[Xmca-l] Re: studies of feedback on student writing?

Mon Jul 31 19:25:30 PDT 2017

Very thankful for all of your thoughtful comments and questions. I'm
especially ruminating on the idea of non grading virtues (reminded me of
non-market values) and second the desire to learn more from Andrew about
how you introduce and frame this idea to students.

Greg in response to your earlier email I realize now that I have built in
some early encouragements for engaging with written feedback (such as
having students submit rough and revised drafts of essays, with time
between to engage with the feedback on the rough drafts as
mediation/support for ways to revise). I have noticed that most students do
seem to engage with the written commentary over time, though it often comes
as a surprise.

In addition to direct feedback on the writing, a lot of my comments are
aimed at a dialogue about the ideas (a practice I really learned in the
undergraduate course tied to Kris Gutierrez' 5th Dimension site at UCLA).
In working with TA's I always find myself saying that its in feedback on
student writing that I really learn and re-learn the theory. I feel like if
I'm thinking hard about how to challenge them to go deeper we are in a good
place. This meaning-making exchange is part of what I'm interested in
looking at more closely, as well as feedback as a trust and even
dignity-generative activity (Manuel Espinoza) that can open the space for
students to think on paper.

Greg, perhaps it is helpful that my courses are often focused on learning
theory, so the theoretical concepts can be applied to how we organize the
classroom itself (including feedback on writing) in meta-cognitive ways
that invite students to examine their own assumptions and expectations
about teaching and learning. But it's undoubtedly rife with tension within
institutional structures. I'm currently organizing a summer bridge program
and navigating the imperative to offer an alternative experience of reading
and writing (the university as it could be [Boal]) knowing what they are
likely to encounter in the university as it is.

Shirin

On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 7:00 PM, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com> wrote:

