[Xmca-l] Re: language and music

[James Ma]

This is perhaps the quintessence of Xmca-I discussion, which provides an
oasis for intellectual cross-fertilisation, resulting in the heterogeneity
of ontogenetic reflection and enrichment. One interesting thing is that
interactants draw upon their autobiography while expressing their views. I
remember what Bertrand Russell said about this (not exact words):
Dogs don't relate themselves to their autobiography (however eloquently,
sophisticatedly they bark), whereas humans do!

James

*________________________________________________*

*James Ma  Independent Scholar **https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa
<https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa>   *


On Fri, 23 Nov 2018 at 02:59, Helena Worthen <helenaworthen@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Maybe what follows is a symptom of the asynchrony of list-serves, but I
> think it’s also a real issue:
>
> I get stumped by the numerous special vocabularies that float around on
> this list, each stemming from a particular tradition (which is sometimes
> just one scholar/writer plus some commentators, critics and students).
> Since I’m someone who always wants to ask, “What is this useful for?” I
> want to simplify and equate terms across traditions. I know that some
> meaning will get lost, but it also might help tie things down. Are all
> these vocabularies part of the same language, or are they incompatible? Can
> we talk about heteroglossia and intersubjectivity in the same sentence?
>
> Helena Worthen
> helenaworthen@gmail.com
> Berkeley, CA 94707 510-828-2745
> Blog US/ Viet Nam:
> helenaworthen.wordpress.com
> skype: helena.worthen1
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 22, 2018, at 9:52 AM, Greg Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> James and Helena (and others),
>
> Martin checked me offline for putting forward a notion of
> intersubjectivity that presumes that subjects are prior to
> intersubjectivity.
> I entirely agree with Martin's concern that a properly dialectical notion
> of the subject would recognize that intersubjectivity and subjectivity are
> mutually constitutive (and perhaps we should just speak of
> "intersubjects"?).
>
> In fact, I happen to have two papers (attached) that seek to forward such
> a notion of mutual constitution of subjectivity and intersubjectivity (and
> beyond). One is in the idiom of self and frame (Goffman 1973) and the other
> in the idiom of subjectivity and stance (Du Bois 2007 - more on that in a
> sec). In the stance paper, I draw on the notion of contract as it pertains
> to right (I even briefly cite Fichte and Hegel) as a way of trying to
> capture some of the ways that subjectivity is real-ized (Bakhtin speaks of
> subjects being "consummated") in the interstitial space between self and
> other (not just other subjects, but also bodies and things that can serve
> to take stances toward subjects), and as captured by Du Bois'
> undertheorized notion of "stance ownership" - which I seek to theorize in
> this paper.
>
> With regard to Bakhtin, I'd love to hear more. I'd note that John Du Bois'
> notion of dialogic syntax might be particularly relevant here. He draws on
> Bakhtin to make the case that syntax is fundamentally dialogical. I wonder
> if others are familiar and/or have any thoughts on this approach and how it
> might fit with Vygotsky's work?
>
> Helena, I didn't mean to hijack your intentions in bringing up Bakhtin - I
> wholeheartedly second a conversation (bad conversational participant that I
> am!) about Bakhtin!
>
> (and perhaps I should have added this to a different thread - I still find
> the asynchrony of listserves make it difficult to maintain "a conversation"
> in any traditional sense - chaining is normal in face-to-face
> conversations, but whereas in f2f conversations everyone more or less goes
> along with a single chain of topics (and the negotiation thereof is a big
> part of making conversations - and making subjects!) in listserve
> conversations, the chaining can spin off into many directions at once and
> the coherence of the conversation can quickly be lost (and the subjects
> with it!).)
>
> (And one last parenthetical note, in typing "listserve" I just realized
> how old fashioned we are! Are there other more contemporary mediated spaces
> out there where Vygotsky is being discussed? Might such conversational
> spaces allow for more involvement from and animation of a next generation
> of CHAT thinkers? Just wondering...).
