[Xmca-l] Re: RES: Re: Child Development: Understanding a Cultural Perpsective

[Rod Parker-Rees]

I am so glad you posted this, Mike!

I have been lurking around the edges of this discussion (not enough time to engage fully) and was trying to recall where I had come across the idea that we continue to be 'children' or novices in every new stage of our lives. I am now facing early retirement (like many UK universities we are having to cut costs!) and I am conscious of how much I have to learn about how this will work. I think the big difference between the way a young child experiences a new way of being in the world and the way this is experienced by an adult is that adults have gained some experience of deaing with change so have a variety of existing ways of thinking about what they are now facing. So our ability to develop (as cultures as well as as individuals) develops as we do more developing.

All the best,

Rod




-----Original Message-----
From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole
Sent: 21 May 2017 00:45
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: RES: Re: Child Development: Understanding a Cultural Perpsective

Ah, once in this tread I see how relevant it is. For now, I repeat the epigraph in the chapter on development in adulthood in the early versions of the cole & cole book on development.

*“We are born one time only, we can never start a new life equipped with the experience we've gained from the previous one. We leave childhood without knowing what youth is, we marry without knowing what it is to be married, and even when we enter old age, we don't know what it is we're heading for: the old are innocent children innocent of their old age. In that sense, man's world is the planet of inexperience”-* Milan Kundera, The art of the novel.

This passage fits my experience and may or may not resonate with yours. I think there are some pretty good theoretical reasons to think that it may bespeak an important continuity in development. Maybe ontogeny can usefully be thought of as a functional system for the reproduction of the human society. Gives grandma and grandpa something to worry about as they wile away their days. :-)

mike



On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 4:29 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:

> David- I stumbled into this conversation tardily but hope one day to
> get more deeply into the topics raised around the Vygtosky texts. In
> trying to follow the argument, i would be helped enormously if it were
> possible to site the sources of the texts in a way that is readily
> accessible.  If I want to read "Negative Phases of the Transitional
> Age", ​for example, is there a web site or an English language where
> one can go to read larger segments of the text?
>
> Access to the texts would help enormously in getting us, more or less,
> on the same page, both metaphorically and digitally at the same time.
>
> If this is complicated, perhaps Alfredo could organize a simple way to
> allow people rapid access to the texts.
>
> The time appears ripe to consider the question of the
> bio-social-cultural nature of human development again.
> Your careful work with the pedagogical essays appears to be a key text
> in figuring out Vygotsky's views and our own.
>
> At present i am trying to think my way through this terrain in order
> to put together a talk at the Piaget Society meetings in early June.
> Roy Pea and I are giving a talk there​. The conference theme is
> "technology and development."
>
> Quite naturally there is a great deal of overlap between that topic
> and this conversation. Being able to explore that overlap more closely
> would certainly be useful, personally speaking.
>
> mike
>
> On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 3:39 PM, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Thanks, Martin. I'm reading Vygotsky's lecture on "Negative Phases of
>> the Transitional Age", i.e. adolescence. Its' a late lecture, a
>> little under a year before he died. But in it he does argue that the
>> central neoformation of adolescence isn't sexuality or teenage
>> rebellion or any of the other behavioural symptoms that his
>> colleagues were focused on. He wants something that can generalize to
>> every other crisis as well, and he chooses what he calls
>> "schizoticism" which is probably what we would call today
>> "schizotypal personality disorder", except that for him it's not a
>> disorder at all, an in fact he argues that it is the children who
>> show only feeble schizotic symptoms or who refuse to show them who
>> are seriously disordered.
>> And he suggests that what generalizes to every other crisis is the
>> notion of a house divided against itself, what he calls "понятие о
>> расщеплении", or the concept of the differentiation, the division,
>> the split, just as you say.
>>
>> Weirdly, I think that your stable periods don't link together so well.
>> That's not just the lack of grammatical parallelism in the
>> nomenclature ("infancy", "toddler[hood]", "early/middle childhood"
>> "teenager[hood]"--I can see that you are trying to stay away from a
>> nomenclature that implies schooling on the one hand and use
>> common-sense folk categories on the other. I think it's because you
>> are using a model of stable periods based on world-building rather
>> than on language, and the worlds of "Greatwe", "irresistible
>> invitations", "appearances", etc don't really seem linked the way
>> that physical-biological-psychological differentiation are linked.
>>
>> Your stable periods work well for your project (yes, culture, but
>> within that getting your students to rediscover both the strengths
>> and weakness of Piaget). But I think they won't work so well for mine
>> (yes, language, and within language and the "world-building" function
>> of language, distinguishing what Halliday would call the Experiential
>> rather than the Logical metafunction--the feeling/thought of what's
>> happening rather than the whole question of how it all fits
>> together.)
>>
>> I didn't really mean to inflict my book chapter on poor
>> Henry--publishers are now trying to get authors to shoulder almost
>> ALL of the sales as well as the editing work, and one of the things
>> they do is provide all these neat links that you stick in your
>> signature when you take part in a discussion list; my book sales have
>> been, like two or three copies a year, so I thought I'd try it. I
>> notice that (for all that real, unfeigned modesty and humility),
>> Henry knows onewhole hell of a lot more about Langacker on the one
>> hand and Wundt on the other than I do (I have read bits of both but I don't have anything like his understanding of either).
>>
>> But there really is something I really do share with Henry that I
>> think explains right away how he responded to my book chapter. It's this:
>> Vygotsky talks about "communication" and "generalization" (or "sharing"
>> and
>> "about that shared"); Halliday about "dialogue" and "narrative". It
>> seems to me that by whatever name we give them, this linguistic
>> woofing and warping are the weft that join the stable periods and the crises together.
>>
>> The difference is that during stable periods, the
>> communication/sharing/dialogue threads are in front and the
>> generalization/about-that-shared/narrative
>> threads go in back. But during the crises, the child is trying to
>> "turn the tables" on the environment, so that the child is source of
>> development and the environment is site. During the crisis, we see
