[Xmca-l] Re: Thank you to Peter

Fri Apr 27 10:03:04 PDT 2018

David,
The Millet/Van Gogh versions seem to also include something that is less
explicit in the Rembrandt and which seems critical but perhaps left out of
the scaffolding metaphor, namely, motivation.
What is it that the building (or walking child) is reaching for?
Without some motivation to build(/walk), no amount of scaffolding will be
of any use.
-greg
p.s. I wonder why Millet/Van Gogh have the father as the motivation. I
would have thought it more effective the other way 'round.

On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 10:55 AM, Peter Smagorinsky <smago@uga.edu> wrote:

> Just a note, in response to the various generous messages sent on this
> topic, that my article is really about pedagogical misapplications of
> scaffolding as Vygotskian, with scaffolding understood ONLY in Bruner's
> sense of explicit guidance today for tomorrow's independent learning for
> the purposes of that argument. My field is education, and in the teaching
> and learning literature, people are making this reference clearly without
> having bothering to read much, and often without having read LSV or Bruner
> directly at all. Ed psych textbooks reduce LSV to the most limited sense of
> the ZPD and to scaffolding, both wrong in my view, yet now a truism that
> may be repeated and referenced in the absence of engagement with the ideas,
> often to justify just about any teaching approach as Vygotskian. So my
> attention was solely on how educators who haven't read LSV have reduced him
> to something that I find at best tangential to his cultural-historical
> developmental project. The rest is interesting, I just want to clarify that
> I had a very specific purpose and readership for the article, not a
> comprehensive one.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@
> mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Peter Feigenbaum [Staff]
> Sent: Friday, April 27, 2018 12:44 PM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thank you to Peter
>
> What I'm about to suggest may seem far afield of the discussion that has
> taken place on this particular topic thus far, but the thought was
> triggered by Huw's mention of perspective-taking.
>
> Whenever I think about teaching and learning, I can't help but conjure up
> the ideas revealed by Arthur Reber's work on *implicit* learning. In
> contrast to didactic teaching - in this case, the conscious efforts and
> aims of the caregivers to teach the child to walk - there is the child's
> own unconscious efforts to understand the activity in which she is engaged.
> These two forms
> of cognition, one conscious and the other unconscious, are apparently at
> odds with one another.
>
> Reber considers implicit learning as "knowledge [that] is optimally
> acquired independently of conscious efforts to learn." Interestingly, when
> children and adults in his experiments were asked to divulge what they were
> thinking while they were engaged in a task involving implicit learning
> (such as learning the rules of an artificial grammar), they were largely
> unable to do so, and their task performance simultaneously suffered.
>
> For my part, I believe that both of these cognitive processes and
> perspectives are operative in social situations involving teaching and
> learning. Perhaps others would find it useful to consider these competing
> forms of learning when thinking about the zoped (or should I say zoned?).
>
> Sorry if this idea is a distraction!
>
> Peter F
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 6:59 AM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Yes, HMF as something discrete is a red herring (and more a result of
> > construing it in a categorical fashion). Better to consider it as a
> > conjoining perspective. The chalk drawing is nicely evocative of
> > different perspectives at play (what I call active orientation because
> 'perspective'
> > and 'goal' connote conscious functions in English). I am working on a
> > technical account of it all, and so have some confidence in my
> assertions.
> >
> > Best,
> > Huw
> >
> >
> >
> > On 27 April 2018 at 11:41, Peter Smagorinsky <smago@uga.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > But I suspect that walking can play a role in developing a higher
> > > mental process (psych function). A hunter walks in a way quite
> > > different from a yuppie doing a power walk, and each serves a
> > > cultural purpose. There's
> > more
> > > to the walk than just walking, I think. So yes, I do see a ZND at
> > > work
> > when
> > > learning how to walk in a goal-directed way, mediated by
> > > surroundings
> > both
> > > physical and psychological, that allow for entry into and
> > > participation
> > in
> > > a community of practice.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@
> > > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole
> > > Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2018 10:59 PM
> > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thank you to Peter
> > >
> > > Now of only walking were a higher psychological function, Peg, Peter
> > might
> > > call that a zone of nearest development!
> > >
> > > Or it might be seen as a kind of construction forest.  :-)
> > >
> > > mike
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 5:45 PM, Peg Griffin <Peg.Griffin@att.net>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Apropos of Martin's observation of walking:  Here is a slide of a
> > > > Rembrandt drawing.  I use it when starting to work with people who
> > > > are or are planning to teach young children, especially if they
> > > > are quite convinced that modeling the correct language or other
> > > > behavior is essential and pretty much all that is essentially needed.
> > > > There are a few casual notes under the slide that are just my
> > > > attempts to get them to relax into some disconcerting-for-them
> viewpoints.
> > > > Peg
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@
> > > > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Martin Packer
> > > > Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2018 7:11 PM
> > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thank you to Peter
> > > >
> > > > I was thinking something similar, Henry. This seems to me one of
> > > > those rare occasions where Vygotsky doesn’t have it quite right. I
> > > > spend quite a bit of time watching kids walking with adults,
> > > > because it’s a phenomenon I find quite fascinating. A child using
