[Xmca-l] Re: Object of activity (was: Swedish activist Elon Ersson wins the day)

Andy Blunden andyb@marxists.org
Thu Jul 26 19:45:29 PDT 2018


Thank you for providing that text, Huw. For my point of
view, this paper simply goes from confusion to even deeper
confusion. It is basically a reconciliation of CHAT with
what Vygotsky called "analysis by elements" not units.  -- 
"The main units of activity analysis are mental or cognitive
and behavioural actions." Psychology as a branch of engineering.

An interesting illustration of Julian's observation about
the "slipperiness" of concepts of object in that Bedny
insists on translating /predmet /as 'subject'. I could not
count of how many times I have read about translating
/predmet/ as 'object' in Leontyevian AT. Just as translators
of Marx render /Arbeitsgegenstand /as "subject of labour" in
translating Capital, but render /Gegenstand /as "object" in
translating Theses on Feuerbach. This is no-one's "fault" -
it's in the nature of the concepts. :)

I don't wish to go on, Huw. This current of AT is new to me
and I am unaware of coming across any supporters of it
before now.

Andy

------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Blunden
http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
On 27/07/2018 7:14 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote:
> Some of the content of the following paper (also attached)
> looks similar to the previous chapter I mentioned, I have
> merely scanned relevant sections.
>
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/261878261_Applicat_Basic_Terminolgy
>
> Having a moving target is compatible, Julian. Although one
> should bear in mind that SSAT is concerned with
> technicalities addressing measuring systems of
> performance, ergonomics etc.
>
> Best,
> Huw
>
> On 26 July 2018 at 16:54, Julian Williams
> <julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk
> <mailto:julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk>> wrote:
>
>     Andy/Huw and all
>
>      
>
>     Elin (sorry I put Elon by mistake in my original) went
>     to the airport to rescue a young refugee from
>     deportation…  I guess this was a coordinated effort by
>     her refugee campaign group who would have helped her
>     plan, buy the ticket, etc (and the Americans would
>     have dragged them off and sent the lot to guantanamo
>     bay on conspiracy charges … ?) but in fact she found a
>     different, older refugee was being deported (the young
>     man they expected to be there having been deported on
>     a different route). So she did not fulfil her*initial*
>     intended conscious goal, but something happened during
>     the activity and she still did get a refugee off the
>     plane and appear to win the day. The initial goal was
>     not achieved, but a new goal developed during the
>     activity… that made complete sense within the activity
>     context. The activity was not just about the young man
>     (or the old guy) …  obviously.
>
>      
>
>     Ultimately, anyway, probably (like the workers’
>     struggles Andy mentions) this older refugee will also
>     be deported at a later date. A loss then, because even
>     the amended goal (to rescue him, and save his life)
>     will be undone, but it would still be right to say
>     that the action/activity was successful, because the
>     campaign continues more strongly, and many people know
>     better what is going on ‘in our name’ than did before.
>
>      
>
>     The idea of goals and motives developing in activity
>     is an important one (in any terminology) and I think
>     Leontiev affords that by making the distinction (and
>     offering a potential contradiction) between individual
>     conscious acts (related to ‘goals’) and the
>     object-motive of collective activity (which rarely
>     aligns with the conscious goals of many of the acting
>     subjects jointly engaged). A student may study the
>     text because it is required for the exam (eg a history
>     text), but become interested in it for the sake,
>     developing a new social motive of the wider
>     history-object (to make sure history doesn’t repeat
>     itself!)
>
>      
>
>     What is not clear in Leontiev, I think, is that
>     actions sometimes have conscious goals/motives at
>     several levels: I think Elin knew what she was doing
>     in the Particular case, but also acted consciously
>     with a Universal principle in mind … this might help
>     explain how she is so easily able to change the
>     particular goal in line with the more general
>     principle.  And winning a bunch of passengers on that
>     particular flight was an important moment – the
>     football team that stood up also and maybe was
>     supportively refusing to sit down , it is a symbol for
>     footballers everywhere -  while technology linked that
>     to a worldwide movement.
>
>      
>
>     On the Object: I find in English language texts (which
>     is all I can read) that the conception of Object is
>     very slippery, yes: a lot has been written about this
>     on xmca in the past. But I quite like this
>     slipperiness, because it more suits a dialectic, where
>     the ‘thing’ being worked on changes/develops over time
>     and space, and over the consciousnesses of the many
>     subjects working on it.
>
>      
>
>     But if someone could help nail all this down
>     conceptually I think it would help clarify a lot of us.
>
>      
>
>     Julian
>
>      
>
>      
>
>     *From: *<xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>     <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> on behalf of
>     Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org
>     <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>>
>     *Reply-To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
>     <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>     *Date: *Thursday, 26 July 2018 at 14:55
