[Xmca-l] Re: Bill's query

[Wolff-Michael Roth]

Here again with WMR in front of what I am saying.

Bill asked me to respond to some questions, but I could not find in my
trash can the earlier strand. Here the issues he had raised:


-------------------
Since I have bothered to read your book and quote directly from it I think
my comments deserve a public response. I'll repeat it again here:

Specifically you say that constructivists argue that: (I've *bolded* the
bits where your understanding of Piaget is different to mine)
"the individual mind is ... *informationally closed* to the surrounding
world" (51)
WMR: (von Glasersfeld said this iin the text where he also discusses
Piaget, if I remember well)

"In a constructivist account, she (Melissa) might be said to *incorrectly
'interpret'* the object ..." (51)
WMR: (this is what you typically find in constructivist research, for only
something in your mind exists for the person)

"As Piaget, modern day constructivists often characterize children's knowing
 *negatively: as lack, deficit ... or deviance* ..." (52)
WMR: (I have pointed in the past to many places where Piaget writes what a
child cannot yet do, he always uses adult reasoning as (generally implicit)
reference for characterizing the child. There was  a nice chapter in the
1980s: Meyer-Drawe, K. (1986). Zähmung eines wilden Denkens? [Taming of
undomesticated thought?] In A. Métraux & B. Waldenfels (Eds.), Leibhaftige
Vernunft: Spuren von Merleau-Pontys Denken (pp. 258–275). Munich, Germany:
Wilhelm Fink. And in Merleau-Ponty's writing you can see the critique of a
Piaget, from whom children are lesser (adults)

"In the constructivist literature , we can frequently read that *misconceptions
... have to be eradicated* (53)
WMR: (Yes, this you can find in the literature on misconceptions, with the
very verb "eradicate")

Piaget's best known observation were about conservation, the tall and wide
glasses, and I've never heard children's responses described as incorrect,
deficit or misconception but always as a stage that children have to pass
through. It always seemed me that Piaget respected and understood the
child's different view of the world.
WMR: (Well, I just did a quick check, and in *The Growth of Logical
Thinking, *the verb/noun fail/failure appears at least 50+ times, though
one would have to check the sense; the verb *cannot* appears over 60 times,
and so on...)

I gather you haven't read Papert or Minsky. I feel their version,
constructionism, contains many useful insights.
WMR: (I have, in my constructivist days, and I have read many of the books
coming from his lab [Papert], and I know many of his students personally.
And I referenced their work amply, until I saw no more benefit in that
work.)
------------------

Michael


On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 7:59 AM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
wrote:

> No, only certain kinds of markups will be sent on through the listserve.
> The lowest common denominator is ASCII. Indentation using ">" is one
> preferred style on technical forums. However, here, it may be better to
> prefix by initials.
>
> Best,
> Huw
>
> On 16 April 2018 at 15:49, Wolff-Michael Roth <wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com
> >
> wrote:
>
> > Huw, in the original, I am using the color red to add. I don't see the
> > color in the quoted text that comes after your message. Michael
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 7:45 AM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > It's not immediately clear to me who is saying what, in this email,
> > > Michael, and whether you both have agreed upon a distinction of some
> > > kind...
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Huw
> > >
> > >
> > > On 16 April 2018 at 15:05, Wolff-Michael Roth <
> > wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com
> > > >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Bill asked me to respond to some questions, but I could not find in
> my
> > > > trash can the earlier strand. Here the issues he had raised:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -------------------
> > > > Since I have bothered to read your book and quote directly from it I
> > > think
> > > > my comments deserve a public response. I'll repeat it again here:
> > > >
> > > > Specifically you say that constructivists argue that: (I've *bolded*
> > the
> > > > bits where your understanding of Piaget is different to mine)
> > > > "the individual mind is ... *informationally closed* to the
> surrounding
> > > > world" (51) (von Glasersfeld said this iin the text where he also
> > > discusses
> > > > Piaget, if I remember well)
> > > > "In a constructivist account, she (Melissa) might be said to
> > *incorrectly
> > > > 'interpret'* the object ..." (51) (this is what you typically find in
> > > > constructivist research, for only something in your mind exists for
> the
> > > > person)
> > > > "As Piaget, modern day constructivists often characterize children's
> > > > knowing
> > > >  *negatively: as lack, deficit ... or deviance* ..." (52) (I have
> > pointed
> > > > in the past to many places where Piaget writes what a child cannot
> yet
> > > do,
> > > > he always uses adult reasoning as (generally implicit) reference for
> > > > characterizing the child. There was  a nice chapter in the 1980s:
> > > > Meyer-Drawe,
> > > > K. (1986). Zähmung eines wilden Denkens? [Taming of undomesticated
> > > > thought?] In A. Métraux & B. Waldenfels (Eds.), Leibhaftige Vernunft:
> > > > Spuren von Merleau-Pontys Denken (pp. 258–275). Munich, Germany:
> > Wilhelm
> > > > Fink. And in Merleau-Ponty's writing you can see the critique of a
> > > Piaget,
> > > > from whom children are lesser (adults)
> > > > "In the constructivist literature , we can frequently read that
> > > > *misconceptions
> > > > ... have to be eradicated* (53) (Yes, this you can find in the
> > literature
> > > > on misconceptions, with the very verb "eradicate")
> > > >
> > > > Piaget's best known observation were about conservation, the tall and
> > > wide
> > > > glasses, and I've never heard children's responses described as
> > > incorrect,
> > > > deficit or misconception but always as a stage that children have to
> > pass
> > > > through. It always seemed me that Piaget respected and understood the
> > > > child's different view of the world. (Well, I just did a quick check,
> > and
> > > > in *The Growth of Logical Thinking, *the verb/noun fail/failure
> appears
> > > at
> > > > least 50+ times, though one would have to check the sense; the verb
> > > > *cannot* appears
> > > > over 60 times, and so on...)
> > > >
> > > > I gather you haven't read Papert or Minsky. I feel their version,
> > > > constructionism, contains many useful insights. (I have, in my
> > > > constructivist days, and I have read many of the books coming from
> his
> > > lab
> > > > [Papert], and I know many of his students personally. And I
> referenced
> > > > their work amply, until I saw no more benefit in that work.)
> > > > ------------------
> > > >
> > > > Michael
> > > >
> > >
> >
>