>
> -greg
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 12:42 PM Helena Worthen <helenaworthen@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Outlines?  This sent me to my dog-eared (but lying on the shelf for 20
>> years) copy of *The Dialogic Imagination*, Michael Holquist’s
>> collectiion of four essays by Bakhtin.
>>
>> So, on the topic of edges, outlines and constraints on the one hand, and
>> coherence and wholeness on the other, I’d like to offer the concept of
>> “utterance,” a speech act performed in order to generate, sooner or later,
>> a counterstatement. (I’m cribbing from Holquist’s glossary on pg 434.) An
>> utterance can be brief or long; the defining feature of it is that gets a
>> response — it’s part of a dialog. A dialog can be you and me talking, or it
>> can be an entire discourse; a discourse itself can be an utterance.
>> Individual novels are utterances in the genre of novels, which Holquist
>> says is “a horizon of expectations brought to bear on a certain class of
>> text types…”
>>
>> Anyone else want to talk about Bahktin? Then we could talk about the way
>> a song coheres and musical improvisation operates under a horizon of
>> expectations, but come to think of it, does not generate a response.
>>
>> Something else: I’m still trying to learn Vietnamese. The CD I am
>> listening to now, produced by the University of Social Sciences
>> andHUmanities in HoChiMinh City, lists each track as a “song.” Thus, Track
>> 1, “Excuse me, what is your name?” appears on the CD menu as “Song 1.”
>>
>> H
>>
>> Helena Worthen
>> helenaworthen@gmail.com
>> Berkeley, CA 94707 510-828-2745
>> Blog US/ Viet Nam:
>> helenaworthen.wordpress.com
>> skype: helena.worthen1
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Nov 21, 2018, at 12:07 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil <a.j.gil@ils.uio.no>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Henry's remarks about no directors and symphonic potential of
>> conversation reminded me of G. Bateson's metalogue "why do things have
>> outlines" (attached). Implicitly, it raises the question of units and
>> elements, of how a song, a dance, a poem, a conversation, to make sense,
>> they must have a recognizable outline, even in improvisation; they must be
>> wholes, or suggest wholes. That makes them "predictable". And yet, when you
>> are immersed in a conversation, the fact that you can never exactly predict
>> what comes next is the whole point that keep us talking, dancing, drawing,
>> etc!
>>
>>
>> Alfredo
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> on behalf of HENRY SHONERD <hshonerd@gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* 21 November 2018 06:22
>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: language and music
>>
>> I’d like to add to the call and response conversation that discourse,
>> this conversation itself, is staged. There are performers and and an
>> audience made up partly of performers themselves. How many are lurkers, as
>> I am usually? This conversation has no director, but there are leaders.
>> There is symphonic potential. And even gestural potential, making the chat
>> a dance. All on line.:)
>> Henry
>>
>>
>>
>> On Nov 20, 2018, at 9:05 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>>
>> For many years I used the work of Ellen Dissenyake to teach comm classes
>> about language/music/development. She is quite unusual in ways that might
>> find interest here.
>>
>> https://ellendissanayake.com/
>>
>> mike
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 17, 2018 at 2:16 PM James Ma <jamesma320@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Hello Simangele,
>>>
>>> In semiotic terms, whatever each of the participants has constructed
>>> internally is the signified, i.e. his or her understanding and
>>> interpretation. When it is vocalised (spoken out), it becomes the signifier
>>> to the listener. What's more, when the participants work together to
>>> compose a story impromptu, each of their signifiers turns into a new
>>> signified – a shared, newly-established understanding, woven into the
>>> fabric of meaning making.