> One dialogic-pluralogic way of making sure that writing gets read and
> commented on is to upload to an e-class. That's what my wife does. But
> Korean students tend to appraise each other's work uncritically, while
> Korean teachers tend to comment only on the "verbalization".
>
> So she's trying to shift comments to "Theme". "Theme" really has two
> meanings: it's a grammatical category we hardly ever think about in English
> (although it's decisively marked in Korean, with the particle "eun/neun").
> It means the "intension" of a sentence: the point of the sentence that is
> most speaker oriented, most deictic, most
> "I-am-here-and-this-is-what-I-am-on-about" and consequently the least
> defining. When you start a sentence, in English, "With respect to...", or
> "Regarding...." or "In terms of ...", you are trying to put something that
> is not the Subject in the Theme position (which is what makes the Theme
> marked).
>
> Of course, paragraphs have Themes too. We usually call them "topic
> sentences", but that disguises their real function, which is speaker
> oriented, deictic, and NOT defining (because the defining bit comes at the
> end). Even a good long nominal group has a Theme, like "that fat old
> humpback whale" ("that" is deictic, "fat, old" are more descriptive,
> "humpback"is classifying, and "whale" is definitive). But the main thing is
> that a book has a Theme: the title. Vygotsky writes about how titles
> "absorb sense" in the reading, so that the Theme becomes Rheme by the time
> you turn the last page.
>
> One of the skills my wife has to teach is how to read a title for Theme. A
> couple of years ago, she was trying to do this with the work of Oscar
> Wilde. One of the students responded quite strongly to the tragic work, but
> not to the comic work, and she wondered why, since Wilde is mostly known
> for his comic work. He dropped the class after midterms, and went back to
> his home country; when his classmates were sitting their finals, he killed
> himself.
>
> That was two years ago, and his classmates are graduating this year. My
> wife is still trying to work out how to respond to writing "by theme", and
> she even wrote an article about it, just published in MCA:
>
> http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2017.1351990
>
>
> I don't know if this really counts as a CHAT method of responding to
> writing; I think of it as more social-semiotic. In this case, it didn't
> work. But maybe for students who don't kill themselves, it gets better.
>
>
> David Kellogg
> Macquarie University
>
> PS: Greg--why is "how do you make money with an anthro degree?" a stupid
> question for someone who is not yet an anthro professor? Actually, I was
> asking myself something rather similar about my linguistics degree just
> this morning.....
>
> d
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 4:23 AM, Greg Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Michael, I'd be interested in hearing more about Alison Koenka's work
> > (perhaps she could share a summary or some writing).
> > Andrew, I'd be curious to hear how you "sell" this to various parties
> > involved (esp. at the departmental and higher levels of admin, but also
> to
> > the students).
> > -greg
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 11:08 AM, Glassman, Michael <glassman.13@osu.edu
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > So here is an interesting story about the concept of feedback (not
> > > apocryphal from what I have been able to figure out, but probably also
> > > limited in scope). The concept of feedback was discussed a great deal
> at
> > > the Macy's conferences on cybernetics. In particular second order
> > > cybernetics with Bateson and Mead and Lewin (and a host of others).
> The
> > > concept of continuous feedback loops that led to evolution of thought
> and
> > > action became a really important topic.  If you read the works of these
> > > thinkers it is really apparent. It is the central topic of Bateson's
> Mind
> > > and Nature I think (I wonder why his metaphor of bumps in the road
> > creating
> > > feedback loops never gained more traction). Anyway as the story goes
> the
> > > members of this particular conference were really interested in pushing
> > > feedback forward as a concept.  Lewin, who is one of my favorites
> > > characters from academic history, it sounded like he was a total trip
> to
> > be
> > > around, was so excited with the concept he immediately went out and
> > started
> > > telling people about it. Only the way he explained it it sounded more
> > like
> > > something you give somebody (a product) than a process, a continuous
> loop
> > > in which all involved are constantly changing and readjusting.
> > >
> > > So Lewin comes back to the next meeting of the conference and they tell
> > > him, "No, no you're explaining it wrong. People are thinking that
> > feedback
> > > is something one organism gives another organism.  Lewin realizes his
> > > mistake and tells everybody not to worry, he's going to fix
> everything. A
> > > few days later he drops dead of a heart attack. And we have bee
> > struggling
> > > with the concept of feedback ever since.
> > >
> > > Andrew I admire your note giving grades. It is something I have stopped
> > > doing a while ago.  But there is definitely push back from students,
> who
> > > have been taught to expect this, and from faculty no matter what they
> > say.
> > >
> > > For those who are interested Alison Koenka who is a post doc in my
> > > department has done some really interesting work on this.  She
> basically
> > > found that giving grades is detrimental to motivation (this is crossing
> > > theoretical boundaries I know) on a whole host of issues. Basically it
> > > seems nothing good comes from giving grades. If you give the type of
> > > process oriented feedback it really improves motivation.  I know she
> had
> > > presented this a bunch of places, not sure if she has it published yet.
> > > But really interesting.
> > >
> > > But we are going to continue feedback as product, in the form of
> > > grades....because. sight.
> > >
> > > Michael
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@
> > > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Coppens, Andrew
> > > Sent: Monday, July 31, 2017 11:50 AM
> > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: studies of feedback on student writing?
