[Xmca-l] Re: Object of activity (was: Swedish activist Elon Ersson wins the day)
Andy Blunden
andyb@marxists.org
Thu Jul 26 19:45:29 PDT 2018
Thank you for providing that text, Huw. For my point of
view, this paper simply goes from confusion to even deeper
confusion. It is basically a reconciliation of CHAT with
what Vygotsky called "analysis by elements" not units. --
"The main units of activity analysis are mental or cognitive
and behavioural actions." Psychology as a branch of engineering.
An interesting illustration of Julian's observation about
the "slipperiness" of concepts of object in that Bedny
insists on translating /predmet /as 'subject'. I could not
count of how many times I have read about translating
/predmet/ as 'object' in Leontyevian AT. Just as translators
of Marx render /Arbeitsgegenstand /as "subject of labour" in
translating Capital, but render /Gegenstand /as "object" in
translating Theses on Feuerbach. This is no-one's "fault" -
it's in the nature of the concepts. :)
I don't wish to go on, Huw. This current of AT is new to me
and I am unaware of coming across any supporters of it
before now.
Andy
------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Blunden
http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
On 27/07/2018 7:14 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote:
> Some of the content of the following paper (also attached)
> looks similar to the previous chapter I mentioned, I have
> merely scanned relevant sections.
>
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/261878261_Applicat_Basic_Terminolgy
>
> Having a moving target is compatible, Julian. Although one
> should bear in mind that SSAT is concerned with
> technicalities addressing measuring systems of
> performance, ergonomics etc.
>
> Best,
> Huw
>
> On 26 July 2018 at 16:54, Julian Williams
> <julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk
> <mailto:julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk>> wrote:
>
> Andy/Huw and all
>
>
>
> Elin (sorry I put Elon by mistake in my original) went
> to the airport to rescue a young refugee from
> deportation… I guess this was a coordinated effort by
> her refugee campaign group who would have helped her
> plan, buy the ticket, etc (and the Americans would
> have dragged them off and sent the lot to guantanamo
> bay on conspiracy charges … ?) but in fact she found a
> different, older refugee was being deported (the young
> man they expected to be there having been deported on
> a different route). So she did not fulfil her*initial*
> intended conscious goal, but something happened during
> the activity and she still did get a refugee off the
> plane and appear to win the day. The initial goal was
> not achieved, but a new goal developed during the
> activity… that made complete sense within the activity
> context. The activity was not just about the young man
> (or the old guy) … obviously.
>
>
>
> Ultimately, anyway, probably (like the workers’
> struggles Andy mentions) this older refugee will also
> be deported at a later date. A loss then, because even
> the amended goal (to rescue him, and save his life)
> will be undone, but it would still be right to say
> that the action/activity was successful, because the
> campaign continues more strongly, and many people know
> better what is going on ‘in our name’ than did before.
>
>
>
> The idea of goals and motives developing in activity
> is an important one (in any terminology) and I think
> Leontiev affords that by making the distinction (and
> offering a potential contradiction) between individual
> conscious acts (related to ‘goals’) and the
> object-motive of collective activity (which rarely
> aligns with the conscious goals of many of the acting
> subjects jointly engaged). A student may study the
> text because it is required for the exam (eg a history
> text), but become interested in it for the sake,
> developing a new social motive of the wider
> history-object (to make sure history doesn’t repeat
> itself!)
>
>
>
> What is not clear in Leontiev, I think, is that
> actions sometimes have conscious goals/motives at
> several levels: I think Elin knew what she was doing
> in the Particular case, but also acted consciously
> with a Universal principle in mind … this might help
> explain how she is so easily able to change the
> particular goal in line with the more general
> principle. And winning a bunch of passengers on that
> particular flight was an important moment – the
> football team that stood up also and maybe was
> supportively refusing to sit down , it is a symbol for
> footballers everywhere - while technology linked that
> to a worldwide movement.
>
>
>
> On the Object: I find in English language texts (which
> is all I can read) that the conception of Object is
> very slippery, yes: a lot has been written about this
> on xmca in the past. But I quite like this
> slipperiness, because it more suits a dialectic, where
> the ‘thing’ being worked on changes/develops over time
> and space, and over the consciousnesses of the many
> subjects working on it.
>
>
>
> But if someone could help nail all this down
> conceptually I think it would help clarify a lot of us.
>
>
>
> Julian
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *<xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> on behalf of
> Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org
> <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>>
> *Reply-To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
> *Date: *Thursday, 26 July 2018 at 14:55
> *To: *"xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>"
> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Object of activity (was:
> Swedish activist Elon Ersson wins the day)
>
>
>
> Sure, the terminology is so variable, it is the
> meaning not the word which must be paid attention to.
> But it is not about *multiple* goals, or *plurality*.
> The crucial distinction, the distinction which is
> constitutive of consciousness, is the "task goal" and
> the reason for the task. That's a definite "two-ness."
> Though, this does not rule out "plurality."
>
> a
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Andy Blunden
> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
> <http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm>
>
> On 26/07/2018 11:46 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote:
>
> In this terminology the object is simply the
> artefact pertaining to the activity. I doubt very
> much whether there is alignment with Engestrom
> other than potentially some basic referents.
>
>
>
> As I said, the terms do not change my own system
> of relations. I simply bow to a custom articulated
> by a Russian speaker with a long history in the
> tradition of activity theory.