>     *To: *"xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>     <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>"
>     <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>     *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Object of activity (was:
>     Swedish activist Elon Ersson wins the day)
>
>      
>
>     Sure, the terminology is so variable, it is the
>     meaning not the word which must be paid attention to.
>     But it is not about *multiple* goals, or *plurality*.
>     The crucial distinction, the distinction which is
>     constitutive of consciousness, is the "task goal" and
>     the reason for the task. That's a definite "two-ness."
>     Though, this does not rule out "plurality."
>
>     a
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     Andy Blunden
>     http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>     <http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm>
>
>     On 26/07/2018 11:46 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote:
>
>         In this terminology the object is simply the
>         artefact pertaining to the activity. I doubt very
>         much whether there is alignment with Engestrom
>         other than potentially some basic referents.
>
>          
>
>         As I said, the terms do not change my own system
>         of relations. I simply bow to a custom articulated
>         by a Russian speaker with a long history in the
>         tradition of activity theory.
>
>          
>
>         On the matter of multiple goals, this is not
>         ambiguous to the degree that it reflects the
>         nesting that takes place in such activity, i.e.
>         the plurality is authentic.
>
>          
>
>         If you wish to engage any thinking in the matter,
>         I suggest you'd be better off starting from
>         Gregory Bedny's chapter. I'll email Gregory to see
>         if he is willing to share the chapter.
>
>          
>
>         Best,
>
>         Huw
>
>          
>
>          
>
>          
>
>          
>
>         On 26 July 2018 at 11:28, Andy Blunden
>         <andyb@marxists.org <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>>
>         wrote:
>
>             So "object" in your sense, the same sense in
>             which Engestrom uses "object." This is
>             something quite different from "goal" in
>             Leontyev's sense, which is what the subject
>             intends to transform the object into. Except
>             that that concept of "goal" (intention) does
>             not exist in Engestrom's system, only
>             "outcome", which is clearly not the same thing
>             as "goal" because things don't always go as
>             intended. But from what I gather of "according
>             to the activity goal", the "activity goal" is
>             what Leontyev called the "motivation" - the
>             reason for doing something. What you (and
>             Engestrom) are calling "object" is like what
>             Marx refers to as /Arbeitsgegenstand /- or
>             "object of labour" (the "something" in your
>             quote) whose form is changed. I think that's
>             the Russian /predmet/. Fair enough.
>
>             So you are contrasting "task goal" and "goal
>             of activity". Fair enough, but isn't it
>             confusing to use "goal" for both? That means
>             you can never use the word "goal" without
>             qualifying it as the "task goal" or the "goal
>             of activity".
>
>             Andy
>
>             ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>             Andy Blunden
>             http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>             <http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm>
>
>
>             On 26/07/2018 7:13 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote:
>
>                 Since my original endeavours I have
>                 switched to referring to the task goal or
>                 goal of activity, in conformance with
>                 Bedny et al's terminology. Personally this
>                 does not change my systemic formulations,
>                 but it does seem to point to holes in
>                 others', whilst reducing ambiguity.
>
>                 "An object of activity that can be
>                 material or mental (symbols, images, etc.)
>                 is something that can be modified by a
>                 subject according to the activity goal
>                 (Bedny and Karwowski, 2007; Leont’ev,
>                 1981; Rubinshtein, 1957; Zinchenko,
>                 1995)." Bedny (2015, p. 91)
>
>                  
>
>                 This is from the chapter "Basic Concepts
>                 and Terminology" which offers further
>                 elaboration (ref below).
>
>                  
>
>                 Best,
>
>                 Huw
>
>                  
>
>                 Bedny, G. Z. (2015) /Application of
>                 Systemic-Structural Activity Theory to
>                 Design and Training/. Boca Raton: CRC Press
>
>                  
>
>                 On 26 July 2018 at 02:54, Andy Blunden
>                 <andyb@marxists.org
>                 <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>> wrote:
>
>                     ... to continue this dialogue on
>                     winning and losing, a now-departed
>                     friend who was a writer once commented
>                     to me after we had together watched an
>                     inspiring play performed by Melbourne
>                     Workers' Theatre, that for the working
>                     class *every* struggle, every story of
>                     victory, ends in defeat, simply
>                     because the object of the workers'
>                     movement lies if at all in the future;
