[Xmca-l] Re: RES: Re: Child Development: Understanding a Cultural Perpsective

Sat May 20 17:14:17 PDT 2017

We're all learning about proper dealing with members of frontline communities in different intersections of resistance...
Peg
-----Original Message-----
From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole
Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2017 8:07 PM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: RES: Re: Child Development: Understanding a Cultural Perpsective

:-) Lets hear it for children's rights, Peg!
mike

On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 4:48 PM, Peg Griffin <Peg.Griffin@att.net> wrote:

> A tad tangential, but maybe interesting nevertheless:
> "4-Year-Olds Don’t Act Like Donald Trump  By ALISON GOPNIK  Comparing 
> our president to a child is inaccurate and unfair to children."
> Etc. at https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/20/opinion/sunday/4-year-
> olds-children-trump-gopnik.html?action=click&pgtype=
> Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-
> top-region&region=opinion-c-col-top-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-top-re
> gion
>
> Peg
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@ 
> mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Martin John Packer
> Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2017 6:56 PM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: RES: Re: Child Development: Understanding a 
> Cultural Perpsective
>
> Interesting, David. I’m not sure that I agree with LSV’s answer, here, 
> or in the passage you cite in your message to Andy. At least, if we 
> are to equate pedology with developmental psychology, or with 
> developmental science. For one thing, the situation of adulthood is 
> certainly not always stable. For another, the ‘line’ of an adult's 
> development may be different from that of a child, but I would have 
> thought that Vygotsky himself would have agreed that there is no 
> single line to the development of a child, or of children. The line of 
> development, I think, varies from stage to stage, and from one developmental context to another.
>
> Martin
>
>
>
>
> On May 20, 2017, at 4:51 PM, David Kellogg 
> <dkellogg60@gmail.com<mailto:d kellogg60@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Martin:
>
> This is from the Q&A at the Psychotechnic Conference in November 1930.
> Mikhaillov and Spielrein (Isaac, not Sabine) have just asked questions 
> about the relationship of pedology to other sciences (especially 
> lifelong education).
>
> Jerusalimcik: How does Comrade Vygotsky conceive of pedology: only as 
> a science of the child or as a science of the development of the human 
> being right to the end of his life?
>
> Vygotsky: Concerning the question of Comrade Jerusalimcik, is pedology 
> the science of the child or of the development of the person right to 
> the end of his life? I think--and, again, it seems to me that there is 
> an objective basis for this idea--that pedology is the science of the 
> child in development and not that of the person in development right 
> to the end of his life. I think that those who wish to extend pedology 
> from the cradle to the grave, those who want to put on the same plane 
> the development of the child and the development which occurs with a 
> child, without realizing it are making the same mistake that the old 
> authors made when they said that the child is a small adult: that is, 
> they deny the qualitative specificity of the process of development in 
> the child compared to that processes and the changes that are produced in a situation that is relatively stable.
>
> On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 9:18 AM, Martin John Packer < 
> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co<mailto:mpacker@uniandes.edu.co>
> wrote:
>
> Hi Alfredo,
>
> I completely agree with you. If you’ll allow me to cite myself again…
>
> Martin
>
>
> A strong case could be made that this book should have considered the 
> entire human lifespan. Developmental researchers have tended to assume 
> that the endpoint of development is the start of adulthood, and that 
> development is the process of the child achieving adult status. 
> However, it should now be clear to the reader that human psychological 
> development involves the entire span of human life, the cycle of ontogenesis from birth to death.
> This cycle should be understood not solely in terms of the individual 
> who lives and dies, but also in terms of the social relations of 
> reproduction in a community.
>
> There has been an unprecedented increase in life expectancy (see 
> figure below), and this book has told only part of the story of the 
> human life cycle. As young people become parents and then 
> grandparents, or as they become teachers, coaches, or recognized 
> community figures, their lives intersect and interact with those of 
> children, both their own and those of other people. The stages from 
> infant to adolescent are not separate and distinct from later stages 
> of the lifecycle. We have seen that parents and caregivers play a 
> crucial role in a young child’s development. Even death has an 
> intimate connection to birth: human life truly is a cycle, albeit one that extends as a helix through time.