>> all those loose threads, all those knots and breaks--and yet also,
>> there is the same pattern, albeit like a photographic negative--in
>> the back of the carpet.
>> --
>> David Kellogg
>> Macquarie University
>>
>> "The Great Globe and All Who It Inherit:
>> Narrative and Dialogue in Story-telling with Vygotsky, Halliday, and
>> Shakespeare"
>>
>> Free Chapters Downloadable at:
>>
>> https://www.sensepublishers.com/media/2096-the-great-
>> globe-and-all-who-it-inherit.pdf
>>
>> Recent Article: Thinking of feeling: Hasan, Vygotsky, and Some
>> Ruminations on the Development of Narrative in Korean Children
>>
>> Free E-print Downloadable at:
>>
>> http://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/8Vaq4HpJMi55DzsAyFCf/full
>> On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 7:51 AM, Martin John Packer <
>> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co
>> > wrote:
>>
>> > Diagram attached, I hope.
>> >
>> > Martin
>> >
>> >
>> > > On May 19, 2017, at 4:34 PM, HENRY SHONERD <hshonerd@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Martin,
>> > > I’m sorry, but I don’t think that diagram came through. Also I
>> > > too am
>> > interested in what you think of Shpet.
>> > > HJenry
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >> On May 19, 2017, at 9:45 AM, Martin John Packer <
>> > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> Hi David,
>> > >>
>> > >> Here’s how I handled the matter of the age periods: the stages
>> > >> and
>> > crises; tell me what you think.
>> > >>
>> > >> Infancy - A Practical Understanding of the World Infancy -
>> > >> Towards Biological Differentiation Toddlerhood - A World of
>> > >> Irresistible Invitations Toddlerhood - Towards Psychological
>> > >> Differentiation Early Childhood  - How Things Appear, And How
>> > >> They Are Early Childhood  - Towards Inner and Outer Middle
>> > >> Childhood - Understanding Institutional Reality Middle Childhood
>> > >> - Towards the Actual and the Possible The Teenage Years -
>> > >> Adolescent, or Adult?
>> > >> The Teenage Years - Towards Adulthood
>> > >>
>> > >> The “Towards” in these chapter titles reflects the fact that I
>> > >> needed
>> > to treat each stage in two chapters, and there was usually less to
>> > say about each crisis than about each stage, so I couldn’t dedicate
>> > a whole chapter to each crisis. Here’s how I described the notions of ‘stage’
>> and
>> > ‘transition’:
>> > >>
>> > >> "Stages are qualitatively distinct from one another, not only in
>> > >> the
>> > form of intelligence that the child employs (as Piaget noted), but
>> > also
>> in
>> > the child’s way of being in the world. Each stage involves a
>> > specific
>> way
>> > of relating to the world and relating to self, and as a result of
>> > this a new way of experiencing and understanding.
>> > >>
>> > >> "Transitions are those times when new properties rapidly emerge.
>> > >> A
>> > transition is a point of inflection, a crisis. In a transition
>> > there is
>> a
>> > dramatic change in the child’s way of being in the world, so that
>> > she discovers new possibilities in that world and gains a new sense
>> > of
>> herself:
>> > of her abilities, her capacities. During the stage that follows,
>> > the
>> child
>> > progressively masters this new way of living in the world. These
>> > transitions are truly changes not only in the child but in the
>> > whole child-caregiver-niche system of which she is a component.”
>> > >>
>> > >> And the diagram below (if it comes through) illustrates the
>> > >> sequence
>> (I
>> > think the third should read Appearance & Reality).
>> > >>
>> > >> Martin
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> [cid:FAACC3A0-B984-4539-B8E7-05391373CD7F]
>> > >>
>> > >> On May 18, 2017, at 7:27 PM, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com
>> > <mailto:dkellogg60@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> Martin, I think if I'd written something like that I'd be pretty
>> > shameless
>> > >> too. (A propos--or by the bye--do you have a publisher for the
>> > >> Shpet schtick you are up to...?)
>> > >>
>> > >> Here's something for the revised edition. The way Vygotsky
>> > >> explains
>> > "Great
>> > >> We" in the Pedological Lectures is a little different and a lot
>> > wittier. He
>> > >> says it is a "Grandwe" in the sense of your Grandpa--that is,
>> > >> the
>> "we"
>> > was
>> > >> there before you were even a gleam in your Daddy's eye.
>> > >> (Vygotsky
>> likes
>> > to
>> > >> address the students with "You and we").
>> > >>
>> > >> I have been thinking how to "popularize" the age periods without
>> > >> vulgarizing them (you know, what Bruner says about being able to
>> teach
>> > >> anything to anybody in some honest way).
>> > >>
>> > >> You and we (our little Grandwe) know perfectly well that
>> > >> Vygotsky
>> > measured
>> > >> that zone of proximal development in years (it's a "next" zone
>> > >> of development, so it doesn't make any sense to talk about it unless:
>> > >>
>> > >> a) you have the age periods and
>> > >>
>> > >> b) you have some set of problems--not the Binet problems!--that
>> > >> will correlate in some non-arbitrary way to the next age period.
>> > >>
>> > >> That means that the "next zone of development" for Vygotsky
