[Xmca-l] Re: Hegel on Action
Andy Blunden
ablunden@mira.net
Sat Jul 15 07:56:19 PDT 2017
My article only goes to issues like "resides both within and
outside the mind" in presenting the problem, the dead end,
which Hegel found a way out of. The concepts of mind and
body are of course which legitimate concepts, and Hegel
himself refers to them in this way in one of the quotes in
my article. But *they are not fundamental concepts* for me
or for Hegel. Further, "within and outside the mind" implies
"two substances", i.e., Cartesian dualism, which you have to
extract yourself from to make sense of Hegel or my article.
"My understanding of 'the material' is both interpretative
and observable." I don't quite get that, though don't
trouble about that. Ontological claims, such as those in the
first few paragraphs of my article have to be taken *just as
they are*. They are nothing to do with theories of physics
or theories of psychology.
Yes, every writer gives you specific insights which are
available from their point of view. And that is not limited
to philosophy - art, drama, literature, ... all give us
insights of their own. But sciences are such that concepts
form a system; in each scientific theory all the concepts
(if the theory is well constructed) fit together, and *will
be incompatible with* the concepts (and terminology) of
other theories. To you, all these theories are aspects of
semiotics. But neither Saussure not Vygotsky were
semioticians, so there is a danger in absorbing their ideas
into what, *for them*, is an incompatible frame. You
probably speak 6 languages, James, but if you jumble up the
words of 6 languages in one sentence it is going to be junk.
But you can still enjoy the cognitive and cultural benefits
of the world views captured in 6 languages.
Andy
------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Blunden
http://home.mira.net/~andy
http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
On 16/07/2017 12:26 AM, James Ma wrote:
> Andy, apologies for my digression from your point. The
> sign resides both within and outside the mind - this is my
> understanding from reading Peirce. Somehow the effect of
> your article (I'm still reading it) on me is that it makes
> me think more and more into Peirce...
>
> My understanding of "the material" is both interpretative
> and observable.
>
> Although I read Peirce and Vygotsky, the
> Saussurean/Hallidayan imagery is always present in my mind
> (due to a linguistics background). Anyway, I feel these
> thinkers sit together quite comfortably - all their ideas
> are complementary - and can be distilled into one word:
> semiotics.
>
> James
>
> /_____________________________________/
>
> */James Ma/*///https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa/
>
>
>
> On 15 July 2017 at 13:28, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>
> James, I think you're using "material" in some
> specific sense which is unknown to me. It seems to me
> to be something to do with body language as opposed to
> speech, maybe practical consciousness rather than
> discursive consciousness. "Material" understood as
> meaning "made of matter" would simply be the opposite
> of "in my imagination". I find it difficult to get my
> head around the idea of a "sign in the mind" and if
> "mind" was some place other than the material world
> where a sign could be located. I'm sure what you are
> talking about is perfectly good, but I can't relate it
> to the absolutely basic ontological issue which you
> raised out of my paper about action.
>
> Andy
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Andy Blunden
> http://home.mira.net/~andy <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>
>
> On 15/07/2017 8:15 PM, James Ma wrote:
>
> Thanks for such helpful explanation, Andy.
> Regarding my last question, I mean one's feeling
> or sense perception involved in social practice in
> a social context possesses the material quality of
> a psychic image (a sign in the mind). This
> material quality can be one's facial expression or
> bodily movement connected with a particular feeling.
>
> James
>
> /_____________________________________/
>
> */James
> Ma/*///https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa/
> <https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa/>
>
>
>
> On 15 July 2017 at 09:42, Andy Blunden
> <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>> wrote:
>
> James, the meaning for words such as
> "material" and to
> a lesser extent the other words in your
> message have
> meanings which are extremely context (or
> discourse)
> dependent. The Stanford Encyclopaedia of
> Philosophy
> doesn't have a definition of Matter,
> considering it
> only in relation to Form, but their definition of
> Substance will do the trick. I follow Lenin and
> Vygotsky in my understanding of matter. (Hegel
> didn't
> like to use the word, because he took it as
> too linked
> to Atomism. Marx used "material" in a very
> specific
> way to do with reproduction of the means of life.)
>
> As to the philosophical meaning of "matter" I
> think I
> said it in the paper as succinctly as possible. If
> it's in the mind then it is not material. I
> can't make
> sense of your last question.
>
> Andy
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Andy Blunden
> http://home.mira.net/~andy
> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>
>
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>>
>
> On 15/07/2017 6:28 PM, James Ma wrote:
>
> This is interesting to me, Andy. Do you
> rule out
> anything that has material quality but is
> actually
> associated with a mental sign (a sign in
> the mind,
> as Peirce would say)? Do you consider social
> practice (you mentioned earlier) to be
> tinted with
> the intrapsychological within oneself?
>
> James
>
> /_____________________________________/
>
> */James
>
> Ma/*///https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa/
> <https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa/>
> <https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa/
> <https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa/>>
>
>
>
> On 15 July 2017 at 07:11, Andy Blunden
> <ablunden@mira.net
> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>> wrote:
>
> No, it would be spreading confusion, Greg.
>
> "Matter" in this context is everything
> outside
> of my
> consciousness. "Activity" in this
> context is
> human,
> social practice. Moving attention to the
> sub-atomic
> level, a field where we have no common
> sense,
> sensuous
> knowledge, does not help.
>
> Andy
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Andy Blunden
> http://home.mira.net/~andy
> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>
>
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>>
>
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>
>
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>>>
>
> On 15/07/2017 2:31 PM, Greg Thompson
> wrote:
>
> Andy,
> Just musing here but I'm wondering if
> "matter" is
> anything more than activity,
> particularly when
> considered at the sub-atomic level.
> At that level, matter seems a lot more
> like the
> holding of relations in some
> activity (not so
> different from the Notion?).
> Or would that be taking things too
> far?
> -greg
>
> On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 10:12 PM,
> Andy Blunden
> <ablunden@mira.net
> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>
> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>>> wrote:
>
> Anyone who got interested in that
> material about
> "Hegel on Action", here is my
> contribution.
>
> https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action
> <https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action>
>
> <https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action
> <https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action>>
>
> <https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action
> <https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action>
>
> <https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action
> <https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action>>>
>
> <https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action
> <https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action>
>
> <https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action
> <https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action>>
>
> <https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action
> <https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action>
>
> <https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action
> <https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action>>>>
>
> Andy
>
>
> --
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Andy Blunden
> http://home.mira.net/~andy
> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>
>
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>>
>
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>
>
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>>>
>
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>
>
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>>
>
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>
>
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>>>>
>
>
>
>
>
> -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> Assistant Professor
> Department of Anthropology
> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> Brigham Young University
> Provo, UT 84602
> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
> <http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson>
> <http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
> <http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson>>
>
> <http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
> <http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson>
> <http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
> <http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson>>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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