[Xmca-l] Re: thoughts on Mathematics of Mathematics by Wolff-Michael Roth

[Wolff-Michael Roth]

Carol,
Vygotsky was onto something when he turned from meaning to sense, which he
recognized infants to be oriented to from very early on. A theory of sense
existed before Vygotsky died (i.e. Schütz 1932), but unfortunately the
English translation is very bad (similar to the 1962 translation of
Thinking and Speech). In it, "meaning" is but one of the phases of sense
(this is what Vygotsky wrote in chapter 7).

Once you have a sense-giving field, WORDS (and other things) make sense.
(Please note, words (actions...) make sense, rather than people making
meaning....

The problem is if you think of words as things, then meaning is a thing,
and you are in a morass of intellectualism that Vygotsky attempted to
escape near the end of his life----e.g. when he defined the minimum unit /
identity of person and environment (perezhivanie)

Unfortunately he had no time to continue thinking along the lines of that
minimum unit. Indeed, others already had fleshed out such an approach by
the time Vygotsky only began thinking about it. (I am thinking of the
contemporary triad  Dewey, Mead, and Whitehead)

Michael

On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 5:29 AM, Carol Macdonald <carolmacdon@gmail.com>
wrote:

> These are two interesting points:
>
> I think the construction metaphor breaks down when you look at our species
> becoming human. So before there was culture, before we used tools, where
> were those tools for constructing anything of the likes that
> constructivists say that we use to construct?
>
>
>
> *How can a hominid construct"meaning" of the branch as tool to start
> digging for roots or fishing fortermites? *
>
> Surely there was a developing "awareness" that this was a useful way of
> getting food. The notion of branch as tool would only be required much
> later.
>
>
>
> *And how do they construct meaning of the first sound-words whenthey do not
> have a system that would serve as material and tool forbuilding anything
> like "meaning? *
>
> As far as we can reconstruct,  facial expression, pointing/gestures are
> precursors of words. They too are ways of getting things done - in this
> case, ways of getting other people to do things.
>
> In the way you put these two points, meaning is emergent. It emerges
> socially.
>
> I don't know if that helps.
>
> Carol
>
> On 11 April 2018 at 13:57, Wolff-Michael Roth <wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com
> >
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Bill,
> > it is not so much "socially constructed." My key point in the book is
> that
> > it is social BEFORE there can be any construction. It is social, and this
> > is where I refer to a Vygotsky that has not been taken up, because "every
> > higher psychological function ... was a social relation between two
> > people." That is, in this specific case, mathematics is social, was the
> > relation between two people before you see it in individuals...
> >
> > I think the construction metaphor breaks down when you look at our
> species
> > becoming human. So before there was culture, before we used tools, where
> > were those tools for constructing anything of the likes that
> > constructivists say that we use to construct? How can a hominid construct
> > "meaning" of the branch as tool to start digging for roots or fishing for
> > termites? And how do they construct meaning of the first sound-words when
> > they do not have a system that would serve as material and tool for
> > building anything like "meaning?"
> >
> > So yes, a learning theory has to be able to explain learning from before
> > culture (phylogenesis), before language and meaning (ontogenesis).
> >
> > And about eclecticism---I think we would be a step further if we listened
> > to and pondered A.N. Leont'ev's complaint about the "eclectic soup
> > [eklekticheskoj pokhlebke] ... each to his own recipe" that psychologists
> > are trying to cook (in his foreword to *Activity. Consciousness.
> > Personality*).
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Michael
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 10, 2018 at 7:15 PM, Bill Kerr <billkerr@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > One interpretation of Vygotsky (Wolff-Michael Roth) argues that all
> > > knowledge is socially constructed and that ethnomethodology, paying
> > > detailed attention in the now, is the best or only way of detecting and
> > > evaluating what is going on . Human activity can’t be reduced to
> > individual
> > > actions. Anything individual originates in the social, be it words,
> > > mathematics or by implication computer science (mentioned not in the
> > > original but because it is a current interest of mine). Moreover
> internal
> > > representations or schemas seem to be denied because that would be a
> > > capitulation to dualism, emphasising brain / mind activity whereas the
> > real
> > > deal is an integrated thinking body.
> > >
> > > This world view is critical of other learning theories be they
> > > behaviourist, cognitivist, enactivist or constructivist.
> > >
> > > The question that I want to explore here is the pragmatic one of
> whether
> > > and how learning theory (an abstraction) makes a difference in
> practice,
> > > for busy, hard working (usually overworked) teachers. An alternative
> > > epistemology/ies which might appeal more in practice to real teachers
> > under
> > > pressure is an eclectic one centred around the issue of “what works”.
> > >
> > > I believe I am better read on learning theory than most teachers. See
> > > http://learningevolves.wikispaces.com/learning%20theories
> > >
> > > Up until now I've developed an eclectic / pragmatic approach to putting
> > > learning theory into practice. Take something from Seymour Papert's
> > > constructionism, something from Dan Willingham's cognitivism, something
> > > from Dan Dennett's behaviourism, something from Andy Clarke’s
> enactivism
> > > and roll them altogether in an eclectic mix. The authors in this list
> > could
> > > be multiplied. My underlying belief was that it was not possible to
> > develop
> > > a unified learning theory, that human learning was too complex for
> that.
> > As
> > > Marvin Minsky once said in 'Society of Mind', "the trick is there is no
> > > trick", I think meaning no overarching way in which human's learn.
> > >
> > > One big surprise in reading Wolff-Michael Roth is his serious attempt
> to
> > > put an end to such eclectism and develop what appears to be a unfied
> > > learning theory.
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Carol A Macdonald Ph.D (Edin)
> Cultural Historical Activity Theory
> Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa
> alternative email address: tmacdoca@unisa.ac.za
>