[Xmca-l] Re: Saussure vs Peirce

Mon Mar 18 09:30:51 PDT 2019

 Martin,
This sounds very well. And I have to say I've been reading your thick (400+) book and that I should continue to read it to the end but *one thing* : as we've also had it before when you first talked about "What is science?" , sent the separate draft (Now read and pinned to the book to make it just thicker) , yes , one thing : "To define a word solely as a sign for a concept seem to me to abstract it from its conversational, that's to say , **real world, context. A word *can* be a sign for a concept, but in practice it will also be a reference to a **real or imagined?? **concrete entity." 
1. Concrete entity in a REAL world. So far I've spotted and marked just two cases in your book where "real" means "material" as we intend to mean "corporeal". Last time I understood you excepted the Natural World while you tried to give independence to the Qual Science or Research as having the REAL ENTITIES AND BODIES etc. By "implicit ontology" you meant , I think , derived existence. What is your take on the interactions between the independent  existences (yet cognizable in themselves#Kant) and derived existences (tied to the existence of a Mind). Taking a science as an instance , how you define its ontology and epistemology?
2. Also here I would like to inquire about the existence of a "concrete entity" in an imagined world if I'm not mistaken.
And I seek permission to draw Andy's attention to the fact that concepts find their ways to words not words in a reverse direction to concepts. Any concept could be or is a word but not that ANY word could necessarily be a concept. 
Haydi   
    On Monday, March 18, 2019, 6:02:14 PM GMT+3:30, Martin Packer <mpacker@cantab.net> wrote:  

 Yes, it is indeed a trivial example. And yes, I agree that one needs all the utterances in a conversation to understand it. And equally, one needs all the conversation to understand a single utterance. More importantly, so do the speakers. But certainly an utterance can be comprised of a single word (Well; Rubbish; Eureka; or anything else), or even silence. And this implies that one needs all the conversation to understand a single word. To define a word solely as a sign for a concept seem to me to abstract it from its conversational, that's to say real world, context. A word *can* be a sign for a concept, but in practice it will also be a reference to a real or imagined concrete entity. To the extent that a science is a mediator, a tool, and not an abstract system it seems to me important to keep focus on how words are used in ongoing processes of conceptualization.
Martin

On Mar 17, 2019, at 7:27 PM, Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:

Martin, I get the point, but any complex process is made up of units, many of them.  That's the point of using analysis by units. The excerpt you give is a trivial one. In general you need all the numerous utterances in a conversation to understand an extended interaction. It is like Engestrom who thinks when two activities interact, we have to have a new "fourth  generation" unit, i.e., two activity systems interacting. But that is only because he took the activity system as a system not a unit in the first place.

Andy

   Andy Blunden
 http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm  On 18/03/2019 9:14 am, Martin Packer wrote:

 Seems to me, David, that the notion that the basic unit is the pair is precisely what helps us understand an exchange such as: 
  A. How are you? B. Fine, thanks, and you? A. XXX 
  One pair is constituted by “How are you” and “Fine, thanks,” while “and you?” is the first part of a projected second pair. This is why one might have the intuition that speaker B is doing more than one thing (though I’d suggest 2, not 3), and that something more is expected from speaker A.  
  Martin 

 On Mar 17, 2019, at 4:17 PM, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com> wrote: 
  Well, Bakhtin is full of precisely the kind of sloppiness that Andy is deploring, Helena. So for example Bakhtin says that a whole novel can be considered as an utterance. You take down the book and open it. The novelist has something to say to you. He says it. And then you close the book and you put it back on the shelf. 
  That's all very well, and it's very useful as a way of showing that literature is not some "state within a state": it is also made of language stuff, by people who have a historical existence and not just an afterlife. But it doesn't help Andy (or me, or my wife who studies these things full time) distinguish sub-units within the novel which will help us understand how novels are structured, how this structure has changed with their function, and how the very functions have changed as literature has evolved. And these WERE the problems which Bakhtin set himself  (e.g. in "Novel and Epic" and elsewhere). 
  We see the same problem from the other end (micro-rather than macroscopic) with the minimal pair (originally, in the work of Sacks, "adjacency pair"). It's all very well and it's very useful as a way of understanding how conversations get structured as they go along, how people know when its their turn to talk and how they know when the rules have been broken. But it doesn't help us to understand, for example, why we all feel that when you say "How are you?" and somebody says "Fine, thanks, and you?" there seem to be three utterances in the second pair part, and the exchange as a whole doesn't seem finished, even though if we are using turns as the element (pair part) of the minimal pair, it really should be. 
  Craig Brandist remarks that Bakhtin uses the term "dialogue" in so many different ways that he has rendered it meaningless. I think the same thing is true of the way he uses "utterance". 

