[Xmca-l] Re: language and music

Tue Nov 27 10:11:55 PST 2018

 Henry, thanks for the info on Derek Bickerton. One of the interesting
things is his conception of displacement as the hallmark of language,
whether iconic, indexical or symbolic. In the case of Chinese language, the
sounds are decontextualised or sublimated over time to become something
more integrated into the words themselves as ideographs. Some of
Bickerton's ideas are suggestive of the study of protolanguage as an *a
priori *process, involving scrupulous deduction. This reminds me of methods
used in diachronic linguistics, which I felt are relevant to CHAT just as
much as those used in synchronic linguistics.

Regarding "intermental" and "intramental", I can see your point. In fact I
don't take Vygotsky's "interpsychological" and "intrapsychological"
categories to be dichotomies or binary opposites. Whenever it comes to
their relationship, I tend to have a post-structuralism imagery present in
my mind, particularly related to a Derridean stance for the conception of
ideas (i.e. any idea is not entirely distinct from other ideas in terms of
the "thing itself"; rather, it entails a supplement of the other idea which
is already embedded in the self). Vygotsky's two categories are relational
(dialectical); they are somehow like a pair of mandarin ducks (see attached
image). I also like to think that each of these categories is both
"discourse-in-context" and "context-for-discourse" (here discourse is in
tune with James Gee's conception of discourse as a patchwork of actions,
interactions, thoughts, feelings etc). I recall Barbara Rogoff talking
about there being no boundary between the external and the internal or the
boundary being blurred (during her seminar in the Graduate School of
Education at Bristol in 2001 while I was doing my PhD).

James

On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 at 23:14, HENRY SHONERD <hshonerd@gmail.com> wrote:

> James,
> I think it was Derek Bickerton (
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Bickerton) who argued that “formal
> syntax” developed from stringing together turns in verbal interaction. The
> wiki on Bickerton I have linked is short and raises issues discussed in
> this subject line and in the subject line on Corballis. Bickerton brings me
> back to the circularity of discourse and the development of discourse
> competence. Usage-based grammar. Bickerton’s idea that complex grammar
> developed out of the pidgins of our ancestors is interesting. Do I see a
> chicken/egg problem that for Vygotsky, “…the intramental forms of semiotic
> mediation is better understood by examining the types of intermental
> processes”? I don’t know. Could one say that inner speech is the vehicle
> for turning discourse into grammar? Bickerton claimed a strong biological
> component to human language, though I don’t remember if he was a Chomskian.
> I hope this is coherent thinking in the context of our conversation. All
> that jazz.
> Henry
>
>
> On Nov 21, 2018, at 3:22 PM, James Ma <jamesma320@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Alfredo, I'd agree with Greg - intersubjectivity is relevant and pertinent
> here.
>
> As I see it, intersubjectivity transcends "outlines" or perhaps sublimates
> the "muddledness" and "unpredictability" of a conversation (as in Bateson's
> metalogue) into what Rommetveit termed the "draft of a contract". This is
> because shared understanding makes explicit and external what would
> otherwise remain implicit and internal. Rommetveit argues that private
> worlds can only be transcended up to a certain level and interlocutors need
> to agree upon the draft of a contract with which the communication can be
> initiated. In the spirit of Vygotsky, he uses a "pluralistic" and
> "social-cognitive" approach to human communication - and especially to the
> problem of linguistic mediation and regulation in interpsychological
> functioning, with reference to semantics, syntactics and pragmatics. For
> him, the intramental forms of semiotic mediation is better understood by
> examining the types of intermental processes.
>
> I think these intermental processes (just like intramental ones) can be
> boiled down or distilled to signs and symbols with which interlocutors are
> in harmony during a conversation or any other joint activities.
>
> James
>
>
> *________________________________________________*
>
> *James Ma  Independent Scholar **https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa
> <https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa>   *
>
>
>
> On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 at 08:09, Alfredo Jornet Gil <a.j.gil@ils.uio.no>
> wrote:
>
>> Henry's remarks about no directors and symphonic potential of
>> conversation reminded me of G. Bateson's metalogue "why do things have
>> outlines" (attached). Implicitly, it raises the question of units and
>> elements, of how a song, a dance, a poem, a conversation, to make sense,
>> they must have a recognizable outline, even in improvisation; they must
>> be wholes, or suggest wholes. That makes them "predictable". And yet, when
>> you are immersed in a conversation, the fact that you can
>> never exactly predict what comes next is the whole point that keep
>> us talking, dancing, drawing, etc!
