[Xmca-l] Re: Отв: Re: Отв: Re: Отв: Re: Object oriented activity and communication

[David Kellogg]

Yes, privileged access is not a metaphyiscal, philosophical problem; it's a
real, concrete problem for stage actors. It's why Vygotsky takes
Stanislavsky's scripts as a kind of model for the human mind in Chapter
Seven of Thinking and Speech. How the actor gives the audience access to
the plane of thinkings and sayings was never problematic. In Shakespeare's
time, there were long "set speeches" to the audience, but the "true
feelings" of the character for the character she or he was about to murder
or marry had to be conveyed soto voce, in asides. Shakespeare changed all
that, and he did it with stagecraft, by dividing the stage into planes
representing the mind of the speaker--the foreplane, where Hamlet advances
to the front of the stage and speaks feelings to the audience, the midplane
for quoting thoughts and words, and the rearplane for actions.

This model is essentially the model of the mind we see in Chapter Seven.
Alas,  only David Tennant, of contemporary Shakespeareans, really
understands this: only his Hamlet speaks "To be or not to be" with UPWARD
intonation, as if it were a real question, and manipulates the stresses
correctly, so that "whether tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and
arrows of outrageous fortune" in the end turns out to be "not to be" while
"to take up arms against a sea of troubles and by opposing end them" turns
out to be "to be".
Benedict Cumberbatch, by contrast, turns this torrent of emotion back into
a fifteenth century set speech and delivers it like a soldier presenting a
battle briefing to superior officers with a PPT.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twwntlAlnV0

The Chinese actor is more Brechtian than Stanslavskian (or rather, Brecht
was more Chinese than European); the Chinese actor always has the character
at arms length, even the character which the actor is conveying (the
dialectical leap is between actor and character, not between doing,
feeling, thinking and saying). Notice the first part of the video when the
various actors are explaining their feelings to audience. They don't have a
particular place where they stand to do this, or even a particular
intonation for it: it is more often conveyed by their gestures and their
eye contact, and by their use of the third person in Chinese, which shows
they are addressing the audience rather than their interlocutor.The Chinese
actor always stresses the linked quality of feeling and thinking, thinking
and doing, while the Western actor tries to convey the dialectical leap.

David Kellogg

On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 9:59 PM, James Ma <jamesma320@gmail.com> wrote:

> David, sounds like you're talking about "privilege access"?
>
> The video brought back a lot of memories of my childhood!
>
> James
>
>
>
> On 26 October 2017 at 11:55, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >  All Vygotsky says is that thinking is represented in the brain
> differently
> > than immediate sensation. Vygotsky didn't have access to MRI scans or
> > computerized tomography. In fact these can and do distinguish between
> verbs
> > of sensation and verbs of verbal report. But what Vygotsky did have
> access
> > to is the grammar of reported speech.
> >
> > In all languages that I know, it is possible to quote the words of
> another
> > person. I can say, for example:
> >
> > Sasha says "Obviously, this has nothing to do with Marxism".
> >
> > I can also quote the thoughts of another person.
> >
> > Sasha thinks, "Obviously, this has nothing to with Marxism."
> >
> > I can do this even when there are no actual words, just as I can read
> > Sasha's thoughts without him speaking them.
> >
> > However, in no languages that Iknow is it possible to quote the actions
> or
> > the immediate sensations of another person. I cannot say, for example:
> >
> > "Sasha stood "Up""
> >
> > "Sasha felt 'Cold'".
> >
> > When I try to say this, what I end up saying is that Sasha thought a word
> > meaning, not that he felt an immediate sensation.
> >
> > In Chinese we say, "The speaker has gone, and the tea is cold."  This is
> > originally a line from the revolutionary opera "Shajiabang", about a
> woman
> > who runs a teahouse used by communists. In this scene, the children are
> > acting out a visit by a Chinese quisling and a Japanese officer; they
> > accuse the woman of communist sympathies, and she says that all people
> who
> > come to her teahouse have sympathies, but as soon as they go, their tea
> is
> > cold, and she throws it out (6:13).