> > > > a table for support while starting to walk is quite different from
> > > > the ways that adults will actively help a child to walk,
> > > > performing functions, such as balance, that the child is not yet
> > > > capable of alone. Then, when the child *is* capable of walking
> > > > alone, the adults have to be even more
> > > > active: everyone knows that a toddler will head off in any
> > > > direction that attracts their interest: now adults need to be what
> > > > I think Bowlby
> > > called an ‘external ego.’
> > > >
> > > > Martin
> > > >
> > > > > On Apr 26, 2018, at 5:56 PM, HENRY SHONERD <hshonerd@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Peter, et. al.
> > > > > In the text from Vygotsky, the “external objects” the child is
> > > > > making
> > > > use of might be an “affordance” as per J.J. Gibson?  Something
> > > > else comes to my mind in a child learning to walk is the risk of
> > > > serious injury. Most adults would probably not knowingly let the
> > > > child risk such injury. That would be endangerment in a court of law.
> > > > > Henry
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >> On Apr 26, 2018, at 2:02 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Thanks Peter!
> > > > >> Mike
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 12:59 PM Peter Smagorinsky
> > > > >> <smago@uga.edu>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> In case anyone is interested in LSV's use of scaffolding, Rene
> > > > >>> sent me
> > > > the
> > > > >>> following. But it seems clear to me that he's not using it as
> > > > >>> Bruner
> > > > did.
> > > > >>> The scaffolding here is not designed by an adult, but rather
> > > > >>> involves a child's use of available supports. The words might
> > > > >>> be more or less the same, but the concept seems very different
> to me.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> See p. 226 of my Understanding Vygotsky (1991, with Valsiner),
> > > > >>> where I observed that Vygotsky used the scaffolding metaphor
> > > > >>> in chapter 3 of Vygotsky & Luria (Studies in the history of
> > > > >>> behaviour: Ape, primitive, man,1930, p. 202).
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> And this is the text:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Let us recall how the child gradually learns to walk. As soon
> > > > >>> as his muscles are strong enough, he begins to move about on
> > > > >>> the ground in the same primitive manner as animals, using a
> > > > >>> naturally innate mode of locomotion. He crawls on all fours;
> > > > >>> indeed one of the leading
> > > > pedologists
> > > > >>> of our day says that the very young child reminds us of a
> > > > >>> small
> > > > quadruped,
> > > > >>> rather like an “ape-like cat”. [39]That animal continues for
> > > > >>> some time
> > > > to
> > > > >>> move about in the same primitive manner; within a few months,
> > > > >>> however,
> > > > it
> > > > >>> begins to stand up on its legs: the child has started to walk.
> > > > >>> The transition to walking is usually not clear-cut. At first
> > > > >>> the child
> > > > makes
> > > > >>> use of external objects, by holding on to them: he makes his
> > > > >>> way along holding onto the edge of the bed, an adult’s hand, a
> > > > >>> chair, pulling the chair along behind him and leaning on it.
> > > > >>> In a word, his ability to
> > > > walk is
> > > > >>> not yet complete: it is in fact still surrounded, as it were,
> > > > >>> by the scaffolding of those external tools with which it was
> created.
> > > > >>> Within a month or two, however, the child grows out of that
> > > > >>> scaffolding,
> > > > discarding
> > > > >>> it, as no more external help is needed; external tools have
> > > > >>> now been replaced by newly formed internal neurodynamic
> processes.
> > > > >>> Having
> > > > developed
> > > > >>> strong legs, sufficient stability and coordination of
> > > > >>> movement, the
> > > > child
> > > > >>> has now moved into the stage of definitive walking.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > > > >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:
> > > > >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole
> > > > >>> Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2018 12:58 PM
> > > > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> > > > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thank you to Peter
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Makes good sense to me, Rob.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> I do not have the same problem with proximal that Peter does,
> > > > >>> but emphasizing the temporal ordering seems certainly right.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> With respect to scaffolding: The russian term is строительные
> > > > >>> леса
> > > > >>> - literally, "construction forests" -- think of the "scaffolding"
> > > > >>> around public buildings that block the sidewalks and are a
> > > > >>> "forest" of pipes
> > > > and
> > > > >>> boards.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Beats a gallows by a verst or two!
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> BUT, beware that Vygotsky and Luria, among others, used this
> > > > >>> very term
> > > > at
> > > > >>> times. There is interesting work by Arthur Bakkar and Anna
> > > > >>> Shvarts on
> > > > this
> > > > >>> very topic that I am hoping to get represented in MCA. Arthur
> > > > >>> has
> > > > written
> > > > >>> on this topic with empirical work in classrooms and makes a
> > > > >>> case for a broad use of the term that converges very closely
> > > > >>> with. If there is interest here, let me know, and i can post
> > > > >>> one of his
> > > papers.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> mike
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> (the guy who believes that the proper English concept is a
> > > > >>> zoped)
> > > > >>> :-)
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 3:56 AM, robsub@ariadne.org.uk<mailto:
> > > > >>> robsub@ariadne.org.uk> < robsub@ariadne.org.uk<mailto:
> > > > >>> robsub@ariadne.org.uk>> wrote:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> I just want to say thank you to Peter for introducing me to
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> "Deconflating the ZPD and instructional scaffolding".
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.
> > researchgate.net_p&d=DwIFaQ&c=aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURk
