[Xmca-l] Re: (non)grieving scholarship

Andy Blunden andyb@marxists.org
Thu Mar 1 01:49:34 PST 2018 

Well, of course, you have a duty of solidarity which goes
beyond academia.

Andy

------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Blunden
ttp://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
On 1/03/2018 8:24 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote:
> Andy, that’s a beautiful statement; and, if that which we together constitute and constitutes us is beyond our control (as the Marx quote Greg brought up states), it makes sense that communist society cannot as such be the goal, but the practice and duty of solidarity. Now, instituting solidarity as a practice in academia, that sounds like a challenging but powerfully driving task, right? 
>
> Alfredo 
>
>> On 1 Mar 2018, at 08:10, Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org> wrote:
>>
>> In answer to your question, Alfredo, I think the point is
>> that "communism is not as such the goal of human development
>> – the form of human society," but is essentially the
>> practice and duty of *solidarity*. To be a communist is to
>> act on the duty of solidarity to the best of one's ability.
>> The day when solidarity is universal, that is communism.
>>
>> Andy
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> Andy Blunden
>> ttp://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>>> On 1/03/2018 5:55 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote:
>>> Absolutely Greg; fishing in the morning and criticising after dinner sounds really good to me! Marx's formulation seems totally relevant here, and his sounds like an ecological perspective too, but with subject, with content (where other formulations sound to me very useful, yet somehow content-less, abstract, I guess). But, where does a communist society begin? Or perhaps the question is, when does it begin? And what can current caught-up critical critics do to go fishing in the morning, apart from running races to secure steadily raising salaries in current society? Those well read Marxists could come handy here and give us a hand and help us getting started! 
>>> Alfredo
>>> ________________________________________
>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of Greg Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
>>> Sent: 01 March 2018 05:47
>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (non)grieving scholarship
>>>
>>> Michael G,
>>> Yes, I think you've really hit the nail on the head in pointing to the
>>> ecology within which academia sits. Apologies for being a gadfly here and
>>> simply pointing to a problem without pointing to a solution.
>>>
>>> How about we turn back to Marx?:
>>>
>>> "For as soon as the distribution of labour comes into being, each man has a
>>> particular, exclusive sphere of activity, which is forced upon him and from
>>> which he cannot escape. He is a hunter, a fisherman, a herdsman, or a
>>> critical critic, and must remain so if he does not want to lose his means
>>> of livelihood; while in communist society, where nobody has one exclusive
>>> sphere of activity but each can become accomplished in any branch he
>>> wishes, society regulates the general production and thus makes it possible
>>> for me to do one thing today and another tomorrow, to hunt in the morning,
>>> fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticise after dinner,
>>> just as I have a mind, without ever becoming hunter, fisherman, herdsman or
>>> critic. This fixation of social activity, this consolidation of what we
>>> ourselves produce into an objective power above us, growing out of our
>>> control, thwarting our expectations, bringing to naught our calculations,
>>> is one of the chief factors in historical development up till now."
>>>
>>> In Marx's view, we can all be academics (i.e., "critical critics").
>>> What do you think?
>>> -greg
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 8:26 PM, Glassman, Michael <glassman.13@osu.edu>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Greg,
>>>>
>>>> Here is my question. If we go to slow academics how do we determine on the
>>>> distribution of resources?  If we give people a lot of time to conduct
>>>> their work who gets that time?
>>>>
>>>> I think the scarcity of academic resources is very much a corporate
>>>> phenomenon. There really should be enough resources for everybody to pursue
>>>> academics as they wish.
>>>>
>>>> The peer review system and the publish or perish ethos is deeply flawed
>>>> and causes a lot of research that shouldn't be done, let alone published.
>>>> But if not at least a semblance of a level playing field you get with blind
>>>> review then how do you decide who deserves the resources. Is it based on
>>>> connections, networks, who you know, where you went to school?  Does
>>>> cultural capital become that much more important? Is this less democratic
>>>> or more democratic?
>>>>
>>>> To tell you the truth I don't know. The flaw is in the scarcity though,
>>>> not the system it seems to me. That we have allowed for a large academic
>>>> diaspora to emerge that is forced to teach for little money and no
>>>> benefits. Something we all allowed to happen.
>>>>
>>>> Michael
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@
>>>> mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Thompson
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2018 9:10 PM
>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (non)grieving scholarship
>>>>
>>>> (oh, and I didn't mean to be exclusive in pointing to Michael's work,
>>>> there are many others on the list who would fit this description!)
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 7:08 PM, Greg Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Yes, Michael, totally agreed. And I see you as a rare exception to the
>>>>> production mill. Whereas you manage to prolifically produce important
>>>>> writings, much of what is published is, to my mind, written too
>>>>> hurriedly and lacks the quality and importance of publications like
>>>> yours.