>                     the road to socialism is a series of
>                     small victories followed by defeats.
>                     Until .... So Elon is acting in a fine
>                     tradition.
>
>                     The distinction between goal and
>                     object (by whatever names) was
>                     relevant for the recent xmca
>                     discussion around the Brazilian social
>                     movements, which kept popping up with
>                     different goals, but, one suspects,
>                     shared a common object.
>
>                     Andy
>
>                     PS. For the distinction between goal
>                     and object, I rely on A N Leonytev's
>                     succinct definition of action:
>                     "Processes, the object and motive of
>                     which do not coincide with one
>                     another, we shall call ‘actions’." but
>                     choice of words for object, goal, aim,
>                     motive, etc., is problematic. I have
>                     chosen "object" for what Hegel calls
>                     "Intention" and Leontyev calls
>                     "motivation" and "goal" for what ANL
>                     calls "object" in the above quote.
>
>                     ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>                     Andy Blunden
>                     http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>                     <http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm>
>
>
>                     On 25/07/2018 10:21 PM, Andy Blunden
>                     wrote:
>
>                         She achieved her goal. Her object
>                         will take longer to realise.
>                         Important to recognise the difference.
>
>                         Andy
>
>                         ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>                         Andy Blunden
>                         http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>                         <http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm>
>
>
>                         On 25/07/2018 10:18 PM, Julian
>                         Williams wrote:
>
>                             Andy
>
>                              
>
>                             She wins and yet she doesn’t –
>                             the guy she went to ‘rescue’
>                             was deported on another
>                             flight, but she got the
>                             support of people on the plane
>                             (some even joined her protest)
>                             and is being applauded by
>                             millions worldwide now: this
>                             is a growing aspect of
>                             resistance activism, losing
>                             and winning.
>
>                              
>
>                             And the battle against
>                             deportations, and indeed
>                             fascism, in Sweden and
>                             elsewhere continues….
>
>                              
>
>                             Julian  
>
>                              
>
>                             *From: *<
>                             <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd
>                             <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd>.edu>
>                             on behalf of Andy Blunden
>                             <andyb@marxists.org>
>                             <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>
>                             *Reply-To: *"eXtended Mind,
>                             Culture, Activity"
>                             <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>                             <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>                             *Date: *Wednesday, 25 July
>                             2018 at 13:11
>                             *To:
>                             *"xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu"
>                             <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>                             <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>                             <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>                             *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re:
>                             Swedish activist Elon Ersson
>                             wins the day
>
>                              
>
>                             Yes, you can see the stress on
>                             his young women's face and she
>                             stands strong under enormous
>                             pressure and she wins. Wonderful!
>
>                             andy
>
>                             ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>                             Andy Blunden
>                             http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>
>
>                             On 25/07/2018 10:07 PM, Julian
>                             Williams wrote:
>
>                                 I think you and xmca may
>                                 like this:
>
>                                  
>
>                                 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/25/swedish-student-plane-protest-stops-mans-deportation-afghanistan
>
>                                  
>
>>
>                                  
>
>                                 Julian
>
>                              
>
>                          
>
>                      
>
>                  
>
>              
>
>          
>
>
>
>

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