[Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Re: Отв: Re: Отв: Re: Отв: Re: Object oriented activity and communication
James Ma
jamesma320@gmail.com
Tue Oct 31 15:09:22 PDT 2017
Perhaps I should say this was my privileged access because when I saw
Volosinov in Greg's message it immediately reminded me of the link between
his inner sign and the notion of privileged access.
James
2017年10月31日 下午9:50，"James Ma" <jamesma320@gmail.com>写道：
I'm inclined to think Volosinov's inner sign resembles privileged access -
both are located within oneself, inaccessible for other people.
James
On 31 October 2017 at 20:36, Greg Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
wrote:
> and for those curious about Volosinov, here is a great review of one of
> Volosinov's works, Marxism and the Philosophy of Language (it happens to be
> the one that I was referring to with the mention of hunger):
> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1473-4192.2009.00210.x/full
>
> -greg
>
> On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 11:12 AM, Greg Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
> >
> wrote:
>
> > David,
> >
> > I'd like to resist some of the individualism and internalism implied by
> > your notion of "privileged access". (and I suspect that this capacity
> > presupposes "guess what I'm thinking" kinds of games, and these are WEIRD
> > phenomena in as much as they aren't culturally universal - in some
> cultural
> > contexts they are seen to be rude!).
> >
> > To put my concern slightly differently and into questions:
> > 1. What exactly is it that one has "privileged access" to?
> > 2. Are there really no times in which we can have a feeling that is
> > someone else's? Can a child's fear not be the mother's fear?
> > 3. Are our feelings all ours? and not of others? (Here I'm thinking of
> the
> > experience of watching my children be socialized into feelings by seeing
> > what kinds of emotional expressions lead to what kinds of practical
> > outcomes (and here refer back to #1). But I'm also thinking of
> Volosinov's
> > notion of behavioral ideology - a feeling of hunger is something
> different
> > when shared by thousands of others).
> > 4. What is inside (and privileged) and what is outside (and not?)?
> >
> > Anyway, that's a bit of a mess, philosophically and otherwise, but seems
> > like questions very relevant to thinking about Vygotsky in the vein of
> > Hegel/Marx and attempts to transcend simple dualisms of subject/object,
> > inside/outside, individual/society, etc.
> >
> > Hope you are well wherever you may be
> > and may my well-being be your well-being...
> >
> > -greg
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 3:35 PM, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> I think that when your grandson feels fear, what the child feels is his
> >> own fear and not your fear. As you point out, what is communicated is a
> >> vague uneasiness and not urgent and immediately actionable thought "I'm
> >> afraid that my grandson is going to electrocute himself" or even
> "Grandpa
> >> is afraid that I am going to electrocute myself". I think that when
> Alan
> >> Bennet's mother sees the cow, what she feels is the sensation of seeing
> >> shapes and colors and remembering seeing such patterns in some concrete
> >> context and not the precise location of a specifiable semantic address.
> So
> >> it seems to me that Wittgenstein is confirmed and not confounded.
> >>
> >> Vygosky says that when a wild goose is startled and the whole flock
> takes
> >> wing, we should call it "contamination' rather than "communication".
> What
> >> is "communicable" here is symptom not cause. The first goose is afraid
> of
> >> something and not because the other geese are afraid. The other geese
> are
> >> not afraid of whatever it was that startled the first goose; they are
> >> afraid because the first goose is afraid, and that is all.
> >>
> >> If you have a cold and sneeze, and I am sneezing because of the pepper
> on
> >> my pickle sandwich, then I cannot say that I have caught your cold.
> There
> >> is a well-known joke which makes the same point: if you scream in a
> >> theatre, everybody tells you to shut up, but if you scream on an
> airplane
> >> they all join in. In neither case, however, is there a feeling
> >> communicated: in both cases, the only thing being communicated was the
> >> fact
> >> of screaming, not the emotion that gave rise to it.