>>>>> -greg
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 5:33 PM, Wolff-Michael Roth <
>>>>> wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Greg, not all people will think being publishing machines. Some, like
>>>>>> myself, enjoy spending many hours a day writing, analyzing etc. and
>>>>>> turning all of this into peer-reviewed articles.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I referred to my earliest experience before, when I was told I would
>>>>>> not make tenure; and I felt I would not be able to make the 2
>>>>>> articles or so per year in high quality journals.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But after an absence from academia, it changed. I started doing
>>>>>> research for myself initially, and then wrote it up. From then on, it
>>>>>> was different, writing was something I wanted to do, and the more I
>>>>>> did, the better I got at it. (Not that the peer-review process would
>>>>>> have gotten easier.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I do admit, though, that the system as set up right now then tends to
>>>>>> reward people who publish more than others, and in "better" journals.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And it depends on context. In the department that I am affiliated
>>>>>> with, there are people promoted and tenured without at least a
>>>>>> handful of articles in commonly recognized journals. And if you are
>>>>>> happy with an average increase in your salary, you don't have to get
>>>>>> stressed in our place either.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 4:04 PM, Greg Thompson
>>>>>> <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I once toyed with the idea of "slow scholarship" and I remain
>>>>>>> entirely convinced that this is a virtue. But once I was entered
>>>>>>> into the competition/race of academia, it was all about how fast
>>>>>>> you can get to
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> finish line (aka "publications").
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Perhaps there is something good about this (assuming that it is
>>>>>>> better
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> publish something than to not publish anything), but it also has
>>>>>>> the nefarious effect of turning scholars into cogs in publishing
>>>> factories.
>>>>>>> And, continuing in this cynical spirit, I might add that the
>>>>>>> Science article about "Slow" actually seems to be making the same
>>>>>>> case for
>>>>>> speed -
>>>>>>> maybe it isn't a sprint, but it is still a race and first one to
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>> finish
>>>>>>> line wins, so you better pick up the pace! Fast!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And re: the man whispering in his ear as he runs:
>>>>>>> "We see how in this way the mode of production and the means of
>>>>>> production
>>>>>>> are continually transformed, revolutionised, *how the division of
>>>>>> labour is
>>>>>>> necessarily followed by greater divisions of labour, the
>>>>>>> application of machinery by still greater application of machinery,
>>>>>>> work on a large
>>>>>> scale
>>>>>>> by work on a still larger scale.*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "That is the law which again and again throws bourgeois production
>>>>>>> out
>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> its old course and which compels capital to intensify the
>>>>>>> productive
>>>>>> forces
>>>>>>> of labour, *because *it has intensified them, it, the law which
>>>>>>> gives capital no rest and continually whispers in its ear: 'Go on! Go
>>>> on!'"
>>>>>>> (Marx - Wage Labour and Capital).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -greg​
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 3:11 PM, Wolff-Michael Roth <
>>>>>>> wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>> this article "In praise of slow" appears to be fitting the
>>>> discussion.
>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>> author uses a nice analogy with running. Michael
>>>>>>>> http://science.sciencemag.org/content/359/6375/602
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 8:40 AM, Huw Lloyd
>>>>>>>> <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Assessing their abilities and accomplishments in this regard
>>>>>>>>> was a
>>>>>>>> matter
>>>>>>>>> of judgment and so could not be quantified; it could be
>>>>>>>>> exercised
>>>>>> only
>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>> those capable of it."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I would say, "cannot be quantified simply".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>> Huw
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 26 February 2018 at 15:05, Greg Thompson <
>>>>>> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And here is a nice article that speaks to the bureaucratic
>>>>>>>>>> logic
>>>>>>> that I
>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>> mentioning (the author refers to "the all-administrative
>>>>>>> institution"):
>>>>>>>>>> https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/whose-university-is-it-
>>>>>> anyway/#!
>>>>>>>>>> A quote from it:
>>>>>>>>>> "The revolution is over and the administrators have won. But
>>>>>>>>>> the persistence of traditional structures and language has
>>>>>>>>>> led some to
>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>> that the fight over the institution is now just beginning.
>>>>>>>>>> This
>>>>>> is a
>>>>>>>>>> mistake. As with most revolutions, open conflict occurs only
>>>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>> real
>>>>>>>>>> power has already changed hands."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -greg
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 6:27 PM, Martin Packer <
>>>>>> mpacker@cantab.net>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On STEM and social science:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> <<https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/24/opinion/sunday/
>>>>>>>>>>> doctors-revolt-bernard-lown.html?action=click&pgtype=
>>>>>>>>>>> Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-
>>>>>>>>>>> left-region&region=opinion-c-col-left-region&WT.nav=
>>>>>>>>>>> opinion-c-col-left-region <https://www.nytimes.com/2018/
>>>>>>>>>>> 02/24/opinion/sunday/doctors-revolt-bernard-lown.html?
