[Xmca-l] Re: RES: Re: Child Development: Understanding a Cultural Perpsective

Fri May 19 16:07:10 PDT 2017

Alfredo:

Just two quick points, and then I shall get back to Vygotsky--we are having
our weekly on-line seminar today here and in Seoul, and it's all about the
Pedology of the Adolescent and "The Negative Phase of the Transitional Age".

First--I don't think pre-life or any of the terms I offered are "adequate
labels" for the neoformations. In fact, "neoformation" is not an adequate
label either (Vygotsky takes it from geology!) In Vygotsky, the label is
just a place holder, it's a kind of mnemonic, a way of remembering
something that hasn't actually even been really said yet. "The word is only
ready when the concept is," remember?

Second--and relatedly--I don't think Vygotsky would agree that concept
formation is the end of child development. Concept formation takes place in
adolescence. But child development ends at eighteen, and there's a whole
crisis at seventeen, to do with school leaving: the child is now
intellectually independent, but entering a world where a good deal of that
critical thinking that went into concept formation has to be utterly
forgotten. Maybe that's the natural state of adult human beings--not a
stable period, but a crisis, in which we are socio-economically
independent, but ruthlessly exploited and brutally oppressed.

But, as Vygotsky says, that is another form of development, not child
development, and it obeys other laws. Adults are not senile children; they
too have a future in mind.

-- 
David Kellogg
Macquarie University

"The Great Globe and All Who It Inherit:
Narrative and Dialogue in Story-telling with
Vygotsky, Halliday, and Shakespeare"

Free Chapters Downloadable at:

https://www.sensepublishers.com/media/2096-the-great-globe-and-all-who-it-inherit.pdf

Recent Article: Thinking of feeling: Hasan, Vygotsky, and Some Ruminations
on the Development of Narrative in Korean Children

Free E-print Downloadable at:

http://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/8Vaq4HpJMi55DzsAyFCf/full

On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 8:43 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
wrote:

