[Xmca-l] Re: Hegel on Action
Andy Blunden
ablunden@mira.net
Sat Jul 15 22:57:48 PDT 2017
Metaphors help us grasp ideas viscerally, mobilising our
practical intelligence to grasp ideas remote from our
experience. But understanding basic philosophical concepts
is a different problem. It is more one of freeing ourselves
from sense-consciousness, stripping away our desire to see
and touch an idea.
Glad we're all on the same page.
Andy
------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Blunden
http://home.mira.net/~andy
http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
On 16/07/2017 3:52 PM, Greg Thompson wrote:
> Yes, thanks Larry for pointing to the resonances with
> where I was trying to go and Andy's paper, and for
> catching that my query about gravity was in the interests
> of considering gravity as a parallel to activity.
> Seemed a useful metaphor (along with the idea of matter at
> the subatomic level). But, of course, I recognize that
> metaphors are of limited use (helpful for initial grasping
> but always lacking in that they fail to fully and
> precisely represent what they are metaphorizing). It is
> much more precise to simply describe these things in words.
> -greg
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 15, 2017 at 11:19 PM, Lplarry
> <lpscholar2@gmail.com <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Greg, Andy,
> As I am listening to your discourse from the margins
> I hear Andy saying (take activity) as the mono basic
> fundamental approach.
> I will respond to how I understand this discourse:
>
> Consciousness, matter, gravity, are concepts and as
> concepts are derivative from more basic activity
> which is primary.
> Activity as the basic (substance) , concepts as
> derivative.
>
> As substance, activity is NOT COMPOSED of other things.
> Andy gives the example of the concept (chair) that is
> not a material object but is an activity. The (entire
> activity) is REPRESENTED in the concept of the chair.
> Whatever artifact is considered, it is not the
> material object that is represented by the conceptual
> artifact, but the (entire activity) is represented in
> the conceptual artifact.
> Mediating artifacts used by philosophers in their
> social practice are words.
> Just as we are inclined to IDENTIFY the concepts of
> ordinary artifacts with the material object ITSELF
> (rather than the entire activity mediated by the
> artifact) we likewise are inclined to talk about the
> concept mediated by the word (such as the word
> ‘being’) AS IF the word were ITSELF the concept
> (therefore loosing awareness of the entire activity
> IDENTIFIED in the concept (being) as used by philosophers.
>
> So, in Hegel’s time the concept (Spirit) expressed
> this entire activity, but today the entire activity is
> better understood as (activity). Both the concept
> Spirit in Hegel’s time and the concept Activity today,
> indicate the same phenomena (the entirety of activity).
> Activity (the entirety of activity) is the one
> SUBSTANCE that cannot be decomposed into other things.
>
> Matter, consciousness, gravity, can be understood as
> activity (the one substance) so these words represent
> concepts and concepts are NOT the words, concepts are
> the activity (the entirety of activity) and activity
> is more basic than consciousness or material.
>
> Andy, not sure if I am taking (activity) as you
> intended, but is my response to listening to the
> discourse between you and Greg as I listen from the
> margins.
> A tentative probe
>
> Sent from my Windows 10 phone
>
> From: Andy Blunden
> Sent: July 15, 2017 6:03 PM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hegel on Action
>
> Communication is hard, isn't it? You have interpreted
> what I
> have said in the exact 100% opposite of my meaning, Greg.
>
> The European Rationalists and Empiricists of the
> Enlightenment broke with the monism of the Catholic Church
> and proposed that matter existed outside of and
> independently of human consciousness but the nature of
> matter could be known by the respective programs of
> rationalism and empiricism. This is the view which guided
> the development of philosophy and science in the West and
> remains common sense to this day.
>
> *Hegel proposed a viable alternative to this ontology*
>
> But he did not do that by providing "new" definitions of
> matter and consciousness. He proposed a new monist
> starting
> point and reconstructed an entire world view beginning
> from
> that single concept which, in the spirit of his own times,
> he called "Spirit". I call it "Activity" and the article
> shows that this interpretation is true to Hegel's
> intention.