>>>>>>>>>>> action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&
>>>>>>>>>>> module=opinion-c-col-left-region&region=opinion-c-col-
>>>>>>>>>>> left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On measures of learning:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/23/opinion/sunday/colleges
>>>>>>>>>>> - measure-learning-outcomes.html?action=click&pgtype=
>>>>>>>>>>> Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-
>>>>>>>>>>> left-region&region=opinion-c-col-left-region&WT.nav=
>>>>>>>>>>> opinion-c-col-left-region <https://www.nytimes.com/2018/
>>>>>>>>>>> 02/23/opinion/sunday/colleges-measure-learning-outcomes.
>>>>>>>>>>> html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-
>>>>>>>>>>> heading&module=opinion-c-col-left-region&region=opinion-c-
>>>>>>>>>>> col-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Martin
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 25, 2018, at 8:15 PM, Glassman, Michael <
>>>>>>>> glassman.13@osu.edu>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Huw,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps the opposite is also true though.  STEM
>>>>>>>>>>>> researchers
>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>> better
>>>>>>>>>>> understand what they are doing if they are well versed in
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> social
>>>>>>>>>>> sciences. Understand the history and the meaning of what
>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>> doing
>>>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>>>>> they do not act as androids (sorry, been watching the
>>>>>>>>>>> Aliens
>>>>>>> trilogy
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> late). Perhaps we made the wrong calculation. We have lost
>>>>>> control
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>>>>>> great STEM innovations because the people using them don't
>>>>>>> understand
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> social webs that they create.  So we have people pushing
>>>>>>>>>>> xMOOCs
>>>>>>>>> (whatever
>>>>>>>>>>> happened to MOOCs anyway) as saving education (and also a
>>>>>> bundle so
>>>>>>>>>>> everybody gets tax cuts, wheeee!), saying that they are
>>>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>> can reach many, the proverbial long tail, with great
>>>>>>>>>>> education
>>>>>>>>> (Harvard,
>>>>>>>>>>> Stanford).  Yet nobody asks the question, "Why is this a
>>>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>> thing."
>>>>>>>>>> There
>>>>>>>>>>> really isn't much supporting this in earlier distance
>>>> education.
>>>>>>>> There
>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>> actually more evidence of how dangerous it is
>>>>>>>>>>> (Participatory
>>>>>> Action
>>>>>>>>>>> Research).
>>>>>>>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@
>>>>>>>>>>> mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Huw Lloyd
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2018 7:32 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>>>>>>>>>>> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (non)grieving scholarship
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I would ask, what makes you think you have an ecology (or
>>>>>> niche)?
>>>>>>>> It
>>>>>>>>>>> seems that the notion of topologically derived ecologies is
>>>>>> still
>>>>>>>>> bandied
>>>>>>>>>>> about since Bronfenbrenner (1977), though I do not know
>>>>>>>>>>> whether
>>>>>> he
>>>>>>>>>> managed
>>>>>>>>>>> to refine (overhaul and improve) his notions into something
>>>>>>>> integrated
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> agent-centric. One does not provide an ecology or an
>>>>>> environment.
>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>> environment is different for everyone, a simple
>>>>>>>>>>> consideration
>>>>>> of a
>>>>>>>>>>> rock-face or climbing wall is sufficient to grasp this --
>>>>>>>>>>> the so
>>>>>>>> called
>>>>>>>>>>> environment (the rock face) is different to each climber,
>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>> environment
>>>>>>>>>>> is that which is appropriate to them which includes
>>>>>>>>>>> contexts
>>>>>> well
>>>>>>>>> beyond
>>>>>>>>>>> what is established in an institution. From what I can
>>>>>>>>>>> gauge,
>>>>>>>>>> historically,
>>>>>>>>>>> slack was deliberately introduced into courses to afford
>>>>>> personal
>>>>>>>>>> enquiry.
>>>>>>>>>>>> There was the basic work and then there was the genuine
>>>>>> enquiry.
>>>>>>>> Who
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>> their right mind wants to write an exam essay on a question
>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>> expected to pre-write and repeat by memory? Why would
>>>>>>>>>>> someone
>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>> enjoys
>>>>>>>>>>> thinking about their subject want to go through that kind
>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> impoverished
>>>>>>>>>>> tedium? These systems are obviously geared for "delivery".