> And, in anticipating the issue of concept development (for I am aware
> Vygotsky would note that it is the function of concept formation that marks
> the "end" of the stages), what are good examples of research linking
> changes in ideology with changes in child transitions?
>
> Thanks,
> Alfredo
> ________________________________________
> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
> Sent: 20 May 2017 00:32
> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu; ablunden@mira.net
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: RES: Re: Child Development: Understanding a Cultural
> Perpsective
>
> These seem very interesting contributions in that they bring forth
> structural aspects necessary for a *developmental* explanation. But, as
> someone educated in general psychology and the learning sciences, but who
> still has much to learn from developmental psychology, I always wonder why
> these characterisations often refer to characteristics of the child and
> tend to end in *adulthood*, as in Martin's sequence, but tend to say
> nothing about adult change in that relation. (By the way, David, can you
> clarify or refer us where we could get a better grasp of why "pre-life"
> would be an adequate label for a reformation???)
>
> I can understand that there are different disciplines within developmental
> psychology, one of which is concerned with child (and not adult)
> development, just as other disciplines may deal with adult development,
> professional development, etc. But we read in Martin's own quotations that,
> " transitions [across periods] are truly changes not only in the child but
> in the whole child-caregiver-niche system of which she is a component"
>
> If these transitions truly are transitions for the child-caregiver-niche
> system, then the issue of age periods also and at the same time brings with
> it not only the issue of niche periods (which I see can be addressed with
> the notion of Social Situation of Development and ZPD), but also the issue
> of adult development as part of that system. Does not it? But then, is it
> about "age"? I certainly feel and can recognise that I am deeply changed in
> and through educating. I am not the same person I was before I begun my
> participant ethnography as an assistant teacher at an arts-based elementary
> school. Certainly with regard to how I organise my praxis in a classroom,
> it could be said that many of the primary functions that characterise my
> behavior have been re-organised leading to new formations (e.g., of
> listening, caring, orienting, responding).
>
> If the "primitive" but also adult "Kaffir" about which Vygotsky speaks in
> his writings may possibly shift from "dreaming" to "thinking" as a means to
> achieve the same higher psychological function, namely decision making, is
> it "age" periods what should be the focus?
>
> These are not rhetorical but genuine questions from someone hoping to
> learn from/with you all.
>
> Alfredo
> ________________________________________
> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> on behalf of Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
> Sent: 19 May 2017 18:02
> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: RES: Re: Child Development: Understanding a Cultural
> Perpsective
>
> Like
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Andy Blunden
> http://home.mira.net/~andy
> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
>
> On 20/05/2017 1:45 AM, Martin John Packer wrote:
> > Hi David,
> >
> > Here’s how I handled the matter of the age periods: the stages and
> crises; tell me what you think.
> >
> > Infancy - A Practical Understanding of the World
> > Infancy - Towards Biological Differentiation
> > Toddlerhood - A World of Irresistible Invitations
> > Toddlerhood - Towards Psychological Differentiation
> > Early Childhood  - How Things Appear, And How They Are
> > Early Childhood  - Towards Inner and Outer
> > Middle Childhood - Understanding Institutional Reality
> > Middle Childhood - Towards the Actual and the Possible
> > The Teenage Years - Adolescent, or Adult?
> > The Teenage Years - Towards Adulthood
> >
> > The “Towards” in these chapter titles reflects the fact that I needed to
> treat each stage in two chapters, and there was usually less to say about
> each crisis than about each stage, so I couldn’t dedicate a whole chapter
> to each crisis. Here’s how I described the notions of ‘stage’ and
> ‘transition’:
> >
> > "Stages are qualitatively distinct from one another, not only in the
> form of intelligence that the child employs (as Piaget noted), but also in
> the child’s way of being in the world. Each stage involves a specific way
> of relating to the world and relating to self, and as a result of this a
> new way of experiencing and understanding.
> >
> > "Transitions are those times when new properties rapidly emerge. A
> transition is a point of inflection, a crisis. In a transition there is a
> dramatic change in the child’s way of being in the world, so that she
> discovers new possibilities in that world and gains a new sense of herself:
> of her abilities, her capacities. During the stage that follows, the child
> progressively masters this new way of living in the world. These
> transitions are truly changes not only in the child but in the whole
> child-caregiver-niche system of which she is a component.”
> >
> > And the diagram below (if it comes through) illustrates the sequence (I
> think the third should read Appearance & Reality).
> >
> > Martin
> >
> >
> > [cid:FAACC3A0-B984-4539-B8E7-05391373CD7F]
> >
> > On May 18, 2017, at 7:27 PM, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com<mailto:
> dkellogg60@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Martin, I think if I'd written something like that I'd be pretty