>>>
>>> By the way, in Chinese language, words for singing and dancing have long
>>> been used inseparably. As I see it, they are semiotically indexed to, or
>>> adjusted to allow for, the feelings, emotions, actions and interactions of
>>> a consciousness who is experiencing the singing and dancing. Here are some
>>> idioms:
>>>
>>> 酣歌醉舞 - singing and dancing rapturously
>>>
>>> 村歌社舞 - dancing village and singing club
>>>
>>> 燕歌赵舞 - citizens of ancient Yan and Zhao good at singing and dancing,
>>> hence referring to wonderful songs and dances
>>>
>>> 舞榭歌楼 - a church or building set up for singing and dancing
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> James
>>>
>>> *________________________________________________*
>>>
>>> *James Ma  Independent Scholar **https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa
>>> <https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa>   *
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 at 19:08, Simangele Mayisela <
>>> simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Colleagues,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This conversation is getting even more interesting, not that I have an
>>>> informed answer for you Rob, I can only think of the National Anthems where
>>>> people stand still when singing, even then this is observed only in
>>>> international events.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Other occasions when people are likely not to move when singing when
>>>> there is death and the mood is sombre. Otherwise singing and rhythmic body
>>>> movement, called dance are a norm.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This then makes me  wonder what this means in terms of cognitive
>>>> functioning, in the light of Vygotsky’s developmental stages – of language
>>>> and thought. Would the body movement constitute the externalisation of the
>>>> thoughts contained in the music?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Helena – the video you are relating about reminds of the language
>>>> teaching or group therapy technique- where a group of learners (or
>>>> participants in OD settings) are instructed to tell a single coherent and
>>>> logical story as a group. They all take turns to say a sentence, a sentence
>>>> of not more than 6 words (depending on the instructor ), each time linking
>>>> your sentence to the sentence of previous articulator, with the next person
>>>> also doing the same, until the story sounds complete with conclusion. More
>>>> important is that they compose this story impromptu, It with such stories
>>>> that group dynamics are analysed, and in group therapy cases, collective
>>>> experiences of trauma are shared.  I suppose this is an example of
>>>> cooperative activity, although previously I would have thought of it as
>>>> just an “activity”
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Simangele
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:
>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] *On Behalf Of *robsub@ariadne.org.uk
>>>> *Sent:* Friday, 16 November 2018 21:01
>>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>;
>>>> Helena Worthen <helenaworthen@gmail.com>
>>>> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Michael C. Corballis
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I remember being told once that many languages do not have separate
>>>> words for singing and dancing, because if you sing you want to move - until
>>>> western civilisation beats it out of you.
>>>>
>>>> Does anybody know if this is actually true, or is it complete cod?
>>>>
>>>> If it is true, does it have something to say about the relationship
>>>> between the physical body and the development of speech?
>>>>
>>>> Rob
>>>>
>>>> On 16/11/2018 17:29, Helena Worthen wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I am very interested in where this conversation is going. I remember
>>>> being in a Theories of Literacy class in which Glynda Hull, the instructor,
>>>> showed a video of a singing circle somewhere in the Amazon, where an
>>>> incredibly complicated pattern of musical phrases wove in and out among the
>>>> singers underlaid by drumming that included turn-taking, call and response,
>>>> you name it. Maybe 20 people were involved, all pushing full steam ahead to
>>>> create something together that they all seemed to know about but wouldn’t
>>>> happen until they did it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Certainly someone has studied the relationship of musical communication
>>>> (improvised or otherwise), speech and gesture? I have asked musicians about
>>>> this and get blank looks. Yet clearly you can tell when you listen to
>>>> different kinds of music, not just Amazon drum and chant circles, that
>>>> there is some kind of speech - like potential embedded there. The Sonata
>>>> form is clearly involves exposition (they even use that word).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> For example: the soundtrack to the Coen Brothers’ film Fargo opens with
>>>> a musical theme that says, as clearly as if we were reading aloud from some
>>>> children’s book, “I am now going to tell you a very strange story that
>>>> sounds impossible but I promise you every word of it is
>>>> true…da-de-da-de-da.’ Only it doesn’t take that many words.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> (18) Fargo (1996) - 'Fargo, North Dakota' (Opening) scene [1080] -
>>>> YouTube
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Helena Worthen
>>>>
>>>> helenaworthen@gmail.com
>>>>
>>>> Berkeley, CA 94707 510-828-2745
>>>>
>>>> Blog US/ Viet Nam:
>>>>
>>>> helenaworthen.wordpress.com
>>>>
>>>> skype: helena.worthen1
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Nov 16, 2018, at 8:56 AM, HENRY SHONERD <hshonerd@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Andy and Peter,
>>>>
>>>> I like the turn taking principle a lot. It links language and music
>>>> very nicely: call and response. By voice and ear. While gesture is linked
>>>> to visual art. In face-to-face conversation there is this rhythmically
>>>> entrained interaction. It’s not just cooperative, it’s verbal/gestural art.