  David Kellogg
            Sangmyung University 
  New Article;  
   David Kellogg (2019) THE STORYTELLER’S TALE: VYGOTSKY’S ‘VRASHCHIVANIYA’, THE ZONE OF PROXIMAL DEVELOPMENT AND ‘INGROWING’ IN THE WEEKEND STORIES OF KOREAN CHILDREN, British Journal of Educational Studies, DOI: 10.1080/00071005.2019.1569200                                  
  Some e-prints available at: 
  https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/GSS2cTAVAz2jaRdPIkvj/full?target=10.1080/00071005.2019.1569200 

  On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 1:47 AM Helena Worthen <helenaworthen@gmail.com> wrote:

 I find it useful to think of an utterance as bounded on two ends: on one, by the utterance to which it responds, on the other, by the utterance that responds to it. Thus you can discern utterances within utterances. Minimally, a two -part exchange, as Martin says; maximally, a whole stream of briefer utterances bounded by their prompt and response.   
     Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com 

 On Mar 17, 2019, at 9:32 AM, Martin Packer <mpacker@cantab.net> wrote: 
   According to conversation analysts, the minimal unit in conversation is the adjacency pair: a two-part exchange in which the second utterance is functionally dependent on the first.  Question-answer; greeting-greeting; request-reply, and so on. An utterance, then, is both a turn and a move within a conversation.  An utterance is *not* “complete in itself” - it is a component in a larger organization: at least a pair, and usually a much longer sequence. 
     Martin 

 On Mar 16, 2019, at 3:11 AM, Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote: 

I would  have appreciated a definition of some kind of what the writer actually means by "utterance." In absence of that "the word, as a  compressed version of the utterance" is nonsense, or at least a step backwards because it obliterates a concept. Otherwise, I wouldn't mind saying that the two are together the micro- and macro-units of dialogue (or something having that meaning). The same as Leontyev has two  units of activity: action and activity, and Marx has two units of political economy: commodity and capital. To theorise a complex process you always need two units. 

The rest of what you have cited reminds me of what Constantin Stanislavskii said about the units of an actor's performance:

https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/seminars/stanislavskii.pdf

Andy

   Andy Blunden
 http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm  On 16/03/2019 5:42 pm, Arturo Escandon wrote:

  Thanks for that conceptual jewel, mate.   
  Let me bring here Akhutina to further show their complementariness: 
  The minimal holistic unit of conversation is the utterance. An utterance, unlike a sentence, is complete in itself. The  utterance always carries within it the marks and features of who is speaking to whom, for what reason and in what situation; it is  polyphonic. An utterance develops from a motivation, “a volitional objective” and progresses through inner speech to  external speech. The prime mover of the semantic progression (from the inner word that is comprehensible to me alone to the external speech that he, the listener, will understand) is the comparison of my subjective, evanescent sense, which I attribute  to the given word, and its objective (constant for both me and my listener) meaning.Thus, the major building material for speech production is the living two-voice word. But polyphony is a feature of the utterance as expressed in the word; the word carrying personal sense is  an abbreviation of the utterance. Thus, the utterance and the word, as a compressed version of the utterance, are the units of speech acts, communication, and consciousness. 
  Best 
  Arturo 

    -- 
 Sent from Gmail Mobile 

  Martin 
  "I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with the feeling that this also applies to myself” (Malinowski, 1930) 

Martin
"I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with the feeling that this also applies to myself” (Malinowski, 1930)

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