>
> Viewed this way, the human life cycle is a process in which:
>
> persons are formed and dissolved, move between dependent impotence and 
> independent authority, divide and multiply their being through 
> relations with others, know more and less about the world, and acquire 
> and lose the capacity to change it. (Robertson 1996, p. 591)
>
> It is worth emphasizing one more time that nature and culture are not 
> opposed but operate together, and we can see this in the fact that the 
> human lifespan is longer today than at many times in the past, and in 
> many parts of the world it is growing even longer, probably because 
> nutrition and healthcare are postponing the senescence programmed into 
> our genes. As a result, many infants will interact not only with 
> parents but grandparents and even great-grandparents, as never before 
> in human existence. This intergenerational contact and interaction 
> creates opportunities for a variety of influences on the child, 
> including mentorship, advice, alliances, and a richer density of social relations.
>
>
>
> On May 19, 2017, at 5:32 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no 
> <mailto:a.j.gil@iped.uio.no> <mailto:a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>> wrote:
>
> These seem very interesting contributions in that they bring forth 
> structural aspects necessary for a *developmental* explanation. But, 
> as someone educated in general psychology and the learning sciences, 
> but who still has much to learn from developmental psychology, I 
> always wonder why these characterisations often refer to 
> characteristics of the child and tend to end in *adulthood*, as in 
> Martin's sequence, but tend to say nothing about adult change in that 
> relation. (By the way, David, can you clarify or refer us where we could get a better grasp of why "pre-life"
> would be an adequate label for a reformation???)
>
> I can understand that there are different disciplines within 
> developmental psychology, one of which is concerned with child (and 
> not adult) development, just as other disciplines may deal with adult 
> development, professional development, etc. But we read in Martin's 
> own quotations that, " transitions [across periods] are truly changes 
> not only in the child but in the whole child-caregiver-niche system of which she is a component"
>
> If these transitions truly are transitions for the 
> child-caregiver-niche system, then the issue of age periods also and 
> at the same time brings with it not only the issue of niche periods 
> (which I see can be addressed with the notion of Social Situation of 
> Development and ZPD), but also the issue of adult development as part 
> of that system. Does not it? But then, is it about "age"? I certainly 
> feel and can recognise that I am deeply changed in and through 
> educating. I am not the same person I was before I begun my 
> participant ethnography as an assistant teacher at an arts-based 
> elementary school. Certainly with regard to how I organise my praxis 
> in a classroom, it could be said that many of the primary functions 
> that characterise my behavior have been re-organised leading to new formations (e.g., of listening, caring, orienting, responding).
>
> If the "primitive" but also adult "Kaffir" about which Vygotsky speaks 
> in his writings may possibly shift from "dreaming" to "thinking" as a 
> means to achieve the same higher psychological function, namely 
> decision making, is it "age" periods what should be the focus?
>
> These are not rhetorical but genuine questions from someone hoping to 
> learn from/with you all.
>
> Alfredo
> ________________________________________
> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu<mailto:xmca-l-bounces@
> mailman.ucsd.edu><mailto:xmca-l-bounces@
> mailman.ucsd.edu<http://mailman.ucsd.edu/>> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.
> edu<mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu><mailto:xmca-l-bounces@
> mailman.ucsd.edu<http://mailman.ucsd.edu/>>> on behalf of Andy Blunden 
> <
> ablunden@mira.net<mailto:ablunden@mira.net><mailto:
> ablunden@mira.net<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>
> Sent: 19 May 2017 18:02
> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu<mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu><mailto:
> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: RES: Re: Child Development: Understanding a 
> Cultural Perpsective
>
> Like
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Andy Blunden
> http://home.mira.net/~andy
> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
>
> On 20/05/2017 1:45 AM, Martin John Packer wrote:
> Hi David,
>
> Here’s how I handled the matter of the age periods: the stages and 
> crises; tell me what you think.