> >>
> >> It makes a difference to an undamaged human brain. Here's Dr. Adolfo
> >> Garcia
> >> demonstrating that there are good neurological reasons why you can say
> "My
> >> grandson ate breakfast" and even "My grandson felt/thought that it was
> >> time
> >> for breakfast'" but you cannot say "My grandson ate that it was time for
> >> breakfast". Mental processes are one thing, and material processes are
> >> another: a human brain knows the difference, and our languages reflect
> >> this
> >> knowledge.
> >>
> >> https://vimeo.com/111374335
> >>
> >> Dr. Garcia has a good paper on this in Functions of Language:
> >>
> >> https://benjamins.com/#catalog/journals/fol.23.3.02gar/details
> >>
> >> If Alan Bennet's mum confirms Wittgenstein, but Alan Bennett thinks
> >> Wittgenstein is confounded, can we really say that he has understood
> >> Wittgenstein? if you prove my point, but you think you are actually
> >> contradicting it, have we communicated or not?
> >>
> >> David Kellogg
> >>
> >> On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 10:36 PM, Julian Williams <
> >> julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk> wrote:
> >>
> >> > David
> >> >
> >> > When I see my grandchild fall and bang their head I ‘feel their pain’
> >> and
> >> > wince even before I hear him cry… even more so, my grandson seems to
> >> feel
> >> > my fear before I actually say anything about it (when they poke their
> >> > finger into the socket), and even though he is too young to have any
> >> words
> >> > for ‘fear’… when you see someone’s face twist in such and such a way,
> >> you
> >> > mirror it and feel the sensation associated with the expression
> straight
> >> > away, don’t you?
> >> >
> >> > At some level of perception, we do communicate without words. As Alan
> >> > Bennet said in his diaries (when his demented mother pointed to a cow
> in
> >> > the field and said ‘I know what they are but not what they are
> called’)
> >> > “Thus Wittgenstein was confounded by my mother”.
> >> >
> >> > Am I missing your point?
> >> >
> >> > Julian
> >> >
> >> > On 26/10/2017, 11:58, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of
> >> David
> >> > Kellogg" <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of
> >> > dkellogg60@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > All Vygotsky says is that thinking is represented in the brain
> >> > differently
> >> > than immediate sensation. Vygotsky didn't have access to MRI scans
> >> or
> >> > computerized tomography. In fact these can and do distinguish
> >> between
> >> > verbs
> >> > of sensation and verbs of verbal report. But what Vygotsky did
> have
> >> > access
> >> > to is the grammar of reported speech.
> >> >
> >> > In all languages that I know, it is possible to quote the words of
> >> > another
> >> > person. I can say, for example:
> >> >
> >> > Sasha says "Obviously, this has nothing to do with Marxism".
> >> >
> >> > I can also quote the thoughts of another person.
> >> >
> >> > Sasha thinks, "Obviously, this has nothing to with Marxism."
> >> >
> >> > I can do this even when there are no actual words, just as I can
> >> read
> >> > Sasha's thoughts without him speaking them.
> >> >
> >> > However, in no languages that Iknow is it possible to quote the
> >> > actions or
> >> > the immediate sensations of another person. I cannot say, for
> >> example:
> >> >
> >> > "Sasha stood "Up""
> >> >
> >> > "Sasha felt 'Cold'".
> >> >
> >> > When I try to say this, what I end up saying is that Sasha
> thought a
> >> > word
> >> > meaning, not that he felt an immediate sensation.
> >> >
> >> > In Chinese we say, "The speaker has gone, and the tea is cold."
> >> This
> >> > is
> >> > originally a line from the revolutionary opera "Shajiabang",
> about a
> >> > woman
> >> > who runs a teahouse used by communists. In this scene, the
> children
> >> are
> >> > acting out a visit by a Chinese quisling and a Japanese officer;
> >> they
> >> > accuse the woman of communist sympathies, and she says that all
> >> people
> >> > who
> >> > come to her teahouse have sympathies, but as soon as they go,
> their
> >> > tea is
> >> > cold, and she throws it out (6:13).
