[Xmca-l] Re: Passions, (Projects?) and Interests
Andy Blunden
andyb@marxists.org
Sat Jan 12 16:42:54 PST 2019
Well Mike, there can be different formulations, but there
has to be some sense of a subject-object; I call it a
project, Leontyev called it an activity, Yrjo calls it a
system of activity, and Hegel called it a formation of
consciousness.
Hegel formulates this as a triadic relationship between the
universal, the individual and the particular. What is absent
from Leontyev is the particular interest. In my view, this
2-sidedness instead of 3-sidedness derives from the
condition of discourse in the USSR, but that is open for
discussion.
When his grandson addressed us in Sydney a couple of years
ago, he drew a big diagram on the whiteboard with a line
down the middle, and subjective factors (the individual) and
the left and objective factors (the state) on the right.
When I questioned him about the lack of particular interest
and the resulting dichotomy, he really didn't get what I was
talking about (I guess that's something that is not new to
me) and at a stretch he could only accept that there would
be regional differences between different objectives. Not a
lot of room for class struggle, feminism, anti-racism or
whatever in there.
I don't know much about Rubenshtein or anything about
Brushlinsky, I admit, but nothing I have heard of them has
tended to persuade me away from a Marxist-Hegelian
perspective. German Idealism arose not in opposition to
materialism, but in opposition to subjective idealism.
Andy
------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Blunden
http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
On 13/01/2019 11:26 am, mike cole wrote:
> You have motivated to read the chapter, David. Thanks.
> Andy. I think what you are talking about is called, by
> some (Rubenshtein? Brushlinsky?, a subjective object.
> mike
>
> On Sat, Jan 12, 2019 at 3:45 PM Andy Blunden
> <andyb@marxists.org <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>> wrote:
>
> As I see it, the problems Leontyev has with "need"
> derive from his taking the object of activity to be
> "simply objective." By this I mean that not only is
> the object external, and in that sense objective (and
> can only be fulfilled by processes which exist in the
> wider social and material world, and not just a
> psychic process), but it is not problematic - it is
> determined by the community as a whole (in turn taken
> as an unproblematic whole) and if an individual is
> pursuing some other conception of the object then they
> are mistaken. There is nothing mediate between the
> individual and the community as a whole (i.e., the
> state - the individual does not belong to an interest
> group, for example). The individual's need is
> determined by psychic reflection on the object of
> activity (and in that sense both subjective and
> objective) but it gets slippery only when you enquire
> about the object of activity, which ought to provide
> for the material needs of the individual in order to
> sustain the society, but of course it is not so simple!
>
> Andy
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Andy Blunden
> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
> On 13/01/2019 4:40 am, mike cole wrote:
>> I know this may sound obtuse, Huw. But the concept of
>> need in both LSV and ANL has always
>> seemed very slippery to me. Presumably a long term
>> need is to obtain enough food, shelter......
>> but that involves social transactions that are
>> culturally mediated. Reproduction is a species need
>> in one way and
>> I guess my felt need to check out how Arsenal is
>> faring is short term. But its long term equivalent?
>> Seems more than epistemic/ontological. I am not sure
>> where sexual interests fit in.
>>
>> Can this be explained in a manner that this
>> struggling person can understand?
>>
>> mike
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 12, 2019 at 8:49 AM Huw Lloyd
>> <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com
>> <mailto:huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Vygotsky likens them to temporary needs.
>>
>> Huw
>>
>> On Sat, 12 Jan 2019 at 00:36, mike cole
>> <mcole@ucsd.edu <mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu>> wrote:
>>
>> Ah, so interests are the affective ingredient
>> that accompanies the point of.view? A
>> subjtive object?
>> Mike
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 3:58 PM James Ma
>> <jamesma320@gmail.com
>> <mailto:jamesma320@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Interests have much to do with
>> intentionality - and there is always a
>> subjective angle from which the object
>> (interests) is viewed - I don't recall
>> coming across Vygotsky alluding to this.
>> To illustrate my point, I use the term
>> "evidentiality" (which in linguistics
>> refers to statements being explicitly
>> marked to show the source of the
>> speaker's information, e.g. "I witnessed
>> this"). It goes without saying that
>> privileged access bears on one's interest
>> (a state of being interested, or an act
>> of taking an interest, in something).
>> Thus, one person's interest is always a
>> "secondary evidential" from another
>> person's viewpoint, in which case another
>> person has to make inference through
>> sense perception, mediated
>> by contextual factors (e.g.
>> interpersonal, ideational and textual).
>>
>> James
>>
>> */_______________________________________________________/*
>>
>> /*James Ma *Independent Scholar
>> //https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa
>> /
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 11 Jan 2019 at 16:48, mike cole
>> <mcole@ucsd.edu <mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> So interests are curiosity, Huw?