>
> Infancy - A Practical Understanding of the World Infancy - Towards 
> Biological Differentiation Toddlerhood - A World of Irresistible 
> Invitations Toddlerhood - Towards Psychological Differentiation Early 
> Childhood  - How Things Appear, And How They Are Early Childhood  - 
> Towards Inner and Outer Middle Childhood - Understanding Institutional 
> Reality Middle Childhood - Towards the Actual and the Possible The 
> Teenage Years - Adolescent, or Adult?
> The Teenage Years - Towards Adulthood
>
> The “Towards” in these chapter titles reflects the fact that I needed 
> to treat each stage in two chapters, and there was usually less to say 
> about each crisis than about each stage, so I couldn’t dedicate a 
> whole chapter to each crisis. Here’s how I described the notions of 
> ‘stage’ and
> ‘transition’:
>
> "Stages are qualitatively distinct from one another, not only in the 
> form of intelligence that the child employs (as Piaget noted), but 
> also in the child’s way of being in the world. Each stage involves a 
> specific way of relating to the world and relating to self, and as a 
> result of this a new way of experiencing and understanding.
>
> "Transitions are those times when new properties rapidly emerge. A 
> transition is a point of inflection, a crisis. In a transition there 
> is a dramatic change in the child’s way of being in the world, so that 
> she discovers new possibilities in that world and gains a new sense of herself:
> of her abilities, her capacities. During the stage that follows, the 
> child progressively masters this new way of living in the world. These 
> transitions are truly changes not only in the child but in the whole 
> child-caregiver-niche system of which she is a component.”
>
> And the diagram below (if it comes through) illustrates the sequence 
> (I think the third should read Appearance & Reality).
>
> Martin
>
>
> [cid:FAACC3A0-B984-4539-B8E7-05391373CD7F]
>
> On May 18, 2017, at 7:27 PM, David Kellogg 
> <dkellogg60@gmail.com<mailto:d kellogg60@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Martin, I think if I'd written something like that I'd be pretty 
> shameless too. (A propos--or by the bye--do you have a publisher for 
> the Shpet schtick you are up to...?)
>
> Here's something for the revised edition. The way Vygotsky explains 
> "Great We" in the Pedological Lectures is a little different and a lot 
> wittier. He says it is a "Grandwe" in the sense of your Grandpa--that 
> is, the "we" was there before you were even a gleam in your Daddy's 
> eye. (Vygotsky likes to address the students with "You and we").
>
> I have been thinking how to "popularize" the age periods without 
> vulgarizing them (you know, what Bruner says about being able to teach 
> anything to anybody in some honest way).
>
> You and we (our little Grandwe) know perfectly well that Vygotsky 
> measured that zone of proximal development in years (it's a "next" 
> zone of development, so it doesn't make any sense to talk about it unless:
>
> a) you have the age periods and
>
> b) you have some set of problems--not the Binet problems!--that will 
> correlate in some non-arbitrary way to the next age period.
>
> That means that the "next zone of development" for Vygotsky studies is 
> not to try to turn him into a failed Gestaltist (pace Yasnitsky and 
> van der
> Veer) but rather to try to figure out some way to get people to take 
> the age periods seriously no matter how busy and how impatient with 
> Vygotsky's discursive and apparently indecisive formulations they are.
>
> What do you think of this?