> > >
> > > Hi Shirin, Greg, others,
> > >
> > > Thanks, this is a topic very near to my own interests as well. I’m not
> > > aware of much research on “writing as dialogue” that encourages
> expansive
> > > learning, unfortunately. Related, there is a good deal of supporting
> > > evidence against the capitalization of academic work (e.g., Alexander
> > > Sidorkin’s excellent work) and grades as extrinsic rewards (e.g., Alfie
> > > Kohn’s dogged fight). Maja Wilson’s book Rethinking Rubrics has also
> been
> > > helpful. Both instructors and students collude in the capitalization of
> > > academic work, though we tend to blame each other.
> > >
> > > I don’t use grades in my classes, which are writing intensive (a
> practice
> > > I learned from Barbara Rogoff and UC Santa Cruz, which for many years
> did
> > > not use letter grades opting for narrative performance evaluations;
> there
> > > are other institutions still doing so). The pushback I get from
> students
> > on
> > > this puts sweat on my pre-tenure brow each semester, but I strongly
> feel
> > > that it is worth it. For nearly all of my students, this is the only
> time
> > > in their 15+ year schooling career that they’ve participated in a
> > > non-letter-grade assessment system, and most are studying to become
> > > teachers. Many students eventually come to agree with a narrative,
> > > ideas-focused approach, but some don’t. Many of those that don’t are
> with
> > > me when we’re working closely together on their ideas in a paper, but
> are
> > > unwilling to “experiment” with their GPA in a broader sense. And, I
> > > understand that concern.
> > >
> > > Greg — It has also been my experience that when grades and written
> > > feedback exist side-by-side, written feedback gets reduced to or
> > > interpreted as explaining the grade. The way in which the form of
> > > assessment drives what’s possible is very powerful here. It conveys —
> > > again, to both students and instructors — a strong sense of what the
> > > “conversation" is supposed to be about, as well as what our
> relationship
> > is
> > > to each other.
> > >
> > > For me, one of the most promising transformations in expansive
> approaches
> > > to writing as a collaboration/conversation, supported by certain kinds
> of
> > > written comments and less so by others I would imagine, is that it has
> a
> > > meaningful purpose other than its evaluation. I’ve often overlooked the
> > > proximal, more intimate purpose of writing for communication, looking
> > for a
> > > way to make student writing “count” in a conventional sense (e.g.,
> > getting
> > > it published in one or another venue — I’ve been using Wikipedia for
> this
> > > for a few years). But, I think there’s a great deal of meaning to be
> > > accessed in evolving a relationship and conversation, in writing, that
> is
> > > basically about developing and sharing an idea.
> > >
> > > I continue to try new things. Very interested to hear what others are
> > > thinking/doing. Happy also to share how I “sell” this to both students
> > and
> > > my Department.
> > >
> > > / Andrew
> > >
> > > ---
> > > Andrew D. Coppens
> > > Education Dept., University of New Hampshire
> > > 302 Morrill Hall, 603-862-3736
> > > www.researchgate.net/profile/Andrew_Coppens<http://www.
> > > researchgate.net/profile/Andrew_Coppens>
> > > @andrewcoppens
> > >
> > > On Jul 31, 2017, at 11:08 AM, Greg Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
> <
> > > mailto:greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > >
> > > Shirin,
> > > I find your suggestions for writing feedback as dialogue (and as
> "writing
> > > itself") to be a really fantastic idea.
> > > My question is: How to accomplish your task in a world in which
> education
> > > and indeed knowledge have been thoroughly capital-ized?
> > > How to fit this into the educational system of today in which not only
> do
> > > universities treat students as so many widgets to put out, but students
> > see
> > > often see themselves (or, at least, their "skills" and "knowledge") in
> > > precisely this same way?
> > > My anthropology students regularly tell me of the interrogations that
> > they
> > > endure with friends and family who ask them "But how can you make money
> > > with an anthropology degree?" I'm unsure whether to tell my students
> that
> > > there are a million ways to make money with an anthropology degree or
> > > whether I should tell them to respond with "That's a stupid question"
> and
> > > to go on to interrogate the grounds of the question. The former is more
> > > practical, the latter is more revealing.
> > > Shirin, I'm wondering if you are encountering this sort of thing? And
> if
> > > so, how might you "sell" such an alternative pedagogy to a capital-ized
> > > university and its students?
> > > Just for a little more context, I regularly have conversations with a
> > > colleague in my department who was, for the past two years, tasked with
> > > leading our students in the final write-up stage of their theses. He
> > found
> > > that they were often uninterested in feedback-as-dialogue. Rather, the
> > vast
> > > majority were interested in feedback as a way of telling them how to
> get
> > > the grade that they wanted. He was incredibly thoughtful and thorough
> in
> > > his comments and feedback but the students tended to ignore this
> feedback
> > > unless it had teeth (i.e. was directly connected with grades).
> > > I am in a culturally peculiar context, but I'm not sure exactly how
> > > peculiar. Shirin, do you encounter this same kind of thing at
> > Northwestern?
> > > (or other places you have taught?).
> > > Perhaps you have some writing on this somewhere?
> > > -greg
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 8:32 AM, Shirin Vossoughi <
> > > shirinvossoughi@gmail.com<mailto:shirinvossoughi@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > Thank you for these David, very interesting. I sympathize with many of
> > > your comments and am drawn to the moments when the more complex and
> > > dialectical understandings of the ZPD become a meaningful tool for
> > > mediation and practice.
> > >
> > > Your thoughts on the term "feedback" also got me thinking about the
> > > ideological baggage that term may carry so thank you for that. What I'm
> > > after these days is a way to understand the specific qualities of
