[Xmca-l] Re: Do we find Inequalities in wild life system?

Wed Jan 30 04:48:17 PST 2019

Hi,
I give you few cases that anyone might have observed while viewing
documentary on Discovery, Animal Planet, National Geographic and other like
channels.

*Case 1* Generally lions make their living in a group. It is observed that
lioness takes active part in the hunting and preying a kill. There are many
cases (most of the cases) where total efforts, toll and trouble are taken
by one or more lioness to kill a prey. But as soon as the leader of the
group approaches there, all the lioness and young cubs have to leave the
carcass and the lion eats making  full stomach without care of others
share. Does this act amount to an inequality?

*Case 2 *A female Cheetah with her two or three cubs preys a deer with her
hard effort and unfortunately a hyena spots her. The hyena rushes to the
place and the hungry Cheetah had to abandon the carcass and it is grabbed
by the hyenas. Does this act amount to an inequality?

*Case 3 *I recall one documentary. A group of African wild dogs were
inhabiting at one place. There were two females who gave birth to few
puppies. One female was young and second one was elder then the first one
and she was cheeky as well as experienced leader. She grabbed all the
puppies of the young female dog and nourished them with her own, but she
never allow the original young mother near to her puppies. This continued
for many days. Events and occasions in the documentary showed the
measurable condition of the young mother without her kids/puppies was
searching single occasion or opportunity to feed her own kids if the older
female remains inadvertent or remiss. Unfortunately she never got such
opportunity and her milk dried out. Does this act amount to an inequality?
There are innumerable cases where powerful member of the group does not
permit others access to the female to mate with other males of the same
group. The inferior or the male who are unable to fight with the leader one
has to frequently express a gesture of his body language accepting all the
superiority of the leader male. Does this act amount to an inequality?
When nature itself has not design two animals equal, and two animals of the
same specie are different in many ways then it seems that claim for
equality is against the natural law even in human society.
Regards,
Harshad Dave

On Wed, 30 Jan 2019 6:02 PM Annalie Pistorius <annalie.pistorius@smu.ac.za
wrote:

