwdCsMx0SMyG5z83Y*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!VMC7Q42-ZCLzlrlcxDalTU1dfGjI2uL5la5B1b-uJBs0lJmYIEwYo2Mjvs8OHpWUL5l0GA$>
> Andy
>  
> Andy Blunden
> Hegel for Social Movements <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fbrill.com*2Fview*2Ftitle*2F54574__*3B!!Mih3wA!S8ALk6GlG2xHhKD5PZffsZwZSDgRm3dCjkxcBsYpsG0QakxKLngh6lBP1DDCY0gisOQgKQ*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C13d87711a64c4d5a186408d7e9164a3c*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637234154276923178&sdata=8QFkTyVJ7t6xKEcWSMIhFD5pcgleiwGHQ1sGG*2FsMxMA*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!Mih3wA!VMC7Q42-ZCLzlrlcxDalTU1dfGjI2uL5la5B1b-uJBs0lJmYIEwYo2Mjvs8OHpVQ2V1c_g$>
> Home Page <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.ethicalpolitics.org*2Fablunden*2Findex.htm__*3B!!Mih3wA!S8ALk6GlG2xHhKD5PZffsZwZSDgRm3dCjkxcBsYpsG0QakxKLngh6lBP1DDCY0g96FIVQA*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C13d87711a64c4d5a186408d7e9164a3c*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637234154276933170&sdata=7NAgGsxqfAWVYS5*2F*2B9xWOiNvok5vuURW6n85vTJmSaQ*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!Mih3wA!VMC7Q42-ZCLzlrlcxDalTU1dfGjI2uL5la5B1b-uJBs0lJmYIEwYo2Mjvs8OHpUqCFA6ag$>
> On 25/04/2020 4:01 am, Greg Thompson wrote:
> I'm wondering about Andy's suggestion that covid-19 is a (or maybe "is creating a"?) world perezhivanie. That seems a really rich suggestion but I'm not sure how many of us on the list really understand what he means by this.
>  
> Andy tends to just tell me to go read more and so I'm wondering if someone else might be willing to take a stab at explaining what he might mean.
>  
> Also, as a critical intervention, I am wondering whether covid-19 is the "same" for everyone. We have folks in the U.S. who think it is basically just a typical flu that has been turned into a political tool to attack the current president. Or does that not matter for perezhivanie?
>  
> (and just to be clear, my question is not whether or not this is true or right or beautiful to think this way; my question is whether or not this is how people are actually experiencing the world since I assume that this is what perezhivanie is supposed to be "getting at". Or am I misunderstanding perezhivanie?)
>  
> So is there really a shared perezhivanie here?
> (Is The Problem of Age the place to look for answers?)
>  
> But if no one wants to take this up (perhaps too much ink has been spilt over perezhivanie?), that's fine too.
>  
> Cheers,
> greg
>  
>  
> -- 
> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> Assistant Professor
> Department of Anthropology
> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> Brigham Young University
> Provo, UT 84602
> WEBSITE: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://anthropology.byu.edu/greg-thompson__;!!Mih3wA!VwBsj00MBi6ONGWDCcyeSQZliSKY_2S7PNTX-m0RU_-7tWJ9eneRQ6BIQG50Of-itJGLcg$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fanthropology.byu.edu*2Fgreg-thompson__*3B!!Mih3wA!WN8l_yYMTbBnmCBcPiLWU5hQYwPZIdGtHFRjEQb6reqIHexrpd3i0uUYMaQe4C4*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C13d87711a64c4d5a186408d7e9164a3c*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637234154276933170&sdata=EobYO4PePrVBoi31Ny*2FGILPiRLtaFedwDlj9uuJvzMI*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!Mih3wA!VMC7Q42-ZCLzlrlcxDalTU1dfGjI2uL5la5B1b-uJBs0lJmYIEwYo2Mjvs8OHpXY6dRGiw$> 
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson__;!!Mih3wA!VwBsj00MBi6ONGWDCcyeSQZliSKY_2S7PNTX-m0RU_-7tWJ9eneRQ6BIQG50Of9WPL2R7g$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__http*3A*2Fbyu.academia.edu*2FGregoryThompson__*3B!!Mih3wA!WN8l_yYMTbBnmCBcPiLWU5hQYwPZIdGtHFRjEQb6reqIHexrpd3i0uUYNZy2lRg*24&data=02*7C01*7Cdkirsh*40lsu.edu*7C13d87711a64c4d5a186408d7e9164a3c*7C2d4dad3f50ae47d983a09ae2b1f466f8*7C0*7C0*7C637234154276943163&sdata=mkbS8fib0Ix7c1x8mKscH0zNyJRb39Pl89dFqmkpP*2FY*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!Mih3wA!VMC7Q42-ZCLzlrlcxDalTU1dfGjI2uL5la5B1b-uJBs0lJmYIEwYo2Mjvs8OHpUlTVlJGQ$>
> <Executive Summary 15 APRIL 2020 FINAL[1].docx>
>  

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