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUYvyRMvCNU
> >
> > There is no way, as Wittgenstein says, to feel the toothache of another
> > person; all you can do is to describe it in thoughts and words.
> > Paradoxically, when we want to share thoughts, we can do it
> "immediately",
> > because thoughts and words have already made the dialectical leap--the
> leap
> > from idiolect into a sharable dialect.
> >
> > David Kellogg
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > other verbs). First of all, notice that he is saying that
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 5:14 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
> >
> > > That is a tendency within our heritage, David. Some people
> > > take the category of "labour" rather than "activity" to be
> > > the key category.
> > >
> > > As I understand it, "labour," or "production," is activity
> > > in the case where production and consumption and socially
> > > mediated, but I think that activity whose object is an
> > > object of consumption should be included within the basic
> > > category of Activity Theory, even if there are important
> > > psychological differences. Some are also concerned to
> > > separate symbolic activity, such as speech or supervision of
> > > labour, from the fundamental category, giving tool-use
> > > priority over sign use, and use of the term "labour"
> > > suggests that. Vygotsky expressed himself firmly against
> > > this move.
> > >
> > > So use of "activity" rather than "labour" or vice versa does
> > > reflect certain tensions within the tradition.
> > >
> > > Andy
> > >
> > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Tool%20and%
> > > 20Sign%20in%20Vygotskys%20Development.pdf
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Andy Blunden
> > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
> > > On 26/10/2017 6:14 PM, WEBSTER, DAVID S. wrote:
> > > > Xmca seems to have a workerist tendency operating - for myself I have
> > > always found that the work of generalising (in Vygotsky's sense) is a
> > > labour of object-oriented activity. But that's just me
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@
> > > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Alexander Surmava
> > > > Sent: 26 October 2017 00:13
> > > > To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Mike Cole;
> > > ivan-dgf; Martin John Packer; ‪Haydi ‪Zulfei‬‬
> > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Отв: Re: Отв: Re: Отв: Re: Object oriented activity
> > > and communication
> > > >
> > > > Dear Alfredo,
> > > >
> > > > thank you for your very accurate reaction. You definitely noticed the
> > > main thing. Today, in the era of globalization and developed
> > technologies,
> > > the class antagonism between exploited people and their exploiters,
> > between
> > > capital and wage labor, assumes the appearance of the opposite between
> > > different ethnic groups and cultures. Capital itself has always been a
> > > global phenomenon, and a class of capitalists - a cosmopolitan class.
> > > Putting military overcoats on workers and sending them to fight and to
> > kill
> > > each other under nationalist slogans, they continued to cooperate with
> > > their exploitation colleagues, somehow continuing to receive dividends
> > from
> > > their enterprises located on the territory of their "enemy." Today
> > Putin's
> > > friends and henchmen who curse the "insidious West" take their capitals
> > to
> > > this West, buy property there, send their children to study there and
> go
> > > there themselves to rest and be treated. And today Mr. Poroshenko - the
> > > president of the country that was subje
> > > >  cted to the aggression of the neighboring state, owns chocolate
> > > factories located on the territory of this country.
> > > > In Russia, and in Western Europe, and in the United States, the
> policy
> > > of the ruling classes is based today on inciting against each other the
> > > working people of different ethnic groups and confessions, on their
> > > juxtaposition of each other as superior and second-class creatures.
> > > > And as an ideological justification of the enmity incited by the
> ruling
> > > class towards working people of a different skin color, working people
> > > speaking a different language and praying to other gods, public
> > > consciousness is infected with totally false ideas constructed
> allegedly
> > on
> > > a scientific basis. All this is not new. One hundred years ago, the
> > > dominant ideology rested on undisguised racism. Today, the same task is
> > > being solved by more sophisticated means, appealing to so-called
> > "cultural"
> > > differences. Although the old ideology appealing to biological
> > differences
> > > has not disappeared. Only today it is covered by a new,
> molecular-genetic
> > > argumentation, an appeal not only to livestock farming, but also to the
> > > "psychology of culture".
