[Xmca-l] Re: Publishers seek removal of millions of papers from ResearchGate

Mon Oct 9 17:04:38 PDT 2017

Nice to see you kind regards, Annalisa--

I have no sophisticated argument about fair use. the x in xlchc referred
simultaneously to people who had spent time at the lab and now could remain
connected to each other to continue pursuing joint educational/research
concerns. Then it sort of became not x as in ex but x and in extended.

It was conceived as a more or less natural extension, given evolving
communication technologies, of the lchc seminars which were definitely
educational fora.

To the extent that participants are contributing to that effort through
their participation in the discussion, either directly, or as they think
about the discussion they are listening to later in connection with their
work, I hope can remain an educational forum.

Hopefully plans for a new MCA web page will upgrade this antiquated
discourse mode for one more in keeping with the times. But until then, here
we are so its seems just common sense to make the best use of it.

:-)

mike

On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 2:11 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
wrote:

> Very strong metaphor the one with the raccoon trap, Annalisa. Mike will
> surely address your questions better, but, while I see how xmca is an
> educational forum and I would and do encourage all authors to share their
> work here, it is not a 'publishing model', which seems to be what you are
> trying to work out.
>
> In support of the legitimate sharing of work that xmca supports as an
> educational forum, even T&F is happy to release open access one article per
> issue during a couple of months only for us to discuss it here, in addition
> to us sharing the PDF here. So now, Carrie Lobman's article is open access
> for everyone thanks to this educative/scholarly initiative we try to
> sustain here. Not to mention, as Mike says, the open access to the
> perennial discussions topics.
>
> I think Michael G's comments comparing Research Gate and Academia.edu with
> Facebook's role in the elections are very enlightening, for it really is a
> concern not only of some making profit, but also on how these digital
> networks may transform the way we produce and consume research by reasons
> other than good/progress.
>
> Long life to educational forums like this one!
> Alfredo
>
> ________________________________________
> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> on behalf of Annalisa Aguilar <annalisa@unm.edu>
> Sent: 09 October 2017 22:45
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Publishers seek removal of millions of papers
>  from    ResearchGate
>
> Hi Mike,
>
>
> I've been watching this thread, but this is the first opportunity I've had
> to post so sorry I'm late to the conversation.
>
>
> It appears that the way XMCA is able to function under the radar (and
> rightfully so) is the assertion that this is an educational forum (and a
> long-standing one at that!) and we as scholars are required access to
> copyrighted material so that we can do our work, so this falls under fair
> use.
>
>
> Is that basically the gist of the matter for this copyright challenge by
> academic publishers?
>
>
> I ask because I am constructing a publishing model that might have similar
> challenges, and forearmed is forewarned. We had discussed it once.
>
>
> What I wonder is if the VC's who have created these social networks have
> gotten themselves caught in a raccoon trap? [http://image.sportsmansguide.
> com/adimgs/l/1/186667_ts.jpg ]
>
>
> These traps function by enticing the racoon with a shiny obect, but it
> can't get it out of the hole without letting go of the shiny object, and so
> it stays around trying to figure out how to get the shiny object out.
> Reaching in and letting go and reaching in and letting go. It's futile and
> impossible, if you are a raccoon that is.
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
>
> Annalisa
>
> [http://image.sportsmansguide.com/adimgs/l/1/186667_ts.jpg]
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> on behalf of mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu>
> Sent: Monday, October 9, 2017 10:01 AM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Publishers seek removal of millions of papers from
> ResearchGate
>
> Hi Anne Nelly-
>
> There are two unpublished studies of earlier eras of xmca on the website at
> lchcautobio.ucsd.edu. We have pretty good archives back to the mid 1980's
> but so far as I know, no one has take them as an object of study. I use
> them as
> a source of information about perennial discussion topics.
>
> Its open source!
> :-)
> mike
>
> On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 12:50 AM, PERRET-CLERMONT Anne-Nelly <
> Anne-Nelly.Perret-Clermont@unine.ch> wrote:
>
> > Mike
> > has someone written the history of LCHC and xmca and of its pioneering
> > technical/socio-cultural "educational" innovations?
> > Xmcy was the first electronic list I ever signed up to.
> >
> > Anne-Nelly
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De : <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of mike cole
> > <mcole@ucsd.edu>
> > Répondre à : "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
> >
> > Date : dimanche, 8 octobre 2017 22:35
> > À : "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> > Objet : [Xmca-l] Re: Publishers seek removal of millions of papers
> > from    ResearchGate
> >
> > Alfredo, Anne Nelly et al ---
> >
> > The difficulties to accessing academic research at play in this
> discussion
> > motivates my long time treatment of xlchc/xmca as an *educational *
> > facility.
> > If you check out the cluster map of xmca that tells you where people are