> > > educators' written commentary on student writing that support shifts
> > > towards more expansive relationships with writing, ideas, self and
> world.
> > > feedback as dialogue, in a sense. but also as writing in itself.
> > >
> > > Shirin
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 5:44 PM, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com
> > > <mailto:dkellogg60@gmail.com>>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear Shirin:
> > >
> > > I'm currently writing a rather tiresome article on the distortions of
> > > Vygotsky's ideas we find in Lantolf, Thorne, and  "sociocultural
> theory"
> > > generally. I won't bore you with the details: the gist is that the
> "zone
> > > of proximal development" was never designed to be tautological:
> Vygotsky
> > > did not think that the "next zone" was defined by being able to do
> tasks,
> > > and being able to do tasks was how you knew that the child was ready
> for
> > > the next zone of development (i.e. "the child is ready to learn
> whatever
> > > the child is ready to learn"). It was based on a serious study of child
> > > development and an attempt to establish age periods that were immanent
> to
> > > the process of development itself (i.e. defined by the pace of
> > > development--crises and stable periods--but relatable to the fruits of
> > > development--as observable in language and verbal thinking).
> > >
> > > But inevitably part of what I have to do is to take out the garbage
> that
> > > has accrued around Vygotsky's name, to show how sociocultural theory
> > > popularized Vygotsky by reducing all his ideas into extant "best
> > > practices". At the time (the early nineties in second language writing
> > > instruction) best practices were starting to move away from whole
> > language
> > > ideas based on providing the young writer with a "print rich
> environment"
> > > and plentiful "input" towards more social-behaviorist notions of "focus
> > on
> > > form" and "corrective feedback". The theoretical rationale was that the
> > > former approach had been "cognitivist" whle the latter was
> > "sociocultural",
> > > because it involved interaction between minds which was then
> > "internalized"
> > > within the learner's mind.
> > >
> > > Here are some key articles from Lantolfian "sociocultural theory" which
> > do
> > > this:
> > >
> > > Aljaafreh, A. & Lantolf, J.P. (1994). Negative feedback as regulation
> and
> > > second language learning in the zone of proximal development. Modern
> > > Language Journal, 78, 465-483.
> > >
> > > De Guerrero, M.C.M. & Villamil, O.S. (2000). Activating the ZPD: Mutual
> > > scaffolding in L2 peer revision. Modern Language Journal, 84, 51-68.
> > >
> > > Poehner, M.E. (2012). The zone of proximal development and the genesis
> of
> > > self-assessment. Modern Language Journal, 96 (4) 610-622.
> > >
> > > Poehner, M.E. & Lantolf, J.P. (2010). Vygotsky’s teaching-assessment
> > > dialectic and L2 education: The case for Dynamic Assessment. Mind,
> > Culture,
> > > and Activity, 17 (4) 312-330.
> > >
> > > Poehner, M.E. and Lantolf, J.P. (2013). Bringing the ZPD into the
> > > equation:
> > > Capturing L2 development during Computerized Dynamic Assessment (C-DA).
> > > Language Teaching Research, 17 (3) 323-342.
> > >
> > > Needless to say, I don't recommend any of these. Don't get me wrong: I
> > too
> > > am an agitator  and not a propagandist; I want a few simple ideas I can
> > > give to lots of teachers rather than a whole complex system that can
> only
> > > be mastered by a few. Like you, I firmly I believe that it is possible
> to
> > > popularize without vulgarizing, and I even think the demotic forms of
> > > theory are the most democratic and ultimately the most profound.
> > >
> > > I too have a strong sympathy for the teacher training approach that
> > > analyzes best practices and tries to abstract best principles, and then
> > > shows how these are perfectly compatible with high theory. I even think
> > > that at some point it is useful to try to show teachers that they were
> > > "unconscious" Vygotskyans all the long.
> > >
> > > But this stuff isn't that. It's just bait and switch: The zone of
> > proximal
> > > development was not and never will be a form of corrective feedback,
> and
> > > the very word "feedback" suggests the behaviorist theory that it really
> > > belongs to.
> > >
> > > David Kellogg
> > > Macquarie University
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 3:46 AM, Shirley Franklin <
> > > s.franklin08@btinternet.com<mailto:s.franklin08@btinternet.com>>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > I know people in this project have done research on feedback on
> academic
> > > writing.
> > > Also, we  discussed people's work on this in the Academic Literacies
> > Forum
> > > in the Institute of Education in London.  Brian Street, who sadly died
> > > recently, had a lot to say about it.
> > >
> > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.
> > > thinkingwriting.qmul.ac.uk_&d=DwIFaQ&c=c6MrceVCY5m5A_KAUkrdoA&r=
> > > T292xnKwVOMtoHKpeIK_s9mDPzJBSXg6AqnqQfLlAoc&m=
> > > Q7JWnLWOxMzH0kIzXYwfdMZBM51LHFXIf1cAZ6I2-fE&s=
> > ZUJX4MQ64FQpHTkDTctQKvgNmO7_
> > > anSsnUffmaXYejY&e=
> > >
> > > Shirley
> > > Sent from my iPad
> > >
> > > On 27 Jul 2017, at 19:00, Shirin Vossoughi <shirinvossoughi@gmail.com<
> > > mailto:shirinvossoughi@gmail.com>>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear all,
> > > I am writing to ask if anyone might have suggestions for CHAT or
> > > socio-cultural studies of written feedback on student writing?
> > > Thank you,
> > > Shirin
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> > > Assistant Professor
> > > Department of Anthropology
> > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> > > Brigham Young University
> > > Provo, UT 84602
> > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__byu.
> > > academia.edu_GregoryThompson&d=DwIFaQ&c=c6MrceVCY5m5A_KAUkrdoA&r=
> > > T292xnKwVOMtoHKpeIK_s9mDPzJBSXg6AqnqQfLlAoc&m=
> > > Q7JWnLWOxMzH0kIzXYwfdMZBM51LHFXIf1cAZ6I2-fE&s=
> > > 2I7yxfBLCBIrsPahSJUgYrJsL7n5a6jlg4l7na88wL0&e=
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> > Assistant Professor
> > Department of Anthropology
> > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> > Brigham Young University
> > Provo, UT 84602
> > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
> >
>
>
>
> --
>