>>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps the biggest cultural shift can be achieved
>>>>>>>>>>>> through
>>>>>>>>> instituting
>>>>>>>>>>> joint and personal enquiry. A teacher that stands before
>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>> class
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> delivers their subject inevitably obscures and obstructs
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> process
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> enquiry, although many students will have learnt from a
>>>>>>>>>>> young
>>>>>> age
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>> is what to expect and demand. Engagement with genuine
>>>>>>>>>>> problems
>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>> what students are expected to do is the basic orientational
>>>>>> issue.
>>>>>>>>>> Dispose
>>>>>>>>>>> of grades, then anyone who isn't interested is free to go
>>>> home.
>>>>>>>>>>>> The advance of STEM research is probably a good thing for
>>>>>> social
>>>>>>>>>> science.
>>>>>>>>>>>> For productive work, social science must understand the
>>>>>> structure
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> STEM based work, in addition to bureaucratic processes and
>>>>>>>>> circumstances
>>>>>>>>>>> for creative work. Sticking one's head in the sand over
>>>>>> STEM-like
>>>>>>>>>> research
>>>>>>>>>>> serves merely to perpetuate the impoverished side of social
>>>>>>> science.
>>>>>>>> It
>>>>>>>>>>> reminds me of the scene in Pirsig's Zen and the Art of
>>>>>> Motorcycle
>>>>>>>>>>> Maintenance in which a couple lack the wherewithal to fix a
>>>>>>> dripping
>>>>>>>>>> faucet
>>>>>>>>>>> that gives them grief and instead choose to ignore it.
>>>>>>>>>>> Though it
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>>>>>> long time ago, Pirsig's book may have contributed to my
>>>>>>> understanding
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> quality and might be thought of as an exploration of some
>>>>>>>>>>> social
>>>>>>>> issues
>>>>>>>>>>> pertaining to technical enterprises. Another good text to
>>>>>>> appreciate
>>>>>>>>>>> quality more directly, probably outside the formal area of
>>>>>> STEM, is
>>>>>>>>>>> Alshuller's Innovation Algorithm.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Warm regards to you Henry, Greg, Alfredo.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Huw
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25 February 2018 at 22:39, Alfredo Jornet Gil <
>>>>>>>>> a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Greg, Huw, and others, I do often get worried that in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> formals
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> informal meetings at our department (department of
>>>>>> education),
>>>>>>>>>>>>> conversations tend to focus on the "micro" developments
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> mention (students, grades, getting a next grant, getting
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> paper
>>>>>>>>>>>>> published, making sure you've got enough) most of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> time,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>>>>>>> much on what society we would like to have, and how our
>>>>>>>> institution
>>>>>>>>>>>>> could/should contribute to that. I do not have any
>>>>>> suggestions
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> type of studies that you ask about—dealing with how
>>>>>> ecologies of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> scholarship in academia lead to given developmental
>>>>>>> dynamics—other
>>>>>>>>>>>>> than the classical studies in STS, like Latour &
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Woolgar's on laboratory life, or S. L. Star's. But when
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I look forward at
>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>> lies
>>>>>>>>>>>>> between me (or anyone in my institution) and a change in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>> institution has impact in the life of many, what I see
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>> lots
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> routines, habits, documents, and paperwork entangled in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> middle,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> such that the idea "mediation all the way through" makes
>>>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sense. And seeing things that way (from the ecological
>>>>>>>> perspective),
>>>>>>>>>>>>> makes the possibility of changing things to look
>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually
>>>>>>>> feasible,
>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>> more accurately perhaps, imagine-able. I'd like to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> continue
>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>>>> part
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the ecology to be able to be also be part of its
>>>>>>>>>>>>> changing
>>>>>>> it. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> hope others will bring more specific literature to bear.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am
>>>>>>>>> already
>>>>>>>>>>> downloading some of Peter Sloterdijk's to read.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of Greg
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 24 February 2018 17:45
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (non)grieving scholarship
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I appreciate Huw's concern about academia and the push
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>> orient
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> broader and more systemic concern with "development". I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> this is what institutions of higher education are
>>>>>>>>>>>>> supposed to
>>>>>>>> have,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> right? - at the very least a concern for the development
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> individual
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "students", but also, one would hope, a concern for
>>>>>>> "development"
>>>>>>>>> at a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> longer timescale (e.g., how to be a better society, a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> better
>>>>>>>> world).