>
>
>
> On the matter of multiple goals, this is not
> ambiguous to the degree that it reflects the
> nesting that takes place in such activity, i.e.
> the plurality is authentic.
>
>
>
> If you wish to engage any thinking in the matter,
> I suggest you'd be better off starting from
> Gregory Bedny's chapter. I'll email Gregory to see
> if he is willing to share the chapter.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Huw
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 26 July 2018 at 11:28, Andy Blunden
> <andyb@marxists.org <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>>
> wrote:
>
> So "object" in your sense, the same sense in
> which Engestrom uses "object." This is
> something quite different from "goal" in
> Leontyev's sense, which is what the subject
> intends to transform the object into. Except
> that that concept of "goal" (intention) does
> not exist in Engestrom's system, only
> "outcome", which is clearly not the same thing
> as "goal" because things don't always go as
> intended. But from what I gather of "according
> to the activity goal", the "activity goal" is
> what Leontyev called the "motivation" - the
> reason for doing something. What you (and
> Engestrom) are calling "object" is like what
> Marx refers to as /Arbeitsgegenstand /- or
> "object of labour" (the "something" in your
> quote) whose form is changed. I think that's
> the Russian /predmet/. Fair enough.
>
> So you are contrasting "task goal" and "goal
> of activity". Fair enough, but isn't it
> confusing to use "goal" for both? That means
> you can never use the word "goal" without
> qualifying it as the "task goal" or the "goal
> of activity".
>
> Andy
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Andy Blunden
> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
> <http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm>
>
>
> On 26/07/2018 7:13 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote:
>
> Since my original endeavours I have
> switched to referring to the task goal or
> goal of activity, in conformance with
> Bedny et al's terminology. Personally this
> does not change my systemic formulations,
> but it does seem to point to holes in
> others', whilst reducing ambiguity.
>
> "An object of activity that can be
> material or mental (symbols, images, etc.)
> is something that can be modified by a
> subject according to the activity goal
> (Bedny and Karwowski, 2007; Leont’ev,
> 1981; Rubinshtein, 1957; Zinchenko,
> 1995)." Bedny (2015, p. 91)
>
>
>
> This is from the chapter "Basic Concepts
> and Terminology" which offers further
> elaboration (ref below).
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Huw
>
>
>
> Bedny, G. Z. (2015) /Application of
> Systemic-Structural Activity Theory to
> Design and Training/. Boca Raton: CRC Press
>
>
>
> On 26 July 2018 at 02:54, Andy Blunden
> <andyb@marxists.org
> <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>> wrote:
>
> ... to continue this dialogue on
> winning and losing, a now-departed
> friend who was a writer once commented
> to me after we had together watched an
> inspiring play performed by Melbourne
> Workers' Theatre, that for the working
> class *every* struggle, every story of
> victory, ends in defeat, simply
> because the object of the workers'
> movement lies if at all in the future;
> the road to socialism is a series of
> small victories followed by defeats.
> Until .... So Elon is acting in a fine
> tradition.
>
> The distinction between goal and
> object (by whatever names) was
> relevant for the recent xmca
> discussion around the Brazilian social
> movements, which kept popping up with
> different goals, but, one suspects,
> shared a common object.
>
> Andy
>
> PS. For the distinction between goal
> and object, I rely on A N Leonytev's
> succinct definition of action:
> "Processes, the object and motive of
> which do not coincide with one
> another, we shall call ‘actions’." but
> choice of words for object, goal, aim,
> motive, etc., is problematic. I have
> chosen "object" for what Hegel calls
> "Intention" and Leontyev calls
> "motivation" and "goal" for what ANL
> calls "object" in the above quote.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Andy Blunden
> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
> <http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm>
>
>
> On 25/07/2018 10:21 PM, Andy Blunden
> wrote:
>
> She achieved her goal. Her object
> will take longer to realise.
> Important to recognise the difference.
>
> Andy
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Andy Blunden
> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
> <http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm>
>
>
> On 25/07/2018 10:18 PM, Julian
> Williams wrote:
>
> Andy
>
>
>
> She wins and yet she doesn’t –
> the guy she went to ‘rescue’
> was deported on another
> flight, but she got the
> support of people on the plane
> (some even joined her protest)
> and is being applauded by
> millions worldwide now: this
> is a growing aspect of
> resistance activism, losing
> and winning.
>
>
>
> And the battle against
> deportations, and indeed
> fascism, in Sweden and
> elsewhere continues….
>
>
>
> Julian
>
>
>
> *From: *<
> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd
> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd>.edu>
> on behalf of Andy Blunden
> <andyb@marxists.org>
> <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>
> *Reply-To: *"eXtended Mind,
> Culture, Activity"
> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Date: *Wednesday, 25 July
> 2018 at 13:11
> *To:
> *"xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu"
> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re:
> Swedish activist Elon Ersson
> wins the day
>
>
>
> Yes, you can see the stress on
> his young women's face and she
> stands strong under enormous
> pressure and she wins. Wonderful!
>
> andy
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Andy Blunden
> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>
>
> On 25/07/2018 10:07 PM, Julian
> Williams wrote:
>
> I think you and xmca may
> like this:
>
>
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/25/swedish-student-plane-protest-stops-mans-deportation-afghanistan
>
>
>
> ☺
>
>
>
> Julian
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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