> >> >
> >> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUYvyRMvCNU
> >> >
> >> > There is no way, as Wittgenstein says, to feel the toothache of
> >> another
> >> > person; all you can do is to describe it in thoughts and words.
> >> > Paradoxically, when we want to share thoughts, we can do it
> >> > "immediately",
> >> > because thoughts and words have already made the dialectical
> >> leap--the
> >> > leap
> >> > from idiolect into a sharable dialect.
> >> >
> >> > David Kellogg
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > other verbs). First of all, notice that he is saying that
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 5:14 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > That is a tendency within our heritage, David. Some people
> >> > > take the category of "labour" rather than "activity" to be
> >> > > the key category.
> >> > >
> >> > > As I understand it, "labour," or "production," is activity
> >> > > in the case where production and consumption and socially
> >> > > mediated, but I think that activity whose object is an
> >> > > object of consumption should be included within the basic
> >> > > category of Activity Theory, even if there are important
> >> > > psychological differences. Some are also concerned to
> >> > > separate symbolic activity, such as speech or supervision of
> >> > > labour, from the fundamental category, giving tool-use
> >> > > priority over sign use, and use of the term "labour"
> >> > > suggests that. Vygotsky expressed himself firmly against
> >> > > this move.
> >> > >
> >> > > So use of "activity" rather than "labour" or vice versa does
> >> > > reflect certain tensions within the tradition.
> >> > >
> >> > > Andy
> >> > >
> >> > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Tool%20and%
> >> > > 20Sign%20in%20Vygotskys%20Development.pdf
> >> > >
> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > > Andy Blunden
> >> > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
> >> > > On 26/10/2017 6:14 PM, WEBSTER, DAVID S. wrote:
> >> > > > Xmca seems to have a workerist tendency operating - for
> myself I
> >> > have
> >> > > always found that the work of generalising (in Vygotsky's sense)
> >> is a
> >> > > labour of object-oriented activity. But that's just me
> >> > > >
> >> > > > -----Original Message-----
> >> > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@
> >> > > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Alexander Surmava
> >> > > > Sent: 26 October 2017 00:13
> >> > > > To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Mike
> >> > Cole;
> >> > > ivan-dgf; Martin John Packer; Haydi Zulfei
> >> > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Отв: Re: Отв: Re: Отв: Re: Object oriented
> >> > activity
> >> > > and communication
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Dear Alfredo,
> >> > > >
> >> > > > thank you for your very accurate reaction. You definitely
> >> noticed
> >> > the
> >> > > main thing. Today, in the era of globalization and developed
> >> > technologies,
> >> > > the class antagonism between exploited people and their
> >> exploiters,
> >> > between
> >> > > capital and wage labor, assumes the appearance of the opposite
> >> > between
> >> > > different ethnic groups and cultures. Capital itself has always
> >> been
> >> > a
> >> > > global phenomenon, and a class of capitalists - a cosmopolitan
> >> class.
> >> > > Putting military overcoats on workers and sending them to fight
> >> and
> >> > to kill
> >> > > each other under nationalist slogans, they continued to
> cooperate
> >> > with
> >> > > their exploitation colleagues, somehow continuing to receive
> >> > dividends from
> >> > > their enterprises located on the territory of their "enemy."
> Today
> >> > Putin's
> >> > > friends and henchmen who curse the "insidious West" take their
> >> > capitals to
> >> > > this West, buy property there, send their children to study
> there
> >> > and go
> >> > > there themselves to rest and be treated. And today Mr.
> Poroshenko
> >> -
> >> > the
> >> > > president of the country that was subje
> >> > > > cted to the aggression of the neighboring state, owns
> chocolate
> >> > > factories located on the territory of this country.
> >> > > > In Russia, and in Western Europe, and in the United States,
> the
> >> > policy
> >> > > of the ruling classes is based today on inciting against each
> >> other
> >> > the
> >> > > working people of different ethnic groups and confessions, on
> >> their
> >> > > juxtaposition of each other as superior and second-class
> >> creatures.
