[Xmca-l] Re: Michael C. Corballis
Andy Blunden
andyb@marxists.org
Sat Oct 27 17:16:24 PDT 2018
Henry, various animals can refer to past and future events
and can also deceive. One could say that for non-humans
animals these capacities are only rudimentary, but
exaggerated dichotomous claims cannot be substantiated. Ever
seen a crow movie on youtube? When I overslept this morning
my cat Peek-a-Boo came and slapped me on the face.There's
future thinking and future gestures.
David, I didn't know about Corballis arguing that language
developed as tool use. That is certainly not my guess, just
that tool-production and word-use co-evolved. No the same
thing. And really can't we let Chomsky's theory just rest as
part of the history of science, like Freud's psychology?
Andy
------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Blunden
http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
On 28/10/2018 8:42 AM, David H Kirshner wrote:
>
> Andy and Henry,
>
>
>
> The capacity for displacement of our immediate reality in
> time and space would seem to be dependent on neural
> capacity, the size and organization of our brains. But the
> Andy and Corballis’ position that language evolved
> culturally as tool use, contradicts a more strongly
> innatist position that grammatical competence is hard-wired.
>
>
>
> Chomsky posited the innatist position in the mid-1950s at
> the start of the cognitive era based on the model of the
> serial digital computer. Noting the enormous complexity of
> grammar, Chomsky’s basic argument was that inductive
> learning of such a complex linguistic program was
> infeasible unless the basic structure of grammar was
> innately give (Universal Grammar). The UG hypothesis meant
> that learning the particular grammar of one’s native
> language just required setting some specialized switches
> in the pre-given grammar program.
>
>
>
> All of this was prior to the development of parallel
> distributed connectionist computer architectures that
> model learning as massive correlation of input and output
> elements rather than as induction of a rule-based program.
> I’m wondering if anyone knows how/if connectionism has
> impacted the debate over origins of language.
>
>
>
> David
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:*xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> *On Behalf Of *HENRY SHONERD
> *Sent:* Saturday, October 27, 2018 11:43 AM
> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Michael C. Corballis
>
>
>
> Andy,
>
> Thanks for your interest in language, if not in
> linguistics. I recall chatting, arguing in fact, with you
> about the origin of language in terms of moldality: oral
> or gestural. I have a close friend whose research focus
> has been in signed language. It is his sense that language
> probably developed through gesture as sign. Two of
> Corballis’ conjectures are of interest: 1) that oral
> language displaced gesture as the human form of
> communication and 2) that language allows us to
> “displace" in our communication, travel in time. (It also
> allows displacement in space, and to reference imaginary
> worlds, another form of displacement.) Animals, other than
> humans, can communicate, but, as far as we know, cannot
> displace in their communication. But why did gesture not
> become the dominant form of human communication? All
> signed languages displace. It’s probably fruitless to
> argue about which modality came first in human language.
> Maybe more interesting and important to me is the extent
> to which gesture is important in human communication
> today. (Linguists categorize the gestural aspects of
> language as paralanguage.) And why with spoken and written
> language we so often fail to communicate adequately, with
> one another and even with ourselves. Perhaps it is because
> the immediacy in time and space of gesture is
> short-circuited by displacement? We get caught up in our
> heads thinking, displaced in time and space from the here
> and now. I have a Vipassana meditation practice: I sit and
> focus on the breath. It’s that simple. I thereby do my
> best to be present in the here and now, to not displace.
> This is not easy, as anyone who meditates knows. But the
> payoff is becoming clearer and clearer to me: being
> present: Not pushing away that which is unpleasant, not
> grasping for that which is pleasant, and not deluding
> myself that living in a fantasy of lalaland can make me
> happy or able to live ethically in the world.
>
>
>
> It is the curse of humans that we can displace, but also a
> (the?) key to our domination of the planet. A mixed bag,
> so to spea:. Powerful but alienated as hell.