>> Didn’t “Psychology of Art” have
>> something to to do with Emotions, David?
>> 10 Volumes (!) of LSV! Wow.
>> Mike
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 5:58 AM Huw
>> Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com
>> <mailto:huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> For Vygotsky, interests are
>> intentions. Although he
>> recognises that Lewin's
>> structural theory is inadequate
>> with regard to discerning the
>> essence of interests, his own
>> writings in that chapter focus
>> upon developmental patterns of
>> interests, and he does not get
>> around to being explicit about
>> what is behind interest -- what
>> is really driving it. To a
>> certain extent this is answered
>> with the social situation of
>> development, but unless one reads
>> between the lines there is a
>> great deal of vagueness, such as
>> with reference to psychological
>> functions.
>>
>> I have a rather large theoretical
>> paper I am completing on this to
>> compliment some empirical work.
>> What I state is that it is
>> epistemology (and ontology) that
>> is the interest behind interest.
>>
>> Best,
>> Huw
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 11 Jan 2019 at 12:08,
>> Moises Esteban-Guitart
>> <moises.esteban@udg.edu
>> <mailto:moises.esteban@udg.edu>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> That's an interesting
>> question that I asked myself
>> when I read EDUCATIONAL
>> PSYCHOLOGY by Vygotsky "from
>> one interest of the child’s
>> to a new interest
>> —that is the rule” (Vygotsky,
>> 1926/1997a, p. 86). My
>> conclusion was that
>> it depends on the
>> biographical moment (see pp.
>> 393 to 396 document
>> attached). By the way, in his
>> "Educational Psychology" he
>> wrote on sex too
>> ("Education on the sex
>> instinct", pp. 71-77),
>> however I didn't explore
>> this.
>> m
>>
>> > David,
>> >
>> > I would imagine the
>> reference to interest relates
>> to the STUDENTS'
>> > interest: meaning that
>> whatever way it is approached
>> it needs to be
>> > introduced from and in
>> relation to the students' current
>> >
>> knowledge/interest/developmental
>> stage as opposed to being
>> imposed in a
>> > decontextualised way.
>> >
>> > At least I think that's
>> what's going on here...
>> >
>> > Julie
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> Sorry, Rob. I mean fifteen
>> hours a year. The government
>> has itinerant
>> >> specialists who lecture
>> from school to school. There
>> is even a bus for
>> >> visiting the provinces.
>> >>
>> >> In contrast, Vygotsky says:
>> >>
>> >> a) No class with ONLY sex
>> education--since anatomical,
>> sexual, and
>> >> sociocultural maturation
>> do not coincide in modern
>> humans, sex education
>> >> is
>> >> not a science of a natural
>> whole, where the object of
>> study is given to
>> >> us.
>> >>
>> >> b) No classes WITHOUT sex
>> education--since sex
>> education is simply
>> >> learning
>> >> how to be with people who
>> may be of sexual interest,
>> all classes must
>> >> have
>> >> some form of sexual
>> "enlightenment".
>> >>
>> >> c) No sex education
>> without INTEREST. But what,
>> exactly, is interest?
>> >>
>> >> David Kellogg
>> >> Sangmyung University
>> >>
>> >> New in *Language and
>> Literature*, co-authored with
>> Fang Li:
>> >> Mountains in labour:
>> Eliot’s ‘Atrocities’ and Woolf’s
>> >> alternatives
>> >> Show all authors
>> >>
>> >>
>> https://doi.org/10.1177/0963947018805660
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at
>> 5:40 PM robsub@ariadne.org.uk
>> <mailto:robsub@ariadne.org.uk>
>> >> <robsub@ariadne.org.uk
>> <mailto:robsub@ariadne.org.uk>>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Fifteen hours a week???
>> >>>
>> >>> I hope it's not all
>> practicals - the teachers
>> would be exhausted.
>> >>>
>> >>> In the UK nowadays the
>> very inadequate thing we do
>> in schools is called
>> >>> Sex and Relationship
>> Education. The "and
>> Relationship" bit was tacked
>> >>> on
>> >>> some time in the 90s or
>> maybe early 2000s, if I
>> recall rightly. They
>> >>> missed
>> >>> a trick there - they
>> should have put it the other
>> way round
>> >>> "Relationship
>> >>> and Sex Education". A
>> very large lump of the
>> population go into a
>> >>> tabloid
>> >>> induced panic as soon as
>> they hear the word "sex",
>> especially when
>> >>> related
>> >>> to children, and then
>> fail to hear the "and
>> relationship" it.