> >> > > > And as an ideological justification of the enmity incited by
> the
> >> > ruling
> >> > > class towards working people of a different skin color, working
> >> > people
> >> > > speaking a different language and praying to other gods, public
> >> > > consciousness is infected with totally false ideas constructed
> >> > allegedly on
> >> > > a scientific basis. All this is not new. One hundred years ago,
> >> the
> >> > > dominant ideology rested on undisguised racism. Today, the same
> >> task
> >> > is
> >> > > being solved by more sophisticated means, appealing to so-called
> >> > "cultural"
> >> > > differences. Although the old ideology appealing to biological
> >> > differences
> >> > > has not disappeared. Only today it is covered by a new,
> >> > molecular-genetic
> >> > > argumentation, an appeal not only to livestock farming, but also
> >> to
> >> > the
> >> > > "psychology of culture".
> >> > > > It is possible to unmask this bourgeois lie, not only in words
> >> but
> >> > also
> >> > > in deeds, if we can understand that human development is not the
> >> > ability of
> >> > > individuals to experience (perejivat’) the meaning of words, but
> >> to
> >> > be
> >> > > genuine subjects of object-oriented activity, the subjects of
> >> labor.
> >> > > > If we stay on Vygotsky's theoretical positions, which believed
> >> > that the
> >> > > human psyche begins with acts of sensation that thinking is
> just a
> >> > verbal
> >> > > "generalization" of the material that our senses deliver to us,
> >> then
> >> > any
> >> > > wretched ideologist, with a well-suspended language, will seem
> to
> >> us
> >> > the
> >> > > owner of perfect wisdom, whereas a worker or a peasant doing his
> >> own
> >> > work,
> >> > > but not possessing the skill of ideological verbosity, will look
> >> > something
> >> > > inferior.
> >> > > > If someone is shocked by such an evaluation of Vygotsky's
> >> theory,
> >> > open
> >> > > his "Thinking and speach" and reread this key paragraph.
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > "It has been said that the dialectical leap is not only a
> >> > transition
> >> > > from matter that is incapable of sensation to matter that is
> >> capable
> >> > of
> >> > > sensation, but a transition from sensation to thought. This
> >> implies
> >> > that
> >> > > reality is reflected in consciousness in a qualitatively
> different
> >> > way in
> >> > > thinking than it is in immediate sensation. This qualitative
> >> > difference is
> >> > > primarily a function of a generalized reflection of reality.
> >> > Therefore,
> >> > > generalization in word meaning is an act of thinking in the true
> >> > sense of
> >> > > the word. At the same time, however, meaning is an inseparable
> >> part
> >> > of the
> >> > > word; it belongs not only to the domain of thought but to the
> >> domain
> >> > of
> >> > > speech. A word without meaning is not a word, but an empty
> sound.
> >> A
> >> > word
> >> > > without meaning no longer belongs to the domain of speech. One
> >> > cannot say
> >> > > of word meaning what we said earlier of the elements of the word
> >> > taken
> >> > > separately. Is word meaning speech or is it thought? It is both
> at
> >> > one and
> >> > > the same time; it is a unit of verbal thi
> >> > > > nking. It is obvious, then, that our method must be that of
> >> > semantic
> >> > > analysis. Our method must rely on the analysts of the meaningful
> >> > aspect of
> >> > > speech; it must be a method for studying verbal meaning.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > We can reasonably anticipate that this method will produce
> >> answers
> >> > to
> >> > > our questions concerning the relationship between thinking and
> >> speech
> >> > > because this relationship is already contained in the unit of
> >> > analysis. In
> >> > > studying the function, structure, and development of this unit,
> we
> >> > will
> >> > > come to understand a great deal that is of direct relevance to
> the
> >> > problem
> >> > > of the relationship of thinking to speech and to the nature of
> >> verbal
> >> > > thinking."