> > cqADc2guUW8IM&r=mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=
> > A0pLAA7WgwdNaLaEVN98QsUJr8_J2xw1Bxg5KM9ej2s&s=
> > WSjaQM3CNl982j1B7mkB8BvsZuf0uca_3zOIioVDXkM&e=
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> ublication/320579162_Deconflating_the_ZPD_and_instructional_
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> scaffolding_Retranslating_and_reconceiving_the_zone_of_proxi
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> mal_development_as_the_zone_of_next_development
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> I have felt for a long time that there was something not
> > > > >>>> quite right
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> about the way people conceive of both the ZPD (or, as I shall
> > > > >>>> now call
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> it, the
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> ZND) and instructional scaffolding, but lacked the expertise
> > > > >>>> to
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> analyse why. Now Peter comes and, with great authority, tells
> > > > >>>> me that
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> I was thinking along the right lines. The irony of now being
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> officially A Retired Person is that I have the leisure to
> > > > >>>> study these
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> things in the detail I needed when I was working and did not
> > > > >>>> have the
> > > > >>> time.....
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> Just a couple of random thoughts around my reading of the
> article.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> I have always felt that "scaffolding" was a misnomer, a bad
> > > > >>>> choice of
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> metaphor by those who originally coined it. The point of
> > > > >>>> scaffolding,
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> the stuff you put on buildings, is that it is inflexible. It
> > > > >>>> is
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> massive, rigid, and designed never to fall over with a worker
> > > > >>>> on
> > it.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> Although I have never quite been in tune with the idea of
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> instructional scaffolding, it has always seemed to me that
> > > > >>>> its point
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> must be flexibility - taking bits away from it must be at
> > > > >>>> least as
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> important as putting them there in the first place. So,
> > > > >>>> whenever I
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> think about instructional scaffolding, I first have to get
> > > > >>>> past the
> > > > >>> jarring metaphor. Perhaps I am too sensitive to words.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> I wonder also if the popularity of the
> > > > >>>> "assisted-learning-today,
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> independent-performance-tomorrow" model is not just
> > > > >>>> popularity with
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> teachers of teaching. Its short term focus and superficial
> > > > >>>> specificity
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> make it appear to be very measurable, which makes it popular
> > > > >>>> with
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> policy makers, especially in today's audit culture.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> The introduction of Moll and the idea of context being
> > > > >>>> crucial was
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> also very illuminating. Something else for me to examine,
> dammit.
> > > > >>>> But
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> also something that becomes obvious once it is pointed out
> > > > >>>> because
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> CHAT and the activity triangle are all about context.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> This quote from p73 gives me pause for thought too. "Assuming
> > > > >>>> that
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> instructional scaffolding will work because it is written
> > > > >>>> into a
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> lesson plan overlooks the possibility that teacher and
> > > > >>>> learner will
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> approach each other in ways that produce conflict over
> > > > >>>> product and
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> process, with the student inevitably losing. Scaffolding,
> > > > >>>> then, needs
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> to be viewed as an intensely relational process, one
> > > > >>>> requiring mutual
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> understanding and negotiation of goals and practices."
> > > > >>>> Teachers know
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> that (I would say) but policy makers, at least in this
> > > > >>>> country,
> > > don't.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> They love lesson plans and teachers are coerced into
> > > > >>>> achieving the
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> aims in the lesson plan regardless of where the lesson is
> > > > >>>> actually
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> going. The disjunction between what we know to be good
> > > > >>>> teaching on the
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> one hand, and, on the other, the requirements of neoliberal
> > > > >>>> audit
> > > > >>> culture, becomes ever more stark.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> I hope I am making sense.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
> Director,
> Office of Institutional Research
> <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
> Fordham University
> Thebaud Hall-202
> Bronx, NY 10458
>
> Phone: (718) 817-2243
> Fax: (718) 817-3817
> email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
>
>

-- 
Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor
Department of Anthropology
880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
Brigham Young University
Provo, UT 84602
WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu
http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson