[Xmca-l] Re: Object of activity (was: Swedish activist Elon Ersson wins the day)

Andy Blunden andyb@marxists.org
Thu Jul 26 06:53:30 PDT 2018


Sure, the terminology is so variable, it is the meaning not
the word which must be paid attention to. But it is not
about *multiple* goals, or *plurality*. The crucial
distinction, the distinction which is constitutive of
consciousness, is the "task goal" and the reason for the
task. That's a definite "two-ness." Though, this does not
rule out "plurality."

a

------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Blunden
http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
On 26/07/2018 11:46 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote:
> In this terminology the object is simply the artefact
> pertaining to the activity. I doubt very much whether
> there is alignment with Engestrom other than potentially
> some basic referents.
>
> As I said, the terms do not change my own system of
> relations. I simply bow to a custom articulated by a
> Russian speaker with a long history in the tradition of
> activity theory.
>
> On the matter of multiple goals, this is not ambiguous to
> the degree that it reflects the nesting that takes place
> in such activity, i.e. the plurality is authentic.
>
> If you wish to engage any thinking in the matter, I
> suggest you'd be better off starting from Gregory Bedny's
> chapter. I'll email Gregory to see if he is willing to
> share the chapter.
>
> Best,
> Huw
>
>
>
>
> On 26 July 2018 at 11:28, Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org
> <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>> wrote:
>
>     So "object" in your sense, the same sense in which
>     Engestrom uses "object." This is something quite
>     different from "goal" in Leontyev's sense, which is
>     what the subject intends to transform the object into.
>     Except that that concept of "goal" (intention) does
>     not exist in Engestrom's system, only "outcome", which
>     is clearly not the same thing as "goal" because things
>     don't always go as intended. But from what I gather of
>     "according to the activity goal", the "activity goal"
>     is what Leontyev called the "motivation" - the reason
>     for doing something. What you (and Engestrom) are
>     calling "object" is like what Marx refers to as
>     /Arbeitsgegenstand /- or "object of labour" (the
>     "something" in your quote) whose form is changed. I
>     think that's the Russian /predmet/. Fair enough.
>
>     So you are contrasting "task goal" and "goal of
>     activity". Fair enough, but isn't it confusing to use
>     "goal" for both? That means you can never use the word
>     "goal" without qualifying it as the "task goal" or the
>     "goal of activity".
>
>     Andy
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------
>     Andy Blunden
>     http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>     <http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm>
>     On 26/07/2018 7:13 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote:
>>     Since my original endeavours I have switched to
>>     referring to the task goal or goal of activity, in
>>     conformance with Bedny et al's terminology.
>>     Personally this does not change my systemic
>>     formulations, but it does seem to point to holes in
>>     others', whilst reducing ambiguity.
>>
>>     "An object of activity that can be material or mental
>>     (symbols, images, etc.) is something that can be
>>     modified by a subject according to the activity goal
>>     (Bedny and Karwowski, 2007; Leont’ev, 1981;
>>     Rubinshtein, 1957; Zinchenko, 1995)." Bedny (2015, p. 91)
>>
>>     This is from the chapter "Basic Concepts and
>>     Terminology" which offers further elaboration (ref
>>     below).
>>
>>     Best,
>>     Huw
>>
>>     Bedny, G. Z. (2015) /Application of
>>     Systemic-Structural Activity Theory to Design and
>>     Training/. Boca Raton: CRC Press
>>
>>     On 26 July 2018 at 02:54, Andy Blunden
>>     <andyb@marxists.org <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>> wrote:
>>
>>         ... to continue this dialogue on winning and
>>         losing, a now-departed friend who was a writer
>>         once commented to me after we had together
>>         watched an inspiring play performed by Melbourne
>>         Workers' Theatre, that for the working class
>>         *every* struggle, every story of victory, ends in
>>         defeat, simply because the object of the workers'
>>         movement lies if at all in the future; the road
>>         to socialism is a series of small victories
>>         followed by defeats. Until .... So Elon is acting
>>         in a fine tradition.
>>
>>         The distinction between goal and object (by
>>         whatever names) was relevant for the recent xmca
>>         discussion around the Brazilian social movements,
>>         which kept popping up with different goals, but,
>>         one suspects, shared a common object.
>>
>>         Andy
>>
>>         PS. For the distinction between goal and object,
>>         I rely on A N Leonytev's succinct definition of
>>         action: "Processes, the object and motive of
>>         which do not coincide with one another, we shall
>>         call ‘actions’." but choice of words for object,
>>         goal, aim, motive, etc., is problematic. I have
>>         chosen "object" for what Hegel calls "Intention"
>>         and Leontyev calls "motivation" and "goal" for
>>         what ANL calls "object" in the above quote.
>>
>>         ------------------------------------------------------------
>>         Andy Blunden
>>         http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>>         <http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm>
>>         On 25/07/2018 10:21 PM, Andy Blunden wrote:
>>>
>>>         She achieved her goal. Her object will take
>>>         longer to realise. Important to recognise the
>>>         difference.
>>>
>>>         Andy
>>>
>>>         ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>         Andy Blunden
>>>         http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>>>         <http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm>
>>>         On 25/07/2018 10:18 PM, Julian Williams wrote:
>>>>
>>>>         Andy
>>>>
>>>>          
>>>>
>>>>         She wins and yet she doesn’t – the guy she went
>>>>         to ‘rescue’ was deported on another flight, but
>>>>         she got the support of people on the plane
>>>>         (some even joined her protest) and is being
>>>>         applauded by millions worldwide now: this is a
>>>>         growing aspect of resistance activism, losing
>>>>         and winning.
>>>>
>>>>          
>>>>
>>>>         And the battle against deportations, and indeed
>>>>         fascism, in Sweden and elsewhere continues….
>>>>
>>>>          
>>>>
>>>>         Julian  
>>>>
>>>>          
>>>>
>>>>         *From: *<
>>>>         <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd
>>>>         <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd>.edu> on
>>>>         behalf of Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org>
>>>>         <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>
>>>>         *Reply-To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
>>>>         <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>>         <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>>         *Date: *Wednesday, 25 July 2018 at 13:11
>>>>         *To: *"xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu"
>>>>         <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>>         <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>>         <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>>         *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Swedish activist Elon
>>>>         Ersson wins the day
>>>>
>>>>          
>>>>
>>>>         Yes, you can see the stress on his young
>>>>         women's face and she stands strong under
>>>>         enormous pressure and she wins. Wonderful!
>>>>
>>>>         andy
>>>>
>>>>         ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>         Andy Blunden
>>>>         http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>>>>         <http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>         On 25/07/2018 10:07 PM, Julian Williams wrote:
>>>>
>>>>             I think you and xmca may like this:
>>>>
>>>>              
>>>>
>>>>             https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/25/swedish-student-plane-protest-stops-mans-deportation-afghanistan
>>>>
>>>>              
>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>              
>>>>
>>>>             Julian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

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