>>>> Any human work is potentially a work of art. Vera John-Steiner and Holbrook
>>>> Mahn have talked about how conversation can be a co-construction “at the
>>>> speed of thought”.  Heady stuff taking part, or just listening to, this
>>>> call and response between smart people.  And disheartening and destructive
>>>> when we give up on dialog.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As I write this, I realize that the prosodic aspects of spoken language
>>>> (intonation) are gestural as well. It’s simplistic to restrict gesture to
>>>> visual signals. But I would say gesture is prototypically visual, an
>>>> accompaniment to the voice. In surfing the web, one can find some
>>>> interesting things on paralanguage which complicate the distinction between
>>>> language and gesture. I think it speaks to the embodiment of language in
>>>> the senses.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Henry
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Nov 16, 2018, at 7:00 AM, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] <
>>>> pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Andy,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I couldn't agree more. And thanks for introducing me to the notion
>>>> of delayed gratification as a precondition for sharing and turn-taking.
>>>>
>>>> That's a feature I hadn't considered before in connection with speech
>>>> communication. It makes sense that each participant would need
>>>>
>>>> to exercise patience in order to wait out someone else's turn.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Much obliged.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 8:50 AM Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Interesting, Peter.
>>>>
>>>> Corballis, oddly in my view, places a lot of weight in so-called mirror
>>>> neurons to explain perception of the intentionality of others. It seems
>>>> blindingly obvious to me that cooperative activity, specifically
>>>> participating in projects in which individuals share a common not-present
>>>> object, is a form of behaviour which begets the necessary perceptive
>>>> abilities. I have also long been of the view that delayed gratification, as
>>>> a precondition for sharing and turn-taking, as a matter of fact, is an
>>>> important aspect of sociality fostering the development of speech, and the
>>>> upright gait which frees the hands for carrying food back to camp where it
>>>> can be shared is important. None of which presupposes tools, only
>>>> cooperation.
>>>>
>>>> Andy
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Andy Blunden
>>>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ethicalpolitics.org_ablunden_index.htm&d=DwMFaQ&c=aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r=mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=itd0qPWlE7uAuyEX0ii8ohEoZegfdMAOOLf-YoaEqqs&s=-uwTjZDhHtJM2EFdBS-rXLTptADQdSGAcibaav-mhJw&e=>
>>>>
>>>> On 17/11/2018 12:36 am, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] wrote:
>>>>
>>>> If I might chime in to this discussion:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I submit that the key cooperative activity underlying speech
>>>> communication is *turn-taking*. I don't know how that activity or rule came
>>>> into being,
>>>>
>>>> but once it did, the activity of *exchanging* utterances became
>>>> possible. And with exchange came the complementarity of speaking and
>>>>
>>>> listening roles, and the activity of alternating conversational roles
>>>> and mental perspectives. Turn-taking is a key process in human development.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 9:21 PM Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Oddly, Amazon delivered the book to me yesterday and I am currently on
>>>> p.5. Fortunately, Corballis provides a synopsis of his book at the end,
>>>> which I sneak-previewed last night.