>
> Birth--Social Situation of Development: Instinct confronted by 
> intersubjectivity. Central Neoformation: "Pre-we"
> Infancy--SSD: Physiologically independent but biologically dependent:
> CNF: "Grandwe"
> One--SSD: Proto-speech confronted by proper speech. CNF: "Pre-speech"
> Early Childhood--SSD: Biologically independent but interpersonally
> (interactionally) dependent. CNF: "Grandspeech"
> Three--SSD: Affect confronted by the 'antipode' of will.  CNF: "Pre-will"
> Preschool--SSD: Interpersonally independent but psychologically 
> dependent ('reactive' learning). CNF: "Grandwill"
> Seven--SSD: Inner personality confronted by outer persona. CNF: "Pre-me"
> School Age: Psychologically independent but intellectually
> (academically) dependent. CNF: "Grandme"
> Thirteen: Original thinking confronted by imitation. CNF: "Pre-concepts"
> Adolescence: Intellectually independent but socioeconomically dependent.
> CNF: "Grandconcepts" (nontheoretical concepts, tinged with concrete
> thinking)
> Seventeen SSD: In the USSR, school leaving. CNF: "Pre-Life"
>
> You could write the Crises on your palm and the Stable Periods along 
> each finger. (Hard to read it, though....)
>
> --
> David Kellogg
> Macquarie University
>
> "The Great Globe and All Who It Inherit:
> Narrative and Dialogue in Story-telling with Vygotsky, Halliday, and 
> Shakespeare"
>
> Free Chapters Downloadable at:
>
> https://www.sensepublishers.com/media/2096-the-great-
> globe-and-all-who-it-inherit.pdf
>
> Recent Article: Thinking of feeling: Hasan, Vygotsky, and Some 
> Ruminations on the Development of Narrative in Korean Children
>
> Free E-print Downloadable at:
>
> http://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/8Vaq4HpJMi55DzsAyFCf/full
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 9:10 AM, Maria Judith Sucupira Costa Lins < 
> mariasucupiralins@terra.com.br> wrote:
>
> Martin
> Thank you for the chapter. Maria
>
> -----Mensagem original-----
> De: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@ 
> mailman.ucsd.edu] Em nome de Martin John Packer Enviada em: 
> quarta-feira,
> 17 de maio de 2017 20:05
> Para: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> Assunto: [Xmca-l] Re: Child Development: Understanding a Cultural 
> Perpsective
>
> Thanks Alfredo. It was fun to write, and it would not have been 
> possible except for what I have learned over the years from some very 
> smart people, a number of whom hang out on this very discussion group.
>
> Martin
>
>
>
>
> On May 17, 2017, at 5:48 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no 
> <mailto:a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>> wrote:
>
> Thanks for shamelessly sharing your work, Martin. The chapter looks great.
> I
> like the way it draws connections throughout diverse theories, 
> emphasising common ground across dual systems theory, dynamic field 
> theory, and cultural psychology.
>
> Alfredo
> ________________________________________
> From:
> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu<mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > 
> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu<mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.ed
> u>>
> on
> behalf of Martin John Packer
> <mpacker@uniandes.edu.co<mailto:mpacker@uniandes.edu.co>>
> Sent: 18 May 2017 00:10
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: [Xmca-l]  Child Development: Understanding a Cultural 
> Perpsective
>
> A few months ago I shamelessly promoted my new textbook, Child Development:
> Understanding a Cultural Perspective, published by Sage at only $46 
> for the paperback edition, $33 or less for the various electronic editions.
>
> There is now a sample chapter available online: Chapter 5, one of the 
> two chapters on infancy:
>
> <https://us.sagepub.com/en-us/nam/child-development/book253543%20#prev
> iew>
>
>
> Martin
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> David Kellogg
> Macquarie University
>
> "The Great Globe and All Who It Inherit:
> Narrative and Dialogue in Story-telling with Vygotsky, Halliday, and 
> Shakespeare"
>
> Free Chapters Downloadable at:
>
> https://www.sensepublishers.com/media/2096-the-great-
> globe-and-all-who-it-inherit.pdf
>
> Recent Article: Thinking of feeling: Hasan, Vygotsky, and Some 
> Ruminations on the Development of Narrative in Korean Children
>
> Free E-print Downloadable at:
>
> http://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/8Vaq4HpJMi55DzsAyFCf/full
>
>
>
>