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Obviously, such an "understanding" of thinking has not the
> >> > slightest
> >> > > relation to either Spinozism or Marxism. It is a naive attempt
> to
> >> > combine
> >> > > eclectically the old ideas of empirical psychology with the
> school
> >> > textbook
> >> > > of formal logic.
> >> > > > (Of course, I understand that this paragraph needs more
> detailed
> >> > > theoretical analysis. And I will not slow down this analysis in
> >> the
> >> > very
> >> > > near future. In the meantime, I only note that Vygotsky's
> >> assertion
> >> > that
> >> > > "generalization is a verbal act of thought" is a maximally
> >> aphoristic
> >> > > expression of his idealistic position. For us, as for the
> >> > materialists, the
> >> > > generalization is a practical act and its instrument is the
> >> > instrument of
> >> > > labor. And the initial and universal instrument of
> generalization
> >> is
> >> > not a
> >> > > sign, but an instrument of labor. So the ax is a means of
> >> > generalizing the
> >> > > properties of wood. The ax is, in the same time, a means of
> >> > analyzing all
> >> > > the same wood. All this is obvious, looking through the optics
> of
> >> > > Spinoza-Ilyenkov, that is, simply a Marxist definition of
> >> ideality.)
> >> > > Theoretical conclusions made by Vygotsky from the results of
> >> Luria's
> >> > trip
> >> > > to Uzbekistan logically follow from the above. The Uzbek
> >> illiterate
> >> > > peasant, not from school textbooks, but from his own labo
> >> > > > r experience knowing how the earth, aryk, water, hoe and
> melon
> >> are
> >> > > connected, and therefore refusing to produce meaningless formal
> >> > logical
> >> > > operations with words denoting these things, is declared a
> >> primitive
> >> > > thinking by "complexes". Simultaneously, any school crap who
> knows
> >> > how to
> >> > > pronounce definitions from his textbook and familiar with the
> >> melon
> >> > only
> >> > > when it is bought, washed and cut by his mommy, is declared the
> >> > bearer of
> >> > > scientific consciousness.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Only in this way can we, as psychologists and teachers, come
> to
> >> the
> >> > > value of instruments of labor, not only for the distribution of
> >> > material
> >> > > wealth, but also for the distribution of the spiritual wealth,
> for
> >> > the
> >> > > distribution of the ability to think, for the distribution of
> >> > culture. Only
> >> > > in this way can we approach the Marxist definition of culture as
> >> the
> >> > > totality of the means of its object-oriented activity
> accumulated
> >> by
> >> > > humankind the means of its labor. Only on the path of such based
> >> on
> >> > idea of
> >> > > object-oriented activity understanding of man we will be able to
> >> get
> >> > out of
> >> > > the deadlock of the semiotic, with its symbolic arbitrariness.
> >> > > > Vygotsky's merit is that he was the first who seriously set
> the
> >> > task of
> >> > > creating a Marxist psychology and his merit can be considered
> that
> >> > the
> >> > > first real step in this direction was made by his friend and
> >> student
> >> > AN
> >> > > Leontiev.Our task is to continue their mission.