> shameless
> > too. (A propos--or by the bye--do you have a publisher for the Shpet
> > schtick you are up to...?)
> >
> > Here's something for the revised edition. The way Vygotsky explains
> "Great
> > We" in the Pedological Lectures is a little different and a lot wittier.
> He
> > says it is a "Grandwe" in the sense of your Grandpa--that is, the "we"
> was
> > there before you were even a gleam in your Daddy's eye. (Vygotsky likes
> to
> > address the students with "You and we").
> >
> > I have been thinking how to "popularize" the age periods without
> > vulgarizing them (you know, what Bruner says about being able to teach
> > anything to anybody in some honest way).
> >
> > You and we (our little Grandwe) know perfectly well that Vygotsky
> measured
> > that zone of proximal development in years (it's a "next" zone of
> > development, so it doesn't make any sense to talk about it unless:
> >
> > a) you have the age periods and
> >
> > b) you have some set of problems--not the Binet problems!--that will
> > correlate in some non-arbitrary way to the next age period.
> >
> > That means that the "next zone of development" for Vygotsky studies is
> not
> > to try to turn him into a failed Gestaltist (pace Yasnitsky and van der
> > Veer) but rather to try to figure out some way to get people to take the
> > age periods seriously no matter how busy and how impatient with
> Vygotsky's
> > discursive and apparently indecisive formulations they are.
> >
> > What do you think of this?
> >
> > Birth--Social Situation of Development: Instinct confronted by
> > intersubjectivity. Central Neoformation: "Pre-we"
> > Infancy--SSD: Physiologically independent but biologically dependent:
> > CNF: "Grandwe"
> > One--SSD: Proto-speech confronted by proper speech. CNF: "Pre-speech"
> > Early Childhood--SSD: Biologically independent but interpersonally
> > (interactionally) dependent. CNF: "Grandspeech"
> > Three--SSD: Affect confronted by the 'antipode' of will.  CNF: "Pre-will"
> > Preschool--SSD: Interpersonally independent but psychologically dependent
> > ('reactive' learning). CNF: "Grandwill"
> > Seven--SSD: Inner personality confronted by outer persona. CNF: "Pre-me"
> > School Age: Psychologically independent but intellectually
> > (academically) dependent. CNF: "Grandme"
> > Thirteen: Original thinking confronted by imitation. CNF: "Pre-concepts"
> > Adolescence: Intellectually independent but socioeconomically dependent.
> > CNF: "Grandconcepts" (nontheoretical concepts, tinged with concrete
> > thinking)
> > Seventeen SSD: In the USSR, school leaving. CNF: "Pre-Life"
> >
> > You could write the Crises on your palm and the Stable Periods along each
> > finger. (Hard to read it, though....)
> >
> > --
> > David Kellogg
> > Macquarie University
> >
> > "The Great Globe and All Who It Inherit:
> > Narrative and Dialogue in Story-telling with
> > Vygotsky, Halliday, and Shakespeare"
> >
> > Free Chapters Downloadable at:
> >
> > https://www.sensepublishers.com/media/2096-the-great-
> globe-and-all-who-it-inherit.pdf
> >
> > Recent Article: Thinking of feeling: Hasan, Vygotsky, and Some
> Ruminations
> > on the Development of Narrative in Korean Children
> >
> > Free E-print Downloadable at:
> >
> > http://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/8Vaq4HpJMi55DzsAyFCf/full
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 9:10 AM, Maria Judith Sucupira Costa Lins <
> > mariasucupiralins@terra.com.br> wrote:
> >
> > Martin
> > Thank you for the chapter. Maria
> >
> > -----Mensagem original-----
> > De: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@
> > mailman.ucsd.edu]
> > Em nome de Martin John Packer
> > Enviada em: quarta-feira, 17 de maio de 2017 20:05
> > Para: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> > Assunto: [Xmca-l] Re: Child Development: Understanding a Cultural
> > Perpsective
> >
> > Thanks Alfredo. It was fun to write, and it would not have been possible
> > except for what I have learned over the years from some very smart
> people,
> > a
> > number of whom hang out on this very discussion group.
> >
> > Martin
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On May 17, 2017, at 5:48 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil
> > <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no<mailto:a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for shamelessly sharing your work, Martin. The chapter looks
> great.
> > I
> > like the way it draws connections throughout diverse theories,
> emphasising
> > common ground across dual systems theory, dynamic field theory, and
> > cultural
> > psychology.
> >
> > Alfredo
> > ________________________________________
> > From:
> > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu<mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> > <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu<mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> >>
> > on
> > behalf of Martin John Packer
> > <mpacker@uniandes.edu.co<mailto:mpacker@uniandes.edu.co>>
> > Sent: 18 May 2017 00:10
> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > Subject: [Xmca-l]  Child Development: Understanding a Cultural
> Perpsective
> >
> > A few months ago I shamelessly promoted my new textbook, Child
> Development:
> > Understanding a Cultural Perspective, published by Sage at only $46 for
> the
> > paperback edition, $33 or less for the various electronic editions.
> >
> > There is now a sample chapter available online: Chapter 5, one of the two
> > chapters on infancy:
> >
> > <https://us.sagepub.com/en-us/nam/child-development/
> book253543%20#preview>
> >
> >
> > Martin
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>