>> >>>
>> >>> Rob
>> >>>
>> >>> On 11/01/2019 07:14,
>> David Kellogg wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Last July in Geneva, I
>> got into a bit of a tiff with
>> my hosts over
>> >>> whether
>> >>> or not Vygotsky had a
>> theory of emotion. The
>> commonplace position,
>> >>> taken
>> >>> by
>> >>> almost all high
>> Vygotskyans including my
>> francophone friends, is that
>> >>> Vygotsky spent too much
>> of his life developing a
>> theory of thinking and
>> >>> intellect, complexes and
>> concept formation, and when
>> he turned his
>> >>> attention to the lower
>> and higher emotions, that
>> dark side of the moon,
>> >>> it
>> >>> was too late. He worked
>> out a kind of prolegomena, in
>> the form of
>> >>> "Teaching
>> >>> on the Emotions" (or
>> "Study of the Emotions" or
>> perhaps "The Doctrine
>> >>> of
>> >>> the Emotions"--you can
>> read what he did in Volume 6
>> of the Collected
>> >>> Works). And the rest was
>> silence.
>> >>>
>> >>> Here in Korea we are
>> bringing out our tenth volume
>> of Vygotsky's works
>> >>> (see attached cover, with
>> blurbs from Renee Van der
>> Veer and Irina
>> >>> Leopoldoff-Martin). It's
>> all about sex education,
>> which is a very
>> >>> important
>> >>> topic here in Korea,
>> because we have fifteen hours
>> of sex education a
>> >>> week
>> >>> mandated by the
>> government, but the ministry
>> of education has more or
>> >>> less
>> >>> withdrawn the
>> downloadable materials for
>> this, not for the usual
>> >>> reasons
>> >>> but instead because of
>> criticism from Human Rights
>> Watch (it is
>> >>> terribly
>> >>> sexist, homophobic, and
>> just plain ignorant).
>> >>>
>> >>> Vygosky's view is that
>> sex education (which he calls
>> "sexual
>> >>> enlightenment") has to be
>> integrated into ALL subjects
>> (so for example
>> >>> the
>> >>> test of a good sex
>> enlightenment programme would
>> be one that ensures
>> >>> equal
>> >>> participation of boys and
>> girls in math and physics),
>> it has to start
>> >>> as
>> >>> soon as preschoolers
>> enter primary school, and it
>> has to be
>> >>> INTERESTING.
>> >>> In
>> >>> other words, instead of
>> the "sex education without
>> sex" programme we
>> >>> have
>> >>> here in South Korea, we
>> need non-sex education...but
>> with a good deal
>> >>> of
>> >>> sex.
>> >>>
>> >>> All of which has got me
>> thinking about the problem my
>> Geneva friends
>> >>> set
>> >>> before me. I think that
>> Vygotsky really DOES have a
>> theory that unites
>> >>> passions and interests.
>> It's like that book by
>> Hirschmann on how the
>> >>> unity
>> >>> of passion and interest
>> gave rise to capitalism, but
>> instead it is all
>> >>> about how passions,
>> shared projects, and
>> interests give rise to sexual
>> >>> love, and it is more or
>> less right before we would
>> expect to find it:
>> >>> in
>> >>> the Pedology of the
>> Adolescent, right before the
>> chapter on concept
>> >>> formation, which shows
>> how complexes (which are
>> categories for others)
>> >>> become concepts
>> (categories for themselves).
>> This is the chapter on
>> >>> interests, which explains
>> how passions (which are
>> sensations in
>> >>> themselves)
>> >>> become interests: that
>> is, emotions for themselves.
>> (There is already a
>> >>> passable translation of
>> this in Volume Five of the
>> CW). The only thing
>> >>> is
>> >>> there is a need for a
>> transitional form--a feeling
>> with others. Andy's
>> >>> idea
>> >>> of the Project?
>> >>>
>> >>> David Kellogg
>> >>> Sangmyung University
>> >>>
>> >>> New in *Language and
>> Literature*, co-authored with
>> Fang Li:
>> >>> Mountains in labour:
>> Eliot’s ‘Atrocities’ and Woolf’s
>> >>> alternatives
>> >>> Show all authors
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> https://doi.org/10.1177/0963947018805660
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > Dra. Julie Waddington
>> > Departament de Didàctiques
>> Específiques
>> > Facultat d'Educació i
>> Psicologia
>> > Universitat de Girona
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> Moisès Esteban Guitart
>> Dpt de psicologia
>> Director - Institut de
>> Recerca Educativa -
>> Facultat d'Educació i Psicologia
>> Universitat de Girona
>>
>> Grup de recerca "Cultura i
>> Educació" (GRC 2017SGR19)
>> https://culturaieducacio.cat
>>
>> Responsable a la Universitat
>> de Girona del Postgrau
>> Interuniversitari en
>> Psicologia de l'educació
>> MIPE-DIPE
>> http://mipe.psyed.edu.es/ca
>>
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