> > > > It is possible to unmask this bourgeois lie, not only in words but
> also
> > > in deeds, if we can understand that human development is not the
> ability
> > of
> > > individuals to experience (perejivat’) the meaning of words, but to be
> > > genuine subjects of object-oriented activity, the subjects of labor.
> > > > If we stay on Vygotsky's theoretical positions, which believed that
> the
> > > human psyche begins with acts of sensation that thinking is just a
> verbal
> > > "generalization" of the material that our senses deliver to us, then
> any
> > > wretched ideologist, with a well-suspended language, will seem to us
> the
> > > owner of perfect wisdom, whereas a worker or a peasant doing his own
> > work,
> > > but not possessing the skill of ideological verbosity, will look
> > something
> > > inferior.
> > > > If someone is shocked by such an evaluation of Vygotsky's theory,
> open
> > > his "Thinking and speach" and reread this key paragraph.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "It has been said that the dialectical leap is not only a transition
> > > from matter that is incapable of sensation to matter that is capable of
> > > sensation, but a transition from sensation to thought. This implies
> that
> > > reality is reflected in consciousness in a qualitatively different way
> in
> > > thinking than it is in immediate sensation. This qualitative difference
> > is
> > > primarily a function of a generalized reflection of reality. Therefore,
> > > generalization in word meaning is an act of thinking in the true sense
> of
> > > the word. At the same time, however, meaning is an inseparable part of
> > the
> > > word; it belongs not only to the domain of thought but to the domain of
> > > speech. A word without meaning is not a word, but an empty sound. A
> word
> > > without meaning no longer belongs to the domain of speech. One cannot
> say
> > > of word meaning what we said earlier of the elements of the word taken
> > > separately. Is word meaning speech or is it thought? It is both at one
> > and
> > > the same time; it is a unit of verbal thi
> > > >  nking. It is obvious, then, that our method must be that of semantic
> > > analysis. Our method must rely on the analysts of the meaningful aspect
> > of
> > > speech; it must be a method for studying verbal meaning.
> > > >
> > > > We can reasonably anticipate that this method will produce answers to
> > > our questions concerning the relationship between thinking and speech
> > > because this relationship is already contained in the unit of analysis.
> > In
> > > studying the function, structure, and development of this unit, we will
> > > come to understand a great deal that is of direct relevance to the
> > problem
> > > of the relationship of thinking to speech and to the nature of verbal
> > > thinking."
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Obviously, such an "understanding" of thinking has not the slightest
> > > relation to either Spinozism or Marxism. It is a naive attempt to
> combine
> > > eclectically the old ideas of empirical psychology with the school
> > textbook
> > > of formal logic.
> > > > (Of course, I understand that this paragraph needs more detailed
> > > theoretical analysis. And I will not slow down this analysis in the
> very
> > > near future. In the meantime, I only note that Vygotsky's assertion
> that
> > > "generalization is a verbal act of thought" is a maximally aphoristic
> > > expression of his idealistic position. For us, as for the materialists,
> > the
> > > generalization is a practical act and its instrument is the instrument
> of
> > > labor. And the initial and universal instrument of generalization is
> not
> > a
> > > sign, but an instrument of labor. So the ax is a means of generalizing
> > the
> > > properties of wood. The ax is, in the same time, a means of analyzing
> all
> > > the same wood. All this is obvious, looking through the optics of
> > > Spinoza-Ilyenkov, that is, simply a Marxist definition of ideality.)
> > > Theoretical conclusions made by Vygotsky from the results of Luria's
> trip
> > > to Uzbekistan logically follow from the above. The Uzbek illiterate
> > > peasant, not from school textbooks, but from his own labo
> > > >  r experience knowing how the earth, aryk, water, hoe and melon are
> > > connected, and therefore refusing to produce meaningless formal logical
> > > operations with words denoting these things, is declared a primitive
> > > thinking by "complexes". Simultaneously, any school crap who knows how
> to
> > > pronounce definitions from his textbook and familiar with the melon
> only
> > > when it is bought, washed and cut by his mommy, is declared the bearer
> of
> > > scientific consciousness.