>>
>>
>> Alfredo
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> on behalf of HENRY SHONERD <hshonerd@gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* 21 November 2018 06:22
>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: language and music
>>
>> I’d like to add to the call and response conversation that discourse,
>> this conversation itself, is staged. There are performers and and an
>> audience made up partly of performers themselves. How many are lurkers, as
>> I am usually? This conversation has no director, but there are leaders.
>> There is symphonic potential. And even gestural potential, making the chat
>> a dance. All on line.:)
>> Henry
>>
>>
>>
>> On Nov 20, 2018, at 9:05 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>>
>> For many years I used the work of Ellen Dissenyake to teach comm classes
>> about language/music/development. She is quite unusual in ways that might
>> find interest here.
>>
>> https://ellendissanayake.com/
>>
>> mike
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 17, 2018 at 2:16 PM James Ma <jamesma320@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Hello Simangele,
>>>
>>> In semiotic terms, whatever each of the participants has constructed
>>> internally is the signified, i.e. his or her understanding and
>>> interpretation. When it is vocalised (spoken out), it becomes the signifier
>>> to the listener. What's more, when the participants work together to
>>> compose a story impromptu, each of their signifiers turns into a new
>>> signified – a shared, newly-established understanding, woven into the
>>> fabric of meaning making.
>>>
>>> By the way, in Chinese language, words for singing and dancing have long
>>> been used inseparably. As I see it, they are semiotically indexed to, or
>>> adjusted to allow for, the feelings, emotions, actions and interactions of
>>> a consciousness who is experiencing the singing and dancing. Here are some
>>> idioms:
>>>
>>> 酣歌醉舞 - singing and dancing rapturously
>>>
>>> 村歌社舞 - dancing village and singing club
>>>
>>> 燕歌赵舞 - citizens of ancient Yan and Zhao good at singing and dancing,
>>> hence referring to wonderful songs and dances
>>>
>>> 舞榭歌楼 - a church or building set up for singing and dancing
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> James
>>>
>>> *________________________________________________*
>>>
>>> *James Ma  Independent Scholar **https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa
>>> <https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa>   *
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 at 19:08, Simangele Mayisela <
>>> simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Colleagues,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This conversation is getting even more interesting, not that I have an
>>>> informed answer for you Rob, I can only think of the National Anthems where
>>>> people stand still when singing, even then this is observed only in
>>>> international events.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Other occasions when people are likely not to move when singing when
>>>> there is death and the mood is sombre. Otherwise singing and rhythmic body
>>>> movement, called dance are a norm.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This then makes me  wonder what this means in terms of cognitive
>>>> functioning, in the light of Vygotsky’s developmental stages – of language
>>>> and thought. Would the body movement constitute the externalisation of the
>>>> thoughts contained in the music?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Helena – the video you are relating about reminds of the language
>>>> teaching or group therapy technique- where a group of learners (or
>>>> participants in OD settings) are instructed to tell a single coherent and
>>>> logical story as a group. They all take turns to say a sentence, a sentence
>>>> of not more than 6 words (depending on the instructor ), each time linking
>>>> your sentence to the sentence of previous articulator, with the next person
>>>> also doing the same, until the story sounds complete with conclusion. More
>>>> important is that they compose this story impromptu, It with such stories
>>>> that group dynamics are analysed, and in group therapy cases, collective
>>>> experiences of trauma are shared.  I suppose this is an example of
>>>> cooperative activity, although previously I would have thought of it as
>>>> just an “activity”
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Simangele
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:
>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] *On Behalf Of *robsub@ariadne.org.uk
>>>> *Sent:* Friday, 16 November 2018 21:01
>>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>;
>>>> Helena Worthen <helenaworthen@gmail.com>
>>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Michael C. Corballis
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I remember being told once that many languages do not have separate
>>>> words for singing and dancing, because if you sing you want to move - until
>>>> western civilisation beats it out of you.
>>>>
>>>> Does anybody know if this is actually true, or is it complete cod?
>>>>
>>>> If it is true, does it have something to say about the relationship
>>>> between the physical body and the development of speech?