>>>>>>>>>>>>> They certainly tout these in their promo materials.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And yet, in practice, these institutions often fall back
>>>>>>>>>>>>> on bureaucratic or economic logics. Bureaucratic logic
>>>>>>>>>>>>> goes
>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>>>>>>> like, "just publish (in "good" (i.e., high impact
>>>>>>>>>>>>> factor)
>>>>>>>> journals),
>>>>>>>>>>>>> who cares what you publish so long as we can count it to
>>>>>>> determine
>>>>>>>>> its
>>>>>>>>>>> (and your) 'value'(!)".
>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for the economic logic, I was just talking with Rick
>>>>>> Shweder
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> other day about this issue and he expressed the concern
>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> push
>>>>>>>>>>>>> towards STEM education at the expense of all else and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the way
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> STEM buildings are slowly starting to take over his
>>>>>>>>>>>>> campus
>>>>>> (the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> University of Chicago - a place that was long held to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>> hold
>>>>>>>> out
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> liberal arts education - apparently they now have an
>>>>>> engineering
>>>>>>>>>>>>> program). He suggested that this is tied to an early
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 80's
>>>>>> court
>>>>>>>>>>>>> decision that gave universities ownership of patents
>>>>>> developed
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>> campuses.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To my mind, this calls to mind a concern with ecologies
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> development
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (across the shorter and longer timescales). What are the
>>>>>>> ecologies
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (social, economic, political, etc.) within which
>>>>>>>>>>>>> development
>>>>>> (at
>>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>>>>>>> various
>>>>>>>>>>>>> timescales) occurs in our world today? This is really a
>>>>>> question
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> what is possible and/or what is likely with regard to
>>>>>> becoming.
>>>>>>>> What
>>>>>>>>>>>>> are the forms of life and forms of development that are
>>>>>>>> sustainable
>>>>>>>>>>>>> given the larger ecologies in which that development
>>>> happens?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And for thinking through that problem, I've had a hard
>>>>>>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>> thinking
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of anyone who has better thought through this problem
>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>> Marx
>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the longer timescale of development, that is (Vygotsky
>>>>>> would, of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> course, be better at thinking through development at the
>>>>>> shorter
>>>>>>>>>>>>> timescale of ontogeny).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd love to hear others' thoughts on those who have
>>>>>>>>>>>>> studied
>>>>>>>>> activities
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that can begin to shed light on these ecologies of
>>>>>> development
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (particularly at the longer timescale). Any
>>>>>>> thoughts/suggestions?
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> would imagine this work considering various kinds of
>>>>>>> institutions
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> run the gamut - from venture capitalist firms to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-profits
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> governmental institutions to institutions of higher
>>>>>> education. I
>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>>> presume that each of these kinds of institutions would
>>>>>>>>>>>>> have a
>>>>>>>> local
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ecology within which they work, but I am tempted to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> imagine
>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>>> kind
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of global meta-ecology (perhaps Marx's "global
>>>>>>>>>>>>> capitalism"?) within which each of these local ecologies
>>>>>>> operates.
>>>>>>>>> I'd
>>>>>>>>>>>>> be curious about actual research that has been done
>>>>>> documenting
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nature of these ecologies - e.g., what kinds of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> resources are available to be exploited? What kinds of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibilities are
>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> different forms of life? What institutional organisms
>>>>>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>> thrive?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which are dying off? (and just to be clear, I am
>>>>>>>>>>>>> intending a biological/evolutionary nature of the
>>>> metaphor).
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems that this kind of work would be most likely to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>>>> done
>>>>>>>>>>>>> by folks in the CHAT world, but perhaps the scale (of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> space)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a bit beyond the scales that CHAT folks prefer to
>>>>>> consider?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (I should add that I've recently discovered the work of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Peter Sloterdijk's Bubbles trilogy and am curious if
>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone has any
>>>>>>>>> thoughts
>>>>>>>>>>>>> on the value of his approach - it seems to fit very well
>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> Marx
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> with CHAT/Vygotsky, my only initial concern was that he
>>>>>> seems to
>>>>>>>>> fly a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> little fast and loose with pyschoanalytics at times -
>>>>>>>>>>>>> not a
>>>>>>>> serious
>>>>>>>>>>>>> problem, but perhaps in a few places).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sympathetically,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> greg
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 1:57 PM, Huw Lloyd <
>>>>>>>>> huw.softdesigns@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, I would say there is more to it than simply
>>>>>>>> transfer-ability,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which might be thought of as a good bureaucratic
>>>>>> requirement.