> > > >
> > > > Only in this way can we, as psychologists and teachers, come to the
> > > value of instruments of labor, not only for the distribution of
> material
> > > wealth, but also for the distribution of the spiritual wealth, for the
> > > distribution of the ability to think, for the distribution of culture.
> > Only
> > > in this way can we approach the Marxist definition of culture as the
> > > totality of the means of its object-oriented activity accumulated by
> > > humankind the means of its labor. Only on the path of such based on
> idea
> > of
> > > object-oriented activity understanding of man we will be able to get
> out
> > of
> > > the deadlock of the semiotic, with its symbolic arbitrariness.
> > > > Vygotsky's merit is that he was the first who seriously set the task
> of
> > > creating a Marxist psychology and his merit can be considered that the
> > > first real step in this direction was made by his friend and student AN
> > > Leontiev.Our task is to continue their mission.
> > > > Sasha
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >       От: Alfredo Jornet Gil <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
> > > >  Кому: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>;
> > > Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>; ivan-dgf <ivan-dgf@migmail.ru>; Martin
> > > John Packer <mpacker@uniandes.edu.co>; ‪Haydi ‪Zulfei‬‬ <
> > > haydizulfei@rocketmail.com>; Alexander Surmava <
> > > alexander.surmava@yahoo.com>
> > > >  Отправлено: среда, 25 октября 2017 15:03
> > > >  Тема: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Отв: Re: Отв: Re: Object oriented activity
> and
> > > communication
> > > >
> > > > #yiv0081188988 #yiv0081188988 -- P {margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:
> > 0px;}#yiv0081188988
> > > Dear Sasha, all,
> > > >
> > > > apologies for late response, as we've had some health issues at home
> > > that fortunately are now dissipating but which have limited
> participation
> > > anywhere else than home life.
> > > >
> > > > The real need of democratic pedagogy. That sounds like a concrete
> > aspect
> > > to begin moving on to what we had hoped at the beginning of this
> > > conversation: how is this all gonna be of practical (real) relevance to
> > us
> > > and not only armchair discussion. So, in what sense is this 'real,' and
> > is
> > > this a 'need'? (I am not addressing Sasha alone, I am addressing any
> and
> > > everyone)
> > > >
> > > > Alfredo
> > > >
> > > > From: Alexander Surmava <alexander.surmava@yahoo.com>
> > > > Sent: 21 October 2017 13:36
> > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Mike Cole; Alfredo Jornet Gil;
> > > ivan-dgf; Martin John Packer; ‪Haydi ‪Zulfei‬‬
> > > > Subject: Отв: [Xmca-l] Re: Отв: Re: Отв: Re: Object oriented activity
> > > and communication Dear Martin,I think that if we're going to discuss
> the
> > > method of Marx, then it is better to do it discussing his most mature
> > work.
> > > That is evidently "Das Kapital" and Ilyenkov's monograph "Dialectics of
> > the
> > > abstract and concrete in theoretical thinking". I am aware that there
> is
> > a
> > > point of view that the position of Marx as a humanist was adequately
> > > presented in Gründrisse, whereas the humanistic core of Marx's theory
> was
> > > allegedly lost in “Das Kapital”. Accordingly, Marxism is better to
> study
> > > with the help of Gründrisse, and not with the help of “Das Kapital”.
> > Along
> > > with Ilyenkov I do not share this view.I'm afraid that the discussion
> of
> > > this topic would take us too far from our psychological themes. I think
> > > that we should not get stuck in discussing the order of "steps", but
> > > immediately put our foot on the first "step" so that after that try to
> > rise
> > > from it to the seco
> > > >  nd, and so on ... Taking into account my not young age, it seems to
> me
> > > that at least for me, it's time to move on from the discussion of the
> > > method to the discussion of the subject, from the preparation to
> > thinking,
> > > to the thinking as such. Especially because the Method can not be
> studied
> > > before and regardless of the study of the very subject. Perhaps this
> > seems
> > > paradoxical, but it is a paradox only for those who are not familiar
> with
> > > the dialectic of Spinoza and Marx. Meanwhile, instead of discussing the
> > > question - what is activity, or what is the psyche - we continue to
> carry
> > > water in a sieve, discussing the singular or plural of the term
> activity.
