[Xmca-l] Re: Bill's query

[Wolff-Michael Roth]

Huw, in the original, I am using the color red to add. I don't see the
color in the quoted text that comes after your message. Michael

On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 7:45 AM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
wrote:

> It's not immediately clear to me who is saying what, in this email,
> Michael, and whether you both have agreed upon a distinction of some
> kind...
>
> Best,
> Huw
>
>
> On 16 April 2018 at 15:05, Wolff-Michael Roth <wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com
> >
> wrote:
>
> > Bill asked me to respond to some questions, but I could not find in my
> > trash can the earlier strand. Here the issues he had raised:
> >
> >
> > -------------------
> > Since I have bothered to read your book and quote directly from it I
> think
> > my comments deserve a public response. I'll repeat it again here:
> >
> > Specifically you say that constructivists argue that: (I've *bolded* the
> > bits where your understanding of Piaget is different to mine)
> > "the individual mind is ... *informationally closed* to the surrounding
> > world" (51) (von Glasersfeld said this iin the text where he also
> discusses
> > Piaget, if I remember well)
> > "In a constructivist account, she (Melissa) might be said to *incorrectly
> > 'interpret'* the object ..." (51) (this is what you typically find in
> > constructivist research, for only something in your mind exists for the
> > person)
> > "As Piaget, modern day constructivists often characterize children's
> > knowing
> >  *negatively: as lack, deficit ... or deviance* ..." (52) (I have pointed
> > in the past to many places where Piaget writes what a child cannot yet
> do,
> > he always uses adult reasoning as (generally implicit) reference for
> > characterizing the child. There was  a nice chapter in the 1980s:
> > Meyer-Drawe,
> > K. (1986). Zähmung eines wilden Denkens? [Taming of undomesticated
> > thought?] In A. Métraux & B. Waldenfels (Eds.), Leibhaftige Vernunft:
> > Spuren von Merleau-Pontys Denken (pp. 258–275). Munich, Germany: Wilhelm
> > Fink. And in Merleau-Ponty's writing you can see the critique of a
> Piaget,
> > from whom children are lesser (adults)
> > "In the constructivist literature , we can frequently read that
> > *misconceptions
> > ... have to be eradicated* (53) (Yes, this you can find in the literature
> > on misconceptions, with the very verb "eradicate")
> >
> > Piaget's best known observation were about conservation, the tall and
> wide
> > glasses, and I've never heard children's responses described as
> incorrect,
> > deficit or misconception but always as a stage that children have to pass
> > through. It always seemed me that Piaget respected and understood the
> > child's different view of the world. (Well, I just did a quick check, and
> > in *The Growth of Logical Thinking, *the verb/noun fail/failure appears
> at
> > least 50+ times, though one would have to check the sense; the verb
> > *cannot* appears
> > over 60 times, and so on...)
> >
> > I gather you haven't read Papert or Minsky. I feel their version,
> > constructionism, contains many useful insights. (I have, in my
> > constructivist days, and I have read many of the books coming from his
> lab
> > [Papert], and I know many of his students personally. And I referenced
> > their work amply, until I saw no more benefit in that work.)
> > ------------------
> >
> > Michael
> >
>