>>>>>>>>> Really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what is required is genuine development --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reorganisation of
>>>>>>>>> thought
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> learning.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is what is significant at a personal level, which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>> also
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> basis
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> insights and creative work (i.e. personal knowledge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> second
>>>>>>>>>>>>> hand
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge). The researcher in the blog article does not
>>>>>> evince
>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (with allusions to the nature of her training). There
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the
>>>>>>>>> history
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> school children learn, which largely concerns the use
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> memory,
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then there
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the history of conditions, relations and processes,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>> concerns
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> protracted thought. This developmental emphasis is what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> lacking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in institutions which is why I have frequently pointed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>> out.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This principle apples to "secure" jobs too. The jobs I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> walked
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> away from have been due to the overly narrow scope,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where I
>>>>>>> felt
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was necessary to be far more ambitious to achieve
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> modest satisfaction, an ambition which included
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> achieving the wider
>>>>>>>> scope
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> within the norms established. Similar issues pertain to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my peripheral engagement with academia. Twenty years
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ago, after completing a masters in cognitive
>>>>>>>>>>>>> science
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (a good year), I decided against pursuing any further
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> formal education
>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any immediacy due to my sense that what I was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> encountering
>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> subject (and related subjects) was fundamentally wrong
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or inadequate, but I couldn't quite discern what that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was. So,
>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> me,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I had no interest in furthering the academic course at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> time,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because I was concerned with understanding, doing,
>>>>>> discovering
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> development, not being a "good researcher". I was and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> am uninterested in the trappings of academia, what it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> looks
>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the outside (with dubious ethics of promoting those in
>>>>>> society
>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> least need it) -- hence I am not too bothered about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> experiences come from. After all, if you want sound
>>>>>> knowledge
>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it should be validated in places where it counts (in
>>>>>> action),
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>> an echo chamber of words.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From my (developmental) perspective academia appears
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be chockfull of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unproductive thinking. The lack of systems
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understanding in
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> social sciences (which has been pointed out by key
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> persons
>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> two
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> generations)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> find to be quite incredible. This, as far as I can see,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> panacea to the stasis and lethargy that I have seen in
>>>>>> certain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> institutions, where there are people in secure jobs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with no
>>>>>>>>> interest
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in revitalising an institution (perhaps the same people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>> rely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> upon their status for authority). In the UK, in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> social
>>>>>>>>> sciences,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the whole social science infrastructure is built upon a
>>>>>> notion
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quality that is ignorant of systems -- that is the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> degree to
>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unproductive thinking has
>>>>>>>>>>>>> penetrated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> social science.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yet there is much more to it still. Recently I have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also
>>>>>> come
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> surprising awareness that developmental prerogatives
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> significant amount in common with spiritual ones. So I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>> offer
>>>>>>>>>>>>> broader
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> advice than Michael's of staying clear of hardship. It
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> may
>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "nadir" something surprising may be discovered. For
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone
>>>>>>> with a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> passion "job security" is not a goal, at best it is a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> means
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ends, at worst
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is an obstacle.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Over and out. :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Huw
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 20 February 2018 at 07:12, Alfredo Jornet Gil
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Huw, Helena, and all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thanks to you both for taking the discussion where I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> hoping
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> go
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> further: first, towards a reflection on the nature of
>>>>>> training
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> academic scholars go through as it concerns the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> classical
>>>>>>>> problem
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of learning "transfer"; and then, as it regards the
>>>>>> question
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> academic freedom
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually may be the same question, just taken in a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> language
>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>>> adequate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to an ecological understanding of the problem). This
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> absolutely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an individual problem. And, on that matter, I should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>> clear
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> am a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> privileged in a privileged land, where, despite all
>>>>>>> uncertainty
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> pains
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that my family have gone and go through, I have today
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> background
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> network, and probably better prospects than the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> majority of
>>>>>>>> junior
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> scholars
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out there. Not that I have earned this privilege for
>>>>>> nothing:
>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>>>> migrant
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> history and that of my family is all connected to an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> effort
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quest
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get better chances of academic opportunity in this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> market
>>>>>>> Helena
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> talks about. But my personal story, as that of the
>>>>>> historian
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the article shared or of my French astronomer friend,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>> relevant
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in as far as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> help us reflect on just those questions. They really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also