> > connecting from, it gives you are pretty good idea of who has interest
> and
> > access. ( https://clustrmaps.com/site/17i )
> >
> > A LOT of those visitors do not have access to the articles, never mind
> the
> > books, that we seek to discuss here in order to educate ourselves and our
> > students in fundamental questions about human development in its
> cultural,
> > historical, social contexts. If we do not post such materials, we are
> > sealed off from each other as in the past.
> >
> > Lets hope that going forward, MCA and this discussion group can hold
> itself
> > together as an educational community sufficiently to ward off the digital
> > overseers.
> >
> > Its not clear how to get to open access, but this has been lchc's way of
> > trying.
> >
> > mike
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 8, 2017 at 9:56 AM, Glassman, Michael <glassman.13@osu.edu>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > The trouble we are facing is that ademia.edu and researchgate are not
> > > organizations that were formed to serve the public good. They will only
> > > function as Open Educational Resources as long as it suits their needs.
> > > They are instead being funded by large amounts of venture capital.
> > > Eventually these people are going to want their profits.  What is scary
> > >is
> > > we cannot know what this means.  What happened with Facebook and the
> > > election is the canary in the coal mine (much bigger than a canary
> > > though).  For those who don't know what happened not so good sources
> used
> > > targeted advertising of Facebook, and my guess is Google as well, to
> > > manipulate outcomes.  Targeted advertising is when you discuss a trip
> to
> > > Bahamas in a gmail discussion and then the next time you log on to
> gmail
> > > there is an advertisement for a hotel in the Bahamas. Up to now it has
> > >been
> > > freaky but not really dangerous.  There is not much discussion of
> exactly
> > > what happened other than Russian (and my guess is other groups) used
> > > targeted advertising.  A guess how that happened. People all over the
> > > country were talking about Hillary Clinton's emails in the last few
> weeks
> > > of the campaign. Facebook is able to aggregate the people who were
> > >actually
> > > talking about this on their Facebook pages. They are also able to
> locate
> > > them according to region. Organizations then use this information to
> > >target
> > > people specifically in swing states with advertisements that are
> > >disguised
> > > as news items. So on Monday you write a comment, "I really wonder what
> is
> > > going on with Hillary's emails" and on Tuesday you get a directed
> > > advertisement with claims what is happening with Hillary's emails that
> > > claims legitimacy. This is incredibly powerful.  Mark Zuckerberg the
> > > founder of Facebook as said he won't allow this to happen again (at
> first
> > > he denied it) but I'm not so sure how.  Targeted advertising is how
> > > Facebook and Google make a lot of their money.
> > >
> > > I worry about the things academia.edu and researchgate.net might do
> > (full
> > > disclosure, I am on both because they are becoming the only way to
> reach
> > > many fellow researchers). What happens when the funds that have been
> > > feeding them money demand their profit?  Nobody would have predicted
> what
> > > happened with targeted advertising. How will research dissemination be
> > > manipulated?  I don't know what the solution to this is but we need to
> be
> > > very careful.
> > >
> > > I question why universities did not step into the breach, to create
> Open
> > > Educational Resources that were not beholden to profit. It's not like
> > >they
> > > didn't know this was coming and OER was a possibility.
> > >
> > >
> > > Michael
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@
> > > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of PERRET-CLERMONT Anne-Nelly
> > > Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2017 9:20 AM
> > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>;
> > > xmca-l@ucsd.edu
> > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Publishers seek removal of millions of papers
> from
> > > ResearchGate
> > >
> > > Thanks for these very interesting links.
> > >
> > > The new political line of the Swiss National Research Foundation (SNSF)
> > >on
> > > these issues is very interesting:
> > > "The results of research financed by public funds should be published
> > > electronically so that they are freely and immediately available
> without
> > > charge and can thus be reused by third parties, since they are
> considered
> > > as a public good. In support of the principle of Open Access, the SNSF
> > > expects grantees to make the results of the research projects it has
> > > supported accessible to the public".
> > > This will concern almost all scientists in Switzerland. See:
> > >
> > > http://www.snf.ch/en/theSNSF/research-policies/open-access/
> > > Pages/default.as
> > > px
> > >
> > > Anne-Nelly
> > >
> > >
> > > Prof. em. Anne-Nelly Perret-Clermont
> > > Institut de psychologie et éducation Faculté des lettres et sciences
> > > humaines Université de Neuchâtel Espace L. Agassiz 1,  CH- 2000
> Neuchâtel
> > > (Switzerland) <http://www2.unine.ch/ipe/publications/anne_nelly_
> > > perret_clermont>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Message d'origine-----
> > > De : <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of Alfredo Jornet
> Gil <
> > > a.j.gil@iped.uio.no> Répondre à : "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <
> > > xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> Date : dimanche, 8 octobre 2017 13:31 À : "