>>>>
>>>> Rob
>>>>
>>>> On 16/11/2018 17:29, Helena Worthen wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I am very interested in where this conversation is going. I remember
>>>> being in a Theories of Literacy class in which Glynda Hull, the instructor,
>>>> showed a video of a singing circle somewhere in the Amazon, where an
>>>> incredibly complicated pattern of musical phrases wove in and out among the
>>>> singers underlaid by drumming that included turn-taking, call and response,
>>>> you name it. Maybe 20 people were involved, all pushing full steam ahead to
>>>> create something together that they all seemed to know about but wouldn’t
>>>> happen until they did it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Certainly someone has studied the relationship of musical communication
>>>> (improvised or otherwise), speech and gesture? I have asked musicians about
>>>> this and get blank looks. Yet clearly you can tell when you listen to
>>>> different kinds of music, not just Amazon drum and chant circles, that
>>>> there is some kind of speech - like potential embedded there. The Sonata
>>>> form is clearly involves exposition (they even use that word).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> For example: the soundtrack to the Coen Brothers’ film Fargo opens with
>>>> a musical theme that says, as clearly as if we were reading aloud from some
>>>> children’s book, “I am now going to tell you a very strange story that
>>>> sounds impossible but I promise you every word of it is
>>>> true…da-de-da-de-da.’ Only it doesn’t take that many words.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> (18) Fargo (1996) - 'Fargo, North Dakota' (Opening) scene [1080] -
>>>> YouTube
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Helena Worthen
>>>>
>>>> helenaworthen@gmail.com
>>>>
>>>> Berkeley, CA 94707 510-828-2745
>>>>
>>>> Blog US/ Viet Nam:
>>>>
>>>> helenaworthen.wordpress.com
>>>>
>>>> skype: helena.worthen1
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Nov 16, 2018, at 8:56 AM, HENRY SHONERD <hshonerd@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Andy and Peter,
>>>>
>>>> I like the turn taking principle a lot. It links language and music
>>>> very nicely: call and response. By voice and ear. While gesture is linked
>>>> to visual art. In face-to-face conversation there is this rhythmically
>>>> entrained interaction. It’s not just cooperative, it’s verbal/gestural art.
>>>> Any human work is potentially a work of art. Vera John-Steiner and Holbrook
>>>> Mahn have talked about how conversation can be a co-construction “at the
>>>> speed of thought”.  Heady stuff taking part, or just listening to, this
>>>> call and response between smart people.  And disheartening and destructive
>>>> when we give up on dialog.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As I write this, I realize that the prosodic aspects of spoken language
>>>> (intonation) are gestural as well. It’s simplistic to restrict gesture to
>>>> visual signals. But I would say gesture is prototypically visual, an
>>>> accompaniment to the voice. In surfing the web, one can find some
>>>> interesting things on paralanguage which complicate the distinction between
>>>> language and gesture. I think it speaks to the embodiment of language in
>>>> the senses.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Henry
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Nov 16, 2018, at 7:00 AM, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] <
>>>> pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Andy,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I couldn't agree more. And thanks for introducing me to the notion
>>>> of delayed gratification as a precondition for sharing and turn-taking.
>>>>
>>>> That's a feature I hadn't considered before in connection with speech
>>>> communication. It makes sense that each participant would need
>>>>
>>>> to exercise patience in order to wait out someone else's turn.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Much obliged.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 8:50 AM Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Interesting, Peter.
>>>>
>>>> Corballis, oddly in my view, places a lot of weight in so-called mirror
>>>> neurons to explain perception of the intentionality of others. It seems
>>>> blindingly obvious to me that cooperative activity, specifically
>>>> participating in projects in which individuals share a common not-present
>>>> object, is a form of behaviour which begets the necessary perceptive
>>>> abilities. I have also long been of the view that delayed gratification, as
>>>> a precondition for sharing and turn-taking, as a matter of fact, is an
>>>> important aspect of sociality fostering the development of speech, and the
>>>> upright gait which frees the hands for carrying food back to camp where it
>>>> can be shared is important. None of which presupposes tools, only
>>>> cooperation.