>>>>>> make
>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wonder
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on the sense of the term "academic freedom", for the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> latter
>>>>>>> term
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about doing whatever research you want to do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> independently
>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>>>>>>> market
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conditions and societal needs and economy. We may then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pose
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> questions,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what type of "freedom" is the "freedom" current
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> systems (of incentives,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ISI lists) afford, and what type of system could allow
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> another
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> meaning
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the term "freedom"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not to get too abstract, I guess that those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reflections
>>>>>> may be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> best pondered along concrete cases, if people is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> willing to
>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on Helena's suggestion to share particular stories of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> goes into getting
>>>>>>>>>>>>> into
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> secured academic job positions, or else, of pursuing
>>>>>>>> (in)dependent
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> careers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> outside/at the borders of/across academia.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of Helena Worthen <helenaworthen@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 19 February 2018 19:19
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (non)grieving scholarship
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In the interests of widening the discussion:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I’ve described my work history before on this list —
>>>>>>> basically,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> moving from teaching literature and writing (with
>>>>>> stopovers in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> landscape architecture and theater production) to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> concern
>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the working conditions of teachers, especially
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> academics in
>>>>>>>> higher
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> education, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 75%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who are contingent/adjuncts. The concern is both for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>>>>>> employed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this way and for the integrity of the institutions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>> employ
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them. I eventually engaged this concern by working
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with and
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the labor
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> movement,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ending up first working for the garment/apparel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> workers
>>>>>> union
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Philadelphia and then at the Labor Educaiton Program
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>> the U
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Illinois,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from which I retired in 2010.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The new twist to this story is about the employment of
>>>>>>> academics
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on short-term contracts in Viet Nam, under conditions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> seem
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be increasingly frequent in the “developing” world,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> market for education is booming. University World News
>>>>>>>> http://www
>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> universityworldnews.com/  tracks this phenomenon and
>>>>>> includes
>>>>>>>>>>>>> occasinal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> critical articles about the competition for rankings.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The university
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my husband and I have been teaching on and off since
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2015,
>>>>>> Ton
>>>>>>>> Duc
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thang
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ho Chi Minh City, recruits professors from all over
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>> world
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a promise of $2,000 per month US — but extending their
>>>>>>> contracts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> depends
>>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> producing articles published in journals on the ISI
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> list;
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nature of this list is worth taking a look at. The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impact
>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> practice on the culture and student body is not all bad.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My point here is to place the issue of the challenge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> getting
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tenure-track job in a global context. This is not just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an individual problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I’m willing to go further down this line of discussion.
>>>>>>> However,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> academics
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are often reluctant to reveal and compare their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> working
>>>>>>>> conditions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> “academic” discussion list. Maybe by putting up the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issue
>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> academic
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> freedom requires, and how these requirements fare in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> global
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> market
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> higher education, we can shed the embarassment of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> revealing information about our own experiences with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> getting the
>>>>>> brass
>>>>>>>> ring
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of a full-time, secure job.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let’s see if anyone picks up on this. Maybe I’m being
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> too
>>>>>>> vague.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Helena Worthen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> helenaworthen@gmail.com Berkeley, CA 94707
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 510-828-2745 Blog US/ Viet Nam:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> helenaworthen.wordpress.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> skype: helena.worthen1
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 19, 2018, at 9:19 AM, Huw Lloyd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The article describes accumulating large amounts of
>>>>>> knowledge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pertaining
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> history, which (the author maintains) cannot be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> turned to
>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> endeavours.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This, no doubt, is true for her. If, however, her
>>>>>> approach to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> studying
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> history had been systemic, then there would have been
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> powerful
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> form
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-application and continuity in any work that was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> turned
>>>>>> to.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same can be said for "phd/postdoc training". If it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reused
>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> isn't enabling, what, substantively, is it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Huw
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 18 February 2018 at 18:32, Alfredo Jornet Gil <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Really inspiring words and work, Francine. I do see
>>>>>>> community
>>>>>>>>>>>>> colleges
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many other educational settings apart from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> universities
>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> valuable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and exciting opportunities; the PhD and following
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> postdoc
>>>>>>> etc
>>>>>>>>>>>>> training
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> universities, however, tend to be very much targeted
>>>>>>> towards a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> narrow
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> spectrum of positions, or at least that's been my
>>>>>>> experience.
