[Xmca-l] Re: Michael C. Corballis

Tue Nov 20 13:29:45 PST 2018

Hi Helena, Simangele and and eXtended family,
I love the direction this is going in as well ! I am working on a
publication
that includes this topic as a corollary to an overarching theme.
I can not go into detail since it is not submitted to the publisher yet.
but there is a strong case to be made
that music and language co-evolved. See these...

Schulkin, J. & Gjerdingen, R. O. (2013). *Reflections on the musical mind:
An evolutionary perspective.* Princeton: Princeton University Press.

Bernstein, L. (1976). *The unanswered question: Six talks at Harvard.*
Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press.

On Sat, Nov 17, 2018 at 2:07 PM Simangele Mayisela <
simangele.mayisela@wits.ac.za> wrote:

>
>
> Colleagues,
>
>
>
> This conversation is getting even more interesting, not that I have an
> informed answer for you Rob, I can only think of the National Anthems where
> people stand still when singing, even then this is observed only in
> international events.
>
>
>
> Other occasions when people are likely not to move when singing when there
> is death and the mood is sombre. Otherwise singing and rhythmic body
> movement, called dance are a norm.
>
>
>
> This then makes me  wonder what this means in terms of cognitive
> functioning, in the light of Vygotsky’s developmental stages – of language
> and thought. Would the body movement constitute the externalisation of the
> thoughts contained in the music?
>
>
>
> Helena – the video you are relating about reminds of the language teaching
> or group therapy technique- where a group of learners (or participants in
> OD settings) are instructed to tell a single coherent and logical story as
> a group. They all take turns to say a sentence, a sentence of not more than
> 6 words (depending on the instructor ), each time linking your sentence to
> the sentence of previous articulator, with the next person also doing the
> same, until the story sounds complete with conclusion. More important is
> that they compose this story impromptu, It with such stories that group
> dynamics are analysed, and in group therapy cases, collective experiences
> of trauma are shared.  I suppose this is an example of cooperative
> activity, although previously I would have thought of it as just an
> “activity”
>
>
>
> Simangele
>
>
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> *From:* xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:
> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] *On Behalf Of *robsub@ariadne.org.uk
> *Sent:* Friday, 16 November 2018 21:01
> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>; Helena
> Worthen <helenaworthen@gmail.com>
> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Michael C. Corballis
>
>
>
> I remember being told once that many languages do not have separate words
> for singing and dancing, because if you sing you want to move - until
> western civilisation beats it out of you.
>
> Does anybody know if this is actually true, or is it complete cod?
>
> If it is true, does it have something to say about the relationship
> between the physical body and the development of speech?
>
> Rob
>
> On 16/11/2018 17:29, Helena Worthen wrote:
>
> I am very interested in where this conversation is going. I remember being
> in a Theories of Literacy class in which Glynda Hull, the instructor,
> showed a video of a singing circle somewhere in the Amazon, where an
> incredibly complicated pattern of musical phrases wove in and out among the
> singers underlaid by drumming that included turn-taking, call and response,
> you name it. Maybe 20 people were involved, all pushing full steam ahead to
> create something together that they all seemed to know about but wouldn’t
> happen until they did it.
>
>
>
> Certainly someone has studied the relationship of musical communication
> (improvised or otherwise), speech and gesture? I have asked musicians about
> this and get blank looks. Yet clearly you can tell when you listen to
> different kinds of music, not just Amazon drum and chant circles, that
> there is some kind of speech - like potential embedded there. The Sonata
> form is clearly involves exposition (they even use that word).
>
>
>
> For example: the soundtrack to the Coen Brothers’ film Fargo opens with a
> musical theme that says, as clearly as if we were reading aloud from some
> children’s book, “I am now going to tell you a very strange story that
> sounds impossible but I promise you every word of it is
> true…da-de-da-de-da.’ Only it doesn’t take that many words.
>
>
>
> (18) Fargo (1996) - 'Fargo, North Dakota' (Opening) scene [1080] - YouTube
>
>
>
> Helena Worthen
>
> helenaworthen@gmail.com
>
> Berkeley, CA 94707 510-828-2745
>
> Blog US/ Viet Nam:
>
> helenaworthen.wordpress.com
>
> skype: helena.worthen1
>
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> On Nov 16, 2018, at 8:56 AM, HENRY SHONERD <hshonerd@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Andy and Peter,
>
> I like the turn taking principle a lot. It links language and music very
> nicely: call and response. By voice and ear. While gesture is linked to
> visual art. In face-to-face conversation there is this rhythmically
> entrained interaction. It’s not just cooperative, it’s verbal/gestural art.
> Any human work is potentially a work of art. Vera John-Steiner and Holbrook
> Mahn have talked about how conversation can be a co-construction “at the
> speed of thought”.  Heady stuff taking part, or just listening to, this
> call and response between smart people.  And disheartening and destructive
> when we give up on dialog.
>
>
>
> As I write this, I realize that the prosodic aspects of spoken language
> (intonation) are gestural as well. It’s simplistic to restrict gesture to
> visual signals. But I would say gesture is prototypically visual, an
> accompaniment to the voice. In surfing the web, one can find some
> interesting things on paralanguage which complicate the distinction between
> language and gesture. I think it speaks to the embodiment of language in
> the senses.
>
>
>
> Henry
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>
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> On Nov 16, 2018, at 7:00 AM, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] <
> pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote:
>
>
>
> Andy,
>
>
>
> I couldn't agree more. And thanks for introducing me to the notion
> of delayed gratification as a precondition for sharing and turn-taking.
>
> That's a feature I hadn't considered before in connection with speech
> communication. It makes sense that each participant would need
>
> to exercise patience in order to wait out someone else's turn.
>
>
>
> Much obliged.
>
>
>
> Peter
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 8:50 AM Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:
>
> Interesting, Peter.
>
> Corballis, oddly in my view, places a lot of weight in so-called mirror
> neurons to explain perception of the intentionality of others. It seems
> blindingly obvious to me that cooperative activity, specifically
> participating in projects in which individuals share a common not-present
> object, is a form of behaviour which begets the necessary perceptive
> abilities. I have also long been of the view that delayed gratification, as
> a precondition for sharing and turn-taking, as a matter of fact, is an
> important aspect of sociality fostering the development of speech, and the
> upright gait which frees the hands for carrying food back to camp where it
> can be shared is important. None of which presupposes tools, only
> cooperation.
>
> Andy
> ------------------------------
>
> Andy Blunden
> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ethicalpolitics.org_ablunden_index.htm&d=DwMFaQ&c=aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r=mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=itd0qPWlE7uAuyEX0ii8ohEoZegfdMAOOLf-YoaEqqs&s=-uwTjZDhHtJM2EFdBS-rXLTptADQdSGAcibaav-mhJw&e=>
>
> On 17/11/2018 12:36 am, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] wrote:
>
> If I might chime in to this discussion:
>
>
>
> I submit that the key cooperative activity underlying speech communication
> is *turn-taking*. I don't know how that activity or rule came into being,
>
> but once it did, the activity of *exchanging* utterances became possible.
> And with exchange came the complementarity of speaking and
>
> listening roles, and the activity of alternating conversational roles and
> mental perspectives. Turn-taking is a key process in human development.
>
>
>
> Peter
>
>
>
>
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>
>
> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 9:21 PM Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:
>
> Oddly, Amazon delivered the book to me yesterday and I am currently on
> p.5. Fortunately, Corballis provides a synopsis of his book at the end,
> which I sneak-previewed last night.
>
> The interesting thing to me is his claim, similar to that of Merlin
> Donald, which goes like this.
>
> It would be absurd to suggest that proto-humans discovered that they had
> this unique and wonderful vocal apparatus and decided to use it for speech.
> Clearly* there was rudimentary language before speech was humanly
> possible*. In development, a behaviour is always present before the
> physiological adaptations which facilitate it come into being. I.e,
> proto-humans found themselves in circumstances where it made sense to
> develop interpersonal, voluntary communication, and to begin with they used
> what they had - the ability to mime and gesture, make facial expressions
> and vocalisations (all of which BTW can reference non-present entities and
> situations) This is an activity which further produces the conditions for
> its own development. Eventually, over millions of years, the vocal
> apparatus evolved under strong selection pressure due to the practice of
> non-speech communication as an integral part of their evolutionary niche.
> In other words, rudimentary wordless speech gradually became modern
> speech, along with all the accompanying facial expressions and hand
> movements.
>
> It just seems to me that, as you suggest, collective activity must have
> been a part of those conditions fostering communication (something found in
> our nearest evolutionary cousins who also have the elements of rudimentary
> speech)  - as was increasing tool-using, tool-making, tool-giving and
> tool-instructing.
>
> Andy
> ------------------------------
>
> Andy Blunden
> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ethicalpolitics.org_ablunden_index.htm&d=DwMFaQ&c=aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r=mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=VlOXr8x02-mghKHGod2LwGx8_X-LHNRmDI_elI-7rKI&s=A3k5oeQ13zGCPUbWibdOb2KNZT4q__fLyCwugyULUDw&e=>
>
> On 16/11/2018 12:58 pm, Arturo Escandon wrote:
>
> Dear Andy,
>
>
>
> Michael Tomasello has made similar claims, grounding the surge of
> articulated language on innate co-operativism and collective activity.
>
>
>
>
> https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/cambridge-handbook-of-child-language/90B84B8F3BB2D32E9FA9E2DFAF4D2BEB
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.cambridge.org_core_books_cambridge-2Dhandbook-2Dof-2Dchild-2Dlanguage_90B84B8F3BB2D32E9FA9E2DFAF4D2BEB&d=DwMFaQ&c=aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r=mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=VlOXr8x02-mghKHGod2LwGx8_X-LHNRmDI_elI-7rKI&s=vxJZooXRDYwTRrM4dzWBbLfUhF9HhmUvU3ouq6sbwPI&e=>
>
>
>
> Best
>
>
>
> Arturo
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Sent from Gmail Mobile
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
>
> Director,
>
> Office of Institutional Research
> <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
>
> Fordham University
>
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>
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>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
>
> Director,
>
> Office of Institutional Research
> <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
>
> Fordham University
>
> Thebaud Hall-202
>
> Bronx, NY 10458
>
>
>
> Phone: (718) 817-2243
>
> Fax: (718) 817-3817
>
> email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
>
>
>
>
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-- 
Robert Lake  Ed.D.
Professor of Social Foundations of Education
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