> >> > > > Sasha
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > От: Alfredo Jornet Gil <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
> >> > > > Кому: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <
> >> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
> >> > >;
> >> > > Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>; ivan-dgf <ivan-dgf@migmail.ru>;
> >> > Martin
> >> > > John Packer <mpacker@uniandes.edu.co>; Haydi Zulfei <
> >> > > haydizulfei@rocketmail.com>; Alexander Surmava <
> >> > > alexander.surmava@yahoo.com>
> >> > > > Отправлено: среда, 25 октября 2017 15:03
> >> > > > Тема: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Отв: Re: Отв: Re: Object oriented
> >> activity
> >> > and
> >> > > communication
> >> > > >
> >> > > > #yiv0081188988 #yiv0081188988 -- P
> >> {margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:
> >> > 0px;}#yiv0081188988
> >> > > Dear Sasha, all,
> >> > > >
> >> > > > apologies for late response, as we've had some health issues
> at
> >> > home
> >> > > that fortunately are now dissipating but which have limited
> >> > participation
> >> > > anywhere else than home life.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > The real need of democratic pedagogy. That sounds like a
> >> concrete
> >> > aspect
> >> > > to begin moving on to what we had hoped at the beginning of this
> >> > > conversation: how is this all gonna be of practical (real)
> >> relevance
> >> > to us
> >> > > and not only armchair discussion. So, in what sense is this
> >> 'real,'
> >> > and is
> >> > > this a 'need'? (I am not addressing Sasha alone, I am addressing
> >> any
> >> > and
> >> > > everyone)
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Alfredo
> >> > > >
> >> > > > From: Alexander Surmava <alexander.surmava@yahoo.com>
> >> > > > Sent: 21 October 2017 13:36
> >> > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Mike Cole; Alfredo
> Jornet
> >> > Gil;
> >> > > ivan-dgf; Martin John Packer; Haydi Zulfei
> >> > > > Subject: Отв: [Xmca-l] Re: Отв: Re: Отв: Re: Object oriented
> >> > activity
> >> > > and communication Dear Martin,I think that if we're going to
> >> discuss
> >> > the
> >> > > method of Marx, then it is better to do it discussing his most
> >> > mature work.
> >> > > That is evidently "Das Kapital" and Ilyenkov's monograph
> >> "Dialectics
> >> > of the
> >> > > abstract and concrete in theoretical thinking". I am aware that
> >> > there is a
> >> > > point of view that the position of Marx as a humanist was
> >> adequately
> >> > > presented in Gründrisse, whereas the humanistic core of Marx's
> >> > theory was
> >> > > allegedly lost in “Das Kapital”. Accordingly, Marxism is better
> to
> >> > study
> >> > > with the help of Gründrisse, and not with the help of “Das
> >> Kapital”.
> >> > Along
> >> > > with Ilyenkov I do not share this view.I'm afraid that the
> >> > discussion of
> >> > > this topic would take us too far from our psychological themes.
> I
> >> > think
> >> > > that we should not get stuck in discussing the order of "steps",
> >> but
> >> > > immediately put our foot on the first "step" so that after that
> >> try
> >> > to rise
> >> > > from it to the seco
> >> > > > nd, and so on ... Taking into account my not young age, it
> >> seems
> >> > to me
> >> > > that at least for me, it's time to move on from the discussion
> of
> >> the
> >> > > method to the discussion of the subject, from the preparation to
> >> > thinking,
> >> > > to the thinking as such. Especially because the Method can not
> be
> >> > studied
> >> > > before and regardless of the study of the very subject. Perhaps
> >> this
> >> > seems
> >> > > paradoxical, but it is a paradox only for those who are not
> >> familiar
> >> > with
> >> > > the dialectic of Spinoza and Marx. Meanwhile, instead of
> >> discussing
> >> > the
> >> > > question - what is activity, or what is the psyche - we continue
> >> to
> >> > carry
> >> > > water in a sieve, discussing the singular or plural of the term
> >> > activity.
> >> > > Without a doubt, this topic is very useful for translators from
> >> > Russian (or
> >> > > German) language to English, but theoretically it is not very
> >> > informative.