>> > >> studies
>> is
>> > not
>> > >> to try to turn him into a failed Gestaltist (pace Yasnitsky and
>> > >> van
>> der
>> > >> Veer) but rather to try to figure out some way to get people to
>> > >> take
>> the
>> > >> age periods seriously no matter how busy and how impatient with
>> > Vygotsky's
>> > >> discursive and apparently indecisive formulations they are.
>> > >>
>> > >> What do you think of this?
>> > >>
>> > >> Birth--Social Situation of Development: Instinct confronted by
>> > >> intersubjectivity. Central Neoformation: "Pre-we"
>> > >> Infancy--SSD: Physiologically independent but biologically dependent:
>> > >> CNF: "Grandwe"
>> > >> One--SSD: Proto-speech confronted by proper speech. CNF: "Pre-speech"
>> > >> Early Childhood--SSD: Biologically independent but
>> > >> interpersonally
>> > >> (interactionally) dependent. CNF: "Grandspeech"
>> > >> Three--SSD: Affect confronted by the 'antipode' of will.  CNF:
>> > "Pre-will"
>> > >> Preschool--SSD: Interpersonally independent but psychologically
>> > dependent
>> > >> ('reactive' learning). CNF: "Grandwill"
>> > >> Seven--SSD: Inner personality confronted by outer persona. CNF:
>> "Pre-me"
>> > >> School Age: Psychologically independent but intellectually
>> > >> (academically) dependent. CNF: "Grandme"
>> > >> Thirteen: Original thinking confronted by imitation. CNF:
>> "Pre-concepts"
>> > >> Adolescence: Intellectually independent but socioeconomically
>> dependent.
>> > >> CNF: "Grandconcepts" (nontheoretical concepts, tinged with
>> > >> concrete
>> > >> thinking)
>> > >> Seventeen SSD: In the USSR, school leaving. CNF: "Pre-Life"
>> > >>
>> > >> You could write the Crises on your palm and the Stable Periods
>> > >> along
>> > each
>> > >> finger. (Hard to read it, though....)
>> > >>
>> > >> --
>> > >> David Kellogg
>> > >> Macquarie University
>> > >>
>> > >> "The Great Globe and All Who It Inherit:
>> > >> Narrative and Dialogue in Story-telling with Vygotsky, Halliday,
>> > >> and Shakespeare"
>> > >>
>> > >> Free Chapters Downloadable at:
>> > >>
>> > >> https://www.sensepublishers.com/media/2096-the-great-globe-
>> > and-all-who-it-inherit.pdf
>> > >>
>> > >> Recent Article: Thinking of feeling: Hasan, Vygotsky, and Some
>> > Ruminations
>> > >> on the Development of Narrative in Korean Children
>> > >>
>> > >> Free E-print Downloadable at:
>> > >>
>> > >> http://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/8Vaq4HpJMi55DzsAyFCf/full
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 9:10 AM, Maria Judith Sucupira Costa
>> > >> Lins < mariasucupiralins@terra.com.br> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> Martin
>> > >> Thank you for the chapter. Maria
>> > >>
>> > >> -----Mensagem original-----
>> > >> De: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@
>> > >> mailman.ucsd.edu] Em nome de Martin John Packer Enviada em:
>> > >> quarta-feira, 17 de maio de 2017 20:05
>> > >> Para: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> > >> Assunto: [Xmca-l] Re: Child Development: Understanding a
>> > >> Cultural Perpsective
>> > >>
>> > >> Thanks Alfredo. It was fun to write, and it would not have been
>> possible
>> > >> except for what I have learned over the years from some very
>> > >> smart
>> > people,
>> > >> a
>> > >> number of whom hang out on this very discussion group.
>> > >>
>> > >> Martin
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> On May 17, 2017, at 5:48 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil
>> > >> <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no<mailto:a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> Thanks for shamelessly sharing your work, Martin. The chapter
>> > >> looks
>> > great.
>> > >> I
>> > >> like the way it draws connections throughout diverse theories,
>> > emphasising
>> > >> common ground across dual systems theory, dynamic field theory,
>> > >> and cultural psychology.
>> > >>
>> > >> Alfredo
>> > >> ________________________________________
>> > >> From:
>> > >> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu<mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailma
>> n.ucsd.edu>
>> > >> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu<mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailm
>> an.ucsd.edu
>> > >>
>> > >> on
>> > >> behalf of Martin John Packer
>> > >> <mpacker@uniandes.edu.co<mailto:mpacker@uniandes.edu.co>>
>> > >> Sent: 18 May 2017 00:10
>> > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> > >> Subject: [Xmca-l]  Child Development: Understanding a Cultural
>> > Perpsective
>> > >>
>> > >> A few months ago I shamelessly promoted my new textbook, Child
>> > Development:
>> > >> Understanding a Cultural Perspective, published by Sage at only
>> > >> $46
>> for
>> > the
>> > >> paperback edition, $33 or less for the various electronic editions.
>> > >>
>> > >> There is now a sample chapter available online: Chapter 5, one
>> > >> of the
>> > two
>> > >> chapters on infancy:
>> > >>
>> > >> <https://us.sagepub.com/en-us/nam/child-development/book2535
>> > 43%20#preview>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> Martin
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
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