>>>>
>>>> Andy
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Andy Blunden
>>>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ethicalpolitics.org_ablunden_index.htm&d=DwMFaQ&c=aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r=mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=itd0qPWlE7uAuyEX0ii8ohEoZegfdMAOOLf-YoaEqqs&s=-uwTjZDhHtJM2EFdBS-rXLTptADQdSGAcibaav-mhJw&e=>
>>>>
>>>> On 17/11/2018 12:36 am, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] wrote:
>>>>
>>>> If I might chime in to this discussion:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I submit that the key cooperative activity underlying speech
>>>> communication is *turn-taking*. I don't know how that activity or rule came
>>>> into being,
>>>>
>>>> but once it did, the activity of *exchanging* utterances became
>>>> possible. And with exchange came the complementarity of speaking and
>>>>
>>>> listening roles, and the activity of alternating conversational roles
>>>> and mental perspectives. Turn-taking is a key process in human development.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 9:21 PM Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Oddly, Amazon delivered the book to me yesterday and I am currently on
>>>> p.5. Fortunately, Corballis provides a synopsis of his book at the end,
>>>> which I sneak-previewed last night.
>>>>
>>>> The interesting thing to me is his claim, similar to that of Merlin
>>>> Donald, which goes like this.
>>>>
>>>> It would be absurd to suggest that proto-humans discovered that they
>>>> had this unique and wonderful vocal apparatus and decided to use it for
>>>> speech. Clearly* there was rudimentary language before speech was
>>>> humanly possible*. In development, a behaviour is always present
>>>> before the physiological adaptations which facilitate it come into being.
>>>> I.e, proto-humans found themselves in circumstances where it made sense to
>>>> develop interpersonal, voluntary communication, and to begin with they used
>>>> what they had - the ability to mime and gesture, make facial expressions
>>>> and vocalisations (all of which BTW can reference non-present entities and
>>>> situations) This is an activity which further produces the conditions for
>>>> its own development. Eventually, over millions of years, the vocal
>>>> apparatus evolved under strong selection pressure due to the practice of
>>>> non-speech communication as an integral part of their evolutionary niche.
>>>> In other words, rudimentary wordless speech gradually became modern
>>>> speech, along with all the accompanying facial expressions and hand
>>>> movements.
>>>>
>>>> It just seems to me that, as you suggest, collective activity must have
>>>> been a part of those conditions fostering communication (something found in
>>>> our nearest evolutionary cousins who also have the elements of rudimentary
>>>> speech)  - as was increasing tool-using, tool-making, tool-giving and
>>>> tool-instructing.
>>>>
>>>> Andy
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Andy Blunden
>>>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ethicalpolitics.org_ablunden_index.htm&d=DwMFaQ&c=aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r=mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=VlOXr8x02-mghKHGod2LwGx8_X-LHNRmDI_elI-7rKI&s=A3k5oeQ13zGCPUbWibdOb2KNZT4q__fLyCwugyULUDw&e=>
>>>>
>>>> On 16/11/2018 12:58 pm, Arturo Escandon wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Dear Andy,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Michael Tomasello has made similar claims, grounding the surge of
>>>> articulated language on innate co-operativism and collective activity.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/cambridge-handbook-of-child-language/90B84B8F3BB2D32E9FA9E2DFAF4D2BEB
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.cambridge.org_core_books_cambridge-2Dhandbook-2Dof-2Dchild-2Dlanguage_90B84B8F3BB2D32E9FA9E2DFAF4D2BEB&d=DwMFaQ&c=aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r=mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=VlOXr8x02-mghKHGod2LwGx8_X-LHNRmDI_elI-7rKI&s=vxJZooXRDYwTRrM4dzWBbLfUhF9HhmUvU3ouq6sbwPI&e=>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Arturo
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Sent from Gmail Mobile
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
>>>>
>>>> Director,
>>>>
>>>> Office of Institutional Research
>>>> <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
>>>>
>>>> Fordham University
>>>>
>>>> Thebaud Hall-202
>>>>
>>>> Bronx, NY 10458
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Phone: (718) 817-2243
>>>>
>>>> Fax: (718) 817-3817
>>>>
>>>> email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
>>>>
>>>> Director,
>>>>
>>>> Office of Institutional Research
>>>> <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
>>>>
>>>> Fordham University
>>>>
>>>> Thebaud Hall-202
>>>>
>>>> Bronx, NY 10458
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Phone: (718) 817-2243
>>>>
>>>> Fax: (718) 817-3817
>>>>
>>>> email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>
>
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