> > > xmca-l@ucsd.edu" <xmca-l@ucsd.edu>, "eXtended Mind, Culture,
> Activity" <
> > > xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> Objet : [Xmca-l] Re: Publishers seek removal
> of
> > > millions of
> > > papers  from    ResearchGate
> > >
> > > That's a complex matter, Peter. Thanks for sharing. I wonder what the
> > > views of others are. I am still forming mine, but would like to
> > >contribute
> > > with another resource to do so, an article from The Guardian on
> > >profitable
> > > business scientific publishing
> > >
> > > https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/jun/27/
> > > profitable-business-scienti
> > > fic-publishing-bad-for-science
> > >
> > > Alfredo
> > > ________________________________________
> > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> >
> > > on behalf of Peter Smagorinsky <smago@uga.edu>
> > > Sent: 07 October 2017 17:31
> > > To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu
> > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Publishers seek removal of millions of papers from
> > > ResearchGate
> > >
> > > https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/publishers-seek-removal-
> > > millions-
> > > papers-researchgate
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Publishers seek removal of millions of papers from ResearchGate
> > >
> > > Academic social network accused of infringing copyright on a massive
> > >scale
> > >
> > > Leading publishers are stepping up their fight against ResearchGate by
> > > ordering the academic social network to take down papers that they say
> > > infringe copyright.
> > >
> > > The move could see millions of articles removed from the site, as the
> > > publishers say up to 40 per cent of papers on ResearchGate are
> > >copyrighted.
> > >
> > > James Milne, a spokesman for the group of five academic publishers,
> which
> > > includes Elsevier, Wiley and Brill, said that the first batch of
> > >take-down
> > > notices would be sent "imminently".
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "We're not doing this in any way against the researchers, we're doing
> > >this
> > > against ResearchGate," he told Times Higher Education. The site was
> > > "clearly hosting and happily uploading material that they know they
> don't
> > > have the license or copyrights" to, and was "refusing to work with us
> to
> > > solve that problem", he added.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > According to a survey of academics released last year, Berlin-based
> > > ResearchGate is by some way the world's biggest academic social
> network,
> > > used by about 60 per cent of academics, particularly in the physical
> and
> > > life sciences, and has raised nearly $90 million (£68 million) in
> funding
> > > from investors, according to the website Crunchbase.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Publishers are seeing "anecdotal" evidence that the availability of
> > >papers
> > > on the site is eating into their revenues, said Dr Milne. "We have
> heard
> > > during the subscriptions renewal process that librarians are
> occasionally
> > > referencing ResearchGate as an alternative to resubscribing to
> journals,"
> > > he said.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > He attacked ResearchGate as being "backed by hundreds of millions of
> > > dollars [from venture capitalists,] who are seeking to make a profit
> from
> > > what [ResearchGate] do, which is upload copyright infringed material".
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "They put nothing back into the process for generating and validating
> and
> > > curating all that material," he said.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The publisher Elsevier drew a backlash from many academics in 2013 when
> > >it
> > > told users of Academia.edu, a rival to ResearchGate, to take down
> papers
> > >to
> > > which it had rights. Dr Milne stressed that this time, the publishers
> > >would
> > > not directly send take-down notices to academics. "We will work with
> > > ResearchGate on this, not researchers," he said, although the
> > >organisation
> > > would be communicating "en masse" with academics about how they can
> share
> > > their work properly.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > But for the publishers, sending out mass take-down notices is not a
> > > permanent solution. "That in itself doesn't solve the problem, because
> > > every day ResearchGate is uploading more and more material," said Dr
> > >Milne,
> > > trapping publishers in a "perpetual loop" of having to identify
> > >infringing
> > > papers. He argued that this would be confusing for researchers, as "one
> > >day
> > > there's content, and the next day there isn't", he said.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Elsevier and the American Chemical Society are therefore also taking
> > > ResearchGate to court where they hope to obtain a ruling that would
> stop
> > > ResearchGate "scraping content off the web, uploading it...and asking
> > > researchers to claim it" so that infringing material "is not in the
> > >public
> > > domain", he explained. The court claim would be lodged in Europe, he
> > >said.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > A ResearchGate spokeswoman declined to comment. The company's founder
> and
> > > chief executive, Ijad Madisch, has previously said that he "wouldn't
> > >mind"
> > > if copyrighted material was removed from the site, as researchers could
> > > continue to share papers privately.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > david.matthews@timeshighereducation.com<mailto:david.matthews@
> > > timeshighered
> > > ucation.com>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>