>
> So please, rather than imagining how matter and
> consciousness could somehow get mixed up with one another
> and we can discover psychokinesis and tell the future with
> dreams, be open to taking Activity as the substance of a
> world view.
>
> Andy
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Andy Blunden
> http://home.mira.net/~andy <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>
>
> On 16/07/2017 4:45 AM, Greg Thompson wrote:
> > Andy,
> >
> > I must confess to being entirely confused by your
> > suggestion that "matter is everything outside of
> > consciousness". It sounds like you are starting the
> > conversation by saying "there is matter on the one hand
> > and there is consciousness on the other hand and
> never the
> > twain shall meet." Perhaps that is an essential starting
> > point for understanding activity, but I would at least
> > like to imagine it could be otherwise.
> >
> > In my work I am trying to
> > do this work of imagining
> > how it could be otherwise. I'm trying to think of this
> > another way
> > , t
> > o get a grip on things in some way that does not
> split the
> > world in two
> > right at the get-go
> > .
> >
> > I assume that for you this is an ontological
> commitment.
> > You start by assuming (asserting? realizing?) that there
> > are two types of things in the world - matter and
> > consciousness. I'd rather not start there. Because this
> > involves a disagreement in our starting assumptions, I
> > don't suspect we'll get very far with that conversation
> > (and we've dabbled in that conversation before and
> indeed
> > we haven't gotten anywhere).
> >
> > So I thought I would ask a slightly different question:
> > what is the nature of gravity? Is it more like matter or
> > more like consciousness (in that one could imagine
> gravity
> > being something "outside" of matter in the sense
> that you
> > are saying "consciousness" is outside of matter)? I know
> > you are committed to non-dualism in some sense and I'm
> > just trying to figure out how you reconcile all of this.
> >
> > In solidarity,
> > -greg
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Jul 15, 2017 at 12:11 AM, Andy Blunden
> > <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>
> wrote:
> >
> > No, it would be spreading confusion, Greg.
> >
> > "Matter" in this context is everything outside of my
> > consciousness. "Activity" in this context is human,
> > social practice. Moving attention to the sub-atomic
> > level, a field where we have no common sense,
> sensuous
> > knowledge, does not help.
> >
> > Andy
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > Andy Blunden
> > http://home.mira.net/~andy
> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
> >
> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>
> >
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>>
> >
> > On 15/07/2017 2:31 PM, Greg Thompson wrote:
> >
> > Andy,
> > Just musing here but I'm wondering if
> "matter" is
> > anything more than activity, particularly when
> > considered at the sub-atomic level.
> > At that level, matter seems a lot more like the
> > holding of relations in some activity (not so
> > different from the Notion?).
> > Or would that be taking things too far?
> > -greg
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 10:12 PM, Andy Blunden
> > <ablunden@mira.net
> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
> > <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
> > <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>> wrote:
> >
> > Anyone who got interested in that
> material about
> > "Hegel on Action", here is my contribution.
> >
> > https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action
> <https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action>
> >
> <https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action
> <https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action>>
> >
> >
> <https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action
> <https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action>
> >
> <https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action
> <https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action>>>
> >
> > Andy
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > Andy Blunden
> > http://home.mira.net/~andy
> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
> > <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
> > <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
> >
> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>
> >
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>>
> >
> >
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>
> >
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>>>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> > Assistant Professor
> > Department of Anthropology
> > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> > Brigham Young University
> > Provo, UT 84602
> > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
> <http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson>
> > <http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
> <http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson>>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> > Assistant Professor
> > Department of Anthropology
> > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> > Brigham Young University
> > Provo, UT 84602
> > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
> <http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson>
> > <http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
> <http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson>>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> Assistant Professor
> Department of Anthropology
> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> Brigham Young University
> Provo, UT 84602
> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
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