> > > Without a doubt, this topic is very useful for translators from Russian
> > (or
> > > German) language to English, but theoretically it is not very
> > informative.
> > > And besides, we are convinced that Andy Blunden completely exhausted
> this
> > > topic a few years ago. Much more interesting would be to discuss the
> > > question: what is the justificati
> > > >  on to declare Vygotsky the founder of activity theory. Where, in any
> > > > of his works, Vygotsky introduces the concept of activity, not just
> > uses
> > > the term «activity» in the theoretical contexts in which it is used
> > > habitually by idealistic psychology. “The activity (or activities) of
> > > consciousness”, “the activity (or activities) of mental functions”,
> > “speech
> > > activity (or activities)”, the concrete activities of the personality”-
> > all
> > > this has nothing to do with object-oriented activity, with Spinoza and
> > > Marx. It seems to me that our main mistake is that we are discussing
> the
> > > subtleties of understanding the categories of activity by Vygotsky and
> > > Leontyev, whereas we need something different. It is necessary to try
> to
> > > formulate OUR OWN UNDERSTANDING of the activity, proceeding from THE
> REAL
> > > NEED OF THE PRACTICE OF DEMOCRATIC PEDAGOGY.It is impossible to
> > understand
> > > activity based on Vygotsky's ideas, because there was no such
> theoretical
> > > category in his theoretical system of views. AN Leontiev introduces a
> > > category of object-oriented a
> > > >  ctivity into psychology, but his theory is of little use for solving
> > > practical problems too, for saying “A”, Leontyev never said “B”. Having
> > > proposed the principle of activity as the universal basis of the
> > > psychological theory, its germ cell AN Leontiev did not go further
> > failing
> > > to concretize this correctly chosen abstract category.Once again, from
> > > thehobby group of lovers of Vygotsky, with his "Сultural-Рistorical
> > > Psychology" and AN Leontyev with his "Psychological Theory of Activity"
> > we
> > > all have to become community of researchers developing fundamentally
> new
> > > approaches to education, based on dialectical, revolutionary method of
> > > Marx.For the realization of this dream, it is necessary to begin not so
> > > much - to learn to listen to each other... :-)Sincerely,Sasha
> > > >
> > > > От: Martin John Packer <mpacker@uniandes.edu.co>
> > > > Кому: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> > > > Отправлено: пятница, 20 октября 2017 3:08
> > > > Тема: [Xmca-l] Re: Отв: Re: Отв: Re: Object oriented activity and
> > > communication
> > > >
> > > > Right, Marx was himself well aware of this difference. My point is
> that
> > > we have begin to talk about “the start” of Marx’s analysis, and about
> its
> > > “stages,” but these should not be equated with the order of the
> treatment
> > > in Capital.
> > > >
> > > > Martin
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Oct 19, 2017, at 5:40 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net<mailto:
> > ablu
> > > nden@mira.net>> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/p3.htm
> > > >
> > > >   Of course the method of presentation must differ in form
> > > >   from that of inquiry. The latter has to appropriate the
> > > >   material in detail, to analyse its different forms of
> > > >   development, to trace out their inner connexion. Only
> > > >   after this work is done, can the actual movement be
> > > >   adequately described. If this is done successfully, if
> > > >   the life of the subject-matter is ideally reflected as
> > > >   in a mirror, then it may appear as if we had before us a
> > > >   mere a priori construction.
> > > >
> > > > Andy
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > Andy Blunden
> > > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
> > > > On 20/10/2017 3:23 AM, Martin John Packer wrote:
> > > > Seems to me that if we’re going to talk about the details of Marx’s
> > > analysis we need to look not at Capital but at the Grundrisse. The two
> > have
> > > virtually opposite organizations; it’s clear that the order of
> > presentation
> > > in Capital was not the order of analysis.
> > > >
> > > > Martin
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>