> >> > > And besides, we are convinced that Andy Blunden completely
> >> exhausted
> >> > this
> >> > > topic a few years ago. Much more interesting would be to discuss
> >> the
> >> > > question: what is the justificati
> >> > > > on to declare Vygotsky the founder of activity theory. Where,
> >> in
> >> > any
> >> > > > of his works, Vygotsky introduces the concept of activity, not
> >> > just uses
> >> > > the term «activity» in the theoretical contexts in which it is
> >> used
> >> > > habitually by idealistic psychology. “The activity (or
> >> activities) of
> >> > > consciousness”, “the activity (or activities) of mental
> >> functions”,
> >> > “speech
> >> > > activity (or activities)”, the concrete activities of the
> >> > personality”- all
> >> > > this has nothing to do with object-oriented activity, with
> Spinoza
> >> > and
> >> > > Marx. It seems to me that our main mistake is that we are
> >> discussing
> >> > the
> >> > > subtleties of understanding the categories of activity by
> Vygotsky
> >> > and
> >> > > Leontyev, whereas we need something different. It is necessary
> to
> >> > try to
> >> > > formulate OUR OWN UNDERSTANDING of the activity, proceeding from
> >> THE
> >> > REAL
> >> > > NEED OF THE PRACTICE OF DEMOCRATIC PEDAGOGY.It is impossible to
> >> > understand
> >> > > activity based on Vygotsky's ideas, because there was no such
> >> > theoretical
> >> > > category in his theoretical system of views. AN Leontiev
> >> introduces a
> >> > > category of object-oriented a
> >> > > > ctivity into psychology, but his theory is of little use for
> >> > solving
> >> > > practical problems too, for saying “A”, Leontyev never said “B”.
> >> > Having
> >> > > proposed the principle of activity as the universal basis of the
> >> > > psychological theory, its germ cell AN Leontiev did not go
> further
> >> > failing
> >> > > to concretize this correctly chosen abstract category.Once
> again,
> >> > from
> >> > > thehobby group of lovers of Vygotsky, with his
> >> "Сultural-Рistorical
> >> > > Psychology" and AN Leontyev with his "Psychological Theory of
> >> > Activity" we
> >> > > all have to become community of researchers developing
> >> fundamentally
> >> > new
> >> > > approaches to education, based on dialectical, revolutionary
> >> method
> >> > of
> >> > > Marx.For the realization of this dream, it is necessary to begin
> >> not
> >> > so
> >> > > much - to learn to listen to each other... :-)Sincerely,Sasha
> >> > > >
> >> > > > От: Martin John Packer <mpacker@uniandes.edu.co>
> >> > > > Кому: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <
> >> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> >> > > > Отправлено: пятница, 20 октября 2017 3:08
> >> > > > Тема: [Xmca-l] Re: Отв: Re: Отв: Re: Object oriented activity
> >> and
> >> > > communication
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Right, Marx was himself well aware of this difference. My
> point
> >> is
> >> > that
> >> > > we have begin to talk about “the start” of Marx’s analysis, and
> >> > about its
> >> > > “stages,” but these should not be equated with the order of the
> >> > treatment
> >> > > in Capital.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Martin
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Oct 19, 2017, at 5:40 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
> >> > <mailto:ablu
> >> > > nden@mira.net>> wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/p3.htm
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Of course the method of presentation must differ in form
> >> > > > from that of inquiry. The latter has to appropriate the
> >> > > > material in detail, to analyse its different forms of
> >> > > > development, to trace out their inner connexion. Only
> >> > > > after this work is done, can the actual movement be
> >> > > > adequately described. If this is done successfully, if
> >> > > > the life of the subject-matter is ideally reflected as
> >> > > > in a mirror, then it may appear as if we had before us a
> >> > > > mere a priori construction.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Andy
> >> > > >
> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > > > Andy Blunden
> >> > > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
> >> > > > On 20/10/2017 3:23 AM, Martin John Packer wrote:
> >> > > > Seems to me that if we’re going to talk about the details of
> >> Marx’s
> >> > > analysis we need to look not at Capital but at the Grundrisse.
> The
> >> > two have
> >> > > virtually opposite organizations; it’s clear that the order of
> >> > presentation
> >> > > in Capital was not the order of analysis.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Martin
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> > Assistant Professor
> > Department of Anthropology
> > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> > Brigham Young University
> > Provo, UT 84602
> > WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu
> > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> Assistant Professor
> Department of Anthropology
> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> Brigham Young University
> Provo, UT 84602
> WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu
> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
>
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