>>>>
>>>> The interesting thing to me is his claim, similar to that of Merlin
>>>> Donald, which goes like this.
>>>>
>>>> It would be absurd to suggest that proto-humans discovered that they
>>>> had this unique and wonderful vocal apparatus and decided to use it for
>>>> speech. Clearly* there was rudimentary language before speech was
>>>> humanly possible*. In development, a behaviour is always present
>>>> before the physiological adaptations which facilitate it come into being.
>>>> I.e, proto-humans found themselves in circumstances where it made sense to
>>>> develop interpersonal, voluntary communication, and to begin with they used
>>>> what they had - the ability to mime and gesture, make facial expressions
>>>> and vocalisations (all of which BTW can reference non-present entities and
>>>> situations) This is an activity which further produces the conditions for
>>>> its own development. Eventually, over millions of years, the vocal
>>>> apparatus evolved under strong selection pressure due to the practice of
>>>> non-speech communication as an integral part of their evolutionary niche.
>>>> In other words, rudimentary wordless speech gradually became modern
>>>> speech, along with all the accompanying facial expressions and hand
>>>> movements.
>>>>
>>>> It just seems to me that, as you suggest, collective activity must have
>>>> been a part of those conditions fostering communication (something found in
>>>> our nearest evolutionary cousins who also have the elements of rudimentary
>>>> speech)  - as was increasing tool-using, tool-making, tool-giving and
>>>> tool-instructing.
>>>>
>>>> Andy
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Andy Blunden
>>>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ethicalpolitics.org_ablunden_index.htm&d=DwMFaQ&c=aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r=mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=VlOXr8x02-mghKHGod2LwGx8_X-LHNRmDI_elI-7rKI&s=A3k5oeQ13zGCPUbWibdOb2KNZT4q__fLyCwugyULUDw&e=>
>>>>
>>>> On 16/11/2018 12:58 pm, Arturo Escandon wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Dear Andy,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Michael Tomasello has made similar claims, grounding the surge of
>>>> articulated language on innate co-operativism and collective activity.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/cambridge-handbook-of-child-language/90B84B8F3BB2D32E9FA9E2DFAF4D2BEB
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.cambridge.org_core_books_cambridge-2Dhandbook-2Dof-2Dchild-2Dlanguage_90B84B8F3BB2D32E9FA9E2DFAF4D2BEB&d=DwMFaQ&c=aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r=mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=VlOXr8x02-mghKHGod2LwGx8_X-LHNRmDI_elI-7rKI&s=vxJZooXRDYwTRrM4dzWBbLfUhF9HhmUvU3ouq6sbwPI&e=>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Arturo
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Sent from Gmail Mobile
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
>>>>
>>>> Director,
>>>>
>>>> Office of Institutional Research
>>>> <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
>>>>
>>>> Fordham University
>>>>
>>>> Thebaud Hall-202
>>>>
>>>> Bronx, NY 10458
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Phone: (718) 817-2243
>>>>
>>>> Fax: (718) 817-3817
>>>>
>>>> email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
>>>>
>>>> Director,
>>>>
>>>> Office of Institutional Research
>>>> <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
>>>>
>>>> Fordham University
>>>>
>>>> Thebaud Hall-202
>>>>
>>>> Bronx, NY 10458
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Phone: (718) 817-2243
>>>>
>>>> Fax: (718) 817-3817
>>>>
>>>> email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is
>>>> confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please
>>>> notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or
>>>> disseminate this communication without the permission of the University.
>>>> Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on
>>>> behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content
>>>> of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may
>>>> contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not
>>>> necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand,
>>>> Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are
>>>> subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the
>>>> contrary.
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> Assistant Professor
> Department of Anthropology
> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> Brigham Young University
> Provo, UT 84602
> WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu
> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
>
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20181123/6dfa72a2/attachment.html