>
>
>
> Henry
>
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 26, 2018, at 5:52 PM, Andy Blunden
> <andyb@marxists.org <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>> wrote:
>
>
>
> That's fine, Peter. On reflection I should have
> omitted mention of "linguistics" because it was not
> actually that linguistics I was interested in.
>
> I was driving yesterday, and I heard a radio talk
> https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/bigideas/where-did-language-come-from/10404342
>
>
> This is a topic which has long interested me. The
> speaker (which turned out to be Corballis) did a great
> job on Chomsky and several other theories that I was
> unaware of, I didn't get to hear his punch line, but
> he seemed really sound. So when I got home I did some
> internet searches and found that he did support my
> prejudice, that is, that tool-use and speech
> co-evolved in the origins of our species.
>
> I had made this claim in my article "Tool and Sign in
> Vygotsky's Development"
> https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Tool%20and%20Sign%20in%20Vygotskys%20Development.pdf
>
> but never had any basis for making the claim and this
> was always preying on my conscience, so I was
> interested to know if Corballis was some crank making
> unfounded guesses, like me, or he was the real goods.
> I read stuff about his neuroscience research showing
> the interconnection between handling ancient tools and
> handling words, but this is so far out of my field
> (insofar as I have one at all), I couldn't rationally
> assess the idea.
>
> So! I am very pleased with the report you have given
> me. I have ordered his book "From Hand to Mouth – The
> Origins of Language" and look forward to its arrival
> in Australia, hopefully before Christmas!
>
> Andy
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Andy Blunden
> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>
> On 27/10/2018 3:18 AM, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] wrote:
>
> Andy,
>
>
>
> I'm familiar with his 1991 book entitled *The
> Lopsided Ape: Evolution of the Generative Mind*,
>
> and I found his perspective on the evolutionary
> developments of brain, mind, and language to
>
> be reasonable, coherent, and very compelling. When
> I read it (about 25 years ago), I was
>
> particularly focused on the evolutionary
> connections between handedness, left hemispheric
>
> dominance for language, and the evolution of the
> anatomical relations between the brain regions
>
> that control the fine motor movements of the thumb
> and those of the tongue.
>
>
>
> So when I saw your question, I pulled the book off
> the shelf and re-read the parts on the neural
>
> foundations of language and mental representation
> - and found them to be chock full of good
>
> and useful ideas! Alas, while I can attest that
> Corballis certainly has a sound working knowledge
>
> of the biological and neural structures of
> language, as well as the basic psychological
> functions that are sub-served by these structures,
> this seminal book doesn't really speak to his work
> as a linguist.
>
>
>
> In fact, the book lists him as affiliated with the
> Department of Psychology at the University of
> Aukland, and so I always assumed he was a
> psychologist. But if he is indeed a linguist, and
> if he has carried the quality and clarity of
> thought and understanding expressed in his older
> work on evolution of the human brain into his
> later life, I'd wager he's a pretty good linguist.
>
>
>
> May I ask what prompted your question?
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Peter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 3:13 AM, Andy Blunden
> <andyb@marxists.org <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>>
> wrote:
>
> Is anyone familiar with the work of Michael C.
> Corballis as a linguist? Is he any good?
>
> andy
>
>
>
> --
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Andy Blunden
> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ethicalpolitics.org_ablunden_index.htm&d=DwMCaQ&c=aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r=mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=6rABLbgQXNmFR3I1MRyXWnwkYlMV8UA9eNMBReMJ2G8&s=_MacMRb35H57uhad46QsFEcixR0ZeRymdVs7-klmN8U&e=>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
>
> Director,
>
> Office of Institutional Research
> <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
>
> Fordham University
>
> Thebaud Hall-202
>
> Bronx, NY 10458
>
>
>
> Phone: (718) 817-2243
>
> Fax: (718) 817-3817
>
> email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
> <mailto:pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu>
>
>
>
>
>
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