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> am
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> happy that this thread may widen that scope and make
>>>>>> visible
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> paths.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And as Mike suggested, it would be very interesting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>> hear
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> several
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> others who have followed distinct trajectories apart
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> phd-postdoc-assist/assoc. prof-prof, and yet made a
>>>>>> career
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> touch
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> most of what was developed in the junior (phd and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> few
>>>>>> later)
>>>>>>>>>> years.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>>>>> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> edu>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of Larry Smolucha <lsmolucha@hotmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 18 February 2018 06:20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (non)grieving scholarship
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Message from Francine Smolucha on a scholar's life
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> without
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> academia
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are other jobs that pay well (sometimes with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tenure
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> early retirement benefits) - besides professorships
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>> four
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> year colleges
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> universities.  Administrative and support staff
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> positions
>>>>>>> pay
>>>>>>>>>> well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't overlook community colleges, technical
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> colleges,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> public
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> grade
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> schools and high schools. There is also the private
>>>>>> sector
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> government
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jobs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As a 'low status' community college professor, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> managed
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> translate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Vygotsky's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> overlooked writings on creativity (back in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1980's)
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> introduced
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> theory of creativity to academia.  I got early
>>>>>> retirement at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> age 53
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> continue to write and publish. While my Ph.D from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the University of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chicago
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gave me academic bona fides, it was the quality of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the scholarly
>>>>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ultimately mattered.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was always inspired by the harsh circumstances of
>>>>>>> Vygotsky's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> life
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how he still kept on writing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [When I felt really sorry for myself, I would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually
>>>>>> say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Well at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> least
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not coughing up blood"]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So many of his works were not published in his
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lifetime,
>>>>>> he
>>>>>>>> did
>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> collect a royalties check, and    they say he was
>>>>>> depressed
>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> end
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> his life.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I leave you with this quote from an ancient Sufi
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mystic -
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You can't always get what you want but you can get
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>>>>> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> edu>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2018 7:07 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (non)grieving scholarship
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yours is a quandary shared by your generation, Alfredo.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Being allowed to teach and conduct research in a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quality institution
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> great privilege and an increasingly rarer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibility.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are several people on this list who have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> organized
>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lives
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> independent scholars while staying connected to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> core institutions of disciplinary
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> training.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It might be nice to hear the variety out there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It appears pretty certain that the situation is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to
>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worse before/if it gets better.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What can the collective experience of xmca come up
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> useful to the many
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of you caught in this meat grinder?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mike
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Feb 17, 2018 at 4:49 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good luck then, Wagner!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> edu
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of Wagner Luiz Schmit <
>>>>>> wagner.schmit@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 18 February 2018 01:07
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture Activity
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (non)grieving scholarship
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This just hit me in the spot...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wagner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 17, 2018 9:48 PM, "Alfredo Jornet Gil"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have not been able to contribute to this list as
>>>>>> much as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd
>>>>>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lately, among other things, because I need to find
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>> job,
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make sure that I have checked all those boxes that
>>>>>>> selection
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> committees
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will check (enough first-authored publications? in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good enough
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> journals?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enough leadership in projects? teaching? supervising?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> acquiring
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> funds?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than all others candidates? and more than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> favoured-for-whatever-other-
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reasons
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> candidates?). So I have been doing all I can these
>>>>>> weeks
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fill
>>>>>>>>>>>>> up
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> competitive CV, for my contract is about to expire.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And, although I did not think that it was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> particularly
>>>>>>> well
>>>>>>>>>>>>> written,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was both relieving and discouraging to read this
>>>>>> article
>>>>>>>> (see
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> link
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> below,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which I take from the facebook wall of a colleague
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>> also
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> subscribes this list). The article makes visible
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>> pain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> scholars
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> go
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> through when, after so many years of digging and
>>>>>> digging
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> digging a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> little (but deep!) hole, may after all have to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> leave it
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thing to do. In Canada, I met a French astronomer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> moving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> through
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the world with his lovely family, short-term
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> project
>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> short-term
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> project, getting better and better at what he
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worked on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (apparently
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> among the few who had expertise in computer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> modeling simulating
>>>>>>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> astronomic events) , and finally having to step
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out
>>>>>>> academia
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> last
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> year
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> find something else to do, for his family no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> longer
>>>>>> could
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stand
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> constant uncertainty and travelling. It could be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>> soon.
>>>>>>>> And
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be a bad thing, or even a thing in itself, but the
>>>>>> story
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seems to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> endemic to academia and may be interesting to some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>> you:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.chronicle.com/article/Why-Everybody-Lo
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ses-
>>>>>>>> When/24
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2560
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Assistant Professor
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Department of Anthropology
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602
>>>>>>>>>>>>> WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>>>>>>>>>> Assistant Professor
>>>>>>>>>> Department of Anthropology
>>>>>>>>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
>>>>>>>>>> Brigham Young University
>>>>>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602
>>>>>>>>>> WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu
>>>>>>>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>>>>>>> Assistant Professor
>>>>>>> Department of Anthropology
>>>>>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
>>>>>>> Brigham Young University
>>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602
>>>>>>> WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu
>>>>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>>>>> Assistant Professor
>>>>> Department of Anthropology
>>>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
>>>>> Brigham Young University
>>>>> Provo, UT 84602
>>>>> WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu
>>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>>>> Assistant Professor
>>>> Department of Anthropology
>>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
>>>> Brigham Young University
>>>> Provo, UT 84602
>>>> WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu
>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
>>>>
>>>>
>>> --
>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>>> Assistant Professor
>>> Department of Anthropology
>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
>>> Brigham Young University
>>> Provo, UT 84602
>>> WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu
>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
>>>

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