> Yes it seems that all states and states of minds ultimately become
> oppressive, or narrow-minded – we are born into that narrowness/states
> (they pre-existed before us) and some of us then rebel against that (what
> we come to know and experience about it) and create other intersubjective
> norms; but some others don’t know about that neither do they participate in
> that; somewhere then a leader is claiming to take care of promises but does
> something else.
>
> Objective things cannot be described, their descriptions are
> inter-subjective (which includes the subjective, if that is possible, I
> don’t think it is possible to think on your own to form a subjective
> opinion really because it is done against a norm). The map is not the
> territory (Bateson). We don’t see the territory, we see the map and make up
> different maps of the same territory; thus they are all limited and as
> narrow as our intersubjective creations.
>
>
>
> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:
> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] *On Behalf Of *Andy Blunden
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 30, 2019 10:15 AM
> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Do we find Inequalities in wild life system?
>
>
>
> Where there is a state there is most likely inequality and injustice,
> Annalie.
> Where do you see inequality and injustice as arising from?
>
> andy
> ------------------------------
>
> Andy Blunden
> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>
> On 30/01/2019 7:03 pm, Annalie Pistorius wrote:
>
> What about the inter-cultural historical?
>
> Annalie
>
> (Im a clinical psychologist from South Africa)
>
>
>
> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [
> mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>] *On
> Behalf Of *Martin Packer
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 29, 2019 5:18 PM
> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Do we find Inequalities in wild life system?
>
>
>
> Well, I was going to add that culture would be generally considered an
> intersubjective phenomenon, rather than subjective or objective. So it
> could be said that what this discussion group is about — the C in XMCA — is
> intersubjectivity.
>
>
>
> Should intersubjectivity be transcended? I think, Andy, that you may be
> reading the word as some kind of merging or sharing of subjectivities.
> Which is indeed how the word has been used here not long ago. But Charles
> Taylor, for example, defined intersubjectivity as meanings and norms that
> exist in practices, not in individuals' minds. The materiality of culture —
> material artefacts — seems to me to be a very good example of this.
>
>
>
> Martin
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jan 29, 2019, at 9:51 AM, Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> It's my view, Martin, that in making actions, including intersubjective
> actions, *essentially* artefact-mediated, Vygotsky transcended
> "intersubjectivity." His citing of Marx citing Hegel on the "cunning of
> reason" is no accident.
>
> Hegel has what he calls (in typical Hegel style) the "syllogism of
> action." This is the culminating concept of the Logic making the transition
> to the Absolute Idea and Nature. Hegel points out, and Marx picks up on
> this, that this means that every action is mediated by material culture.
> Hegel says "the plough is more honourable than anything produced by its
> means." For Marx, this is about the importance of ownership of the means of
> production. For Vygotsky, it is what makes Cultural Psychology what it is.
>
> Emphasising the culture in the middle in no way minimises the constructive
> role of language use, but it means that the language itself plays, maybe.
> the more "honourable" role. :)
>
> andy
> ------------------------------
>
> Andy Blunden
> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>
> On 30/01/2019 1:41 am, Martin Packer wrote:
>
> There was a general recognition in the social sciences (including
> philosophy) some time ago that it is crucial to recognize the existence and
> importance of “intersubjective” phenomena.  Language, for example, is not
> subjective, it is intersubjective. As Andy notes, subjectivity and even
> objectivity (think Latour’s analysis of science in Laboratory Life) arise
> from and are dependent upon intersubjective phenomena.
>
>
>
> Martin
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jan 29, 2019, at 12:15 AM, Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> When you get the electric chair for murdering someone that is not a
> linguistic construct.
>
> andy
> ------------------------------
>
> Andy Blunden
> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>
> On 29/01/2019 2:49 pm, Adam Poole (16517826) wrote:
>
> Perhaps it may be more appropriate to use the term 'quasi-objective
> form', as the medium through which concepts like inequality and
> injustice are made objective, language, is itself inherently subjective.
> For example, justice can be given objective form in law, but the law itself
> is comprised of language, customs, traditions, beliefs, etc. The
> manifestation of an objective form is not universal, but will differ
> depending on cultural context. Hence quasi-objective. Concepts like
> inequality are given objective form, but it doesn't mean that they are
> objective in nature, due to the mediating role of language.
>
>
>
> Adam
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of Andy Blunden
> <andyb@marxists.org> <andyb@marxists.org>
> *Sent:* 29 January 2019 08:16:35
> *To:* xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Do we find Inequalities in wild life system?
>
>
>
> Mmm, "subjective" is a polysemous word, Huw. It is not a matter of
> precision but of relativity. "Inequality" is a famously contested concept,
> as is "injustice," but its contestation is necessarily in a social context
> and with social content. Justice and equality are given objective form in
> law and social policy in definite, really-existing states or organisations
> challenging for state power, not the opinion of individuals.
>
> andy
> ------------------------------
>
> Andy Blunden
> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>
> On 29/01/2019 1:50 am, Huw Lloyd wrote:
>
> It isn't "subjective", Andy. Rather it is limited to a certain construal.
> One can be quite precise and objective about that construal.
>
>
>
> Huw
>
>
>
> On Mon, 28 Jan 2019 at 14:14, Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:
>
> I can't agree that with your suggestion, Huw, that inequality (in the
> meaning with which Harshad used it) is something subjective, in the eye of
> the beholder. Such a view would be very pernicious politically. The fact is
> that states have emerged and developed over many centuries so as to makes
> objective certain concepts of justice, among which are various qualified
> and nuances notions of equality. This is not  figment of my imagination.
>
> andy
> ------------------------------
>
> Andy Blunden
> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>
> On 29/01/2019 12:59 am, Huw Lloyd wrote:
>
> We find "wild life" systems that are imbalanced and subject to radical
> changes.
>
>
>
> Inequality is a perceptual/cognitive construct and predicated on an
> ontological scope. We find the condition of inequality (or comparison) in
> our thinking and behaviour. Every living thing "finds" inequalities. We do
> not find inequality, we find the awareness of inequality.
>
>
>
> On Mon, 28 Jan 2019 at 08:17, James Ma <jamesma320@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Should you find inequality within a wildlife system, that must be a
> political, ideological precept!
>
>
>
> James
>
>
>
> On Mon, 28 Jan 2019 at 07:56, James Ma <jamesma320@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Not only is it meaningless but also preposterous. To maintain that all
> members of the same species are equal, as Anne Moir and David Jessel put
> it, is to "build a society based on a biological and scientific lie".
>
> James
>
> PS: I'm apolitical - anything political, ideological just doesn't speak to
> me!
>
> *_______________________________________________________*
>
> *James Ma  **Independent Scholar **https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa
> <https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa>   *
>
>
>
> On Mon, 28 Jan 2019 at 05:27, Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:
>
> Harshad,
>
> "Inequality" is a meaningless concept when referred to Nature. Likewise
> "Injustice."
>
> Justice and equality are relevant only to the extent that the subjects are
> living in an 'artificial' world, out of Nature. Natural disasters and the
> plenitude of Nature have these dimensions only to the extent they are
> imposed on or made available to different classes of people by the social
> system.
>
> Hope that helps.
>
> Andy
> ------------------------------
>
> Andy Blunden
> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>
> On 28/01/2019 4:00 pm, Harshad Dave wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> I am working on one article. I want to know your views on following query.
>
>
>
> "Do we find Inequalities exists in wild life system?"
>
>
>
> Your views will help me in my work.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> [image: Image removed by sender.]
>
>
>
> Harshad Dave
>
> Email: hhdave15@gmail.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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> Martin
>
>
>
> *"I may say that whenever I meet Mrs. Seligman or Dr. Lowie or discuss
> matters with Radcliffe-Brown or Kroeber, I become at once aware that my
> partner does not understand anything in the matter, and I end usually with
> the feeling that this also applies to myself” (Malinowski, 1930)*
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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