[Xmca-l] Re: Inner thought in theater pieces

[Daniel Hyman]

All these questions sound valid to me. They also intertwine with at least a
couple of other factors:

- Favorite songs/musical works are recognized with somewhat the same inner
glow as the face of a dear friend or close relative. Unfamiliar works or
styles can seem strange or alien.

- Works I've played or sung, like distinctive aromas or tastes, call up
memories of events where I have heard or performed them, the friends
involved, the moods we shared, the scenes and places.

The question of the identity of a classical piece can seem trivial ("why
that's Beethoven's Op. 59 No. 2 quartet in E minor, can't you tell"?) but
actually runs a good deal deeper as Larry implies. Musicians go to great
lengths to unearth original (Urtext) editions and contemporaneous
performance practices, only to find at times that composers willingly
altered, trimmed, and extended works to suit.

On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 8:32 PM, Lplarry <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:

> Another slant on this theme of song and image.
> Is it possible for the singer to sing (summer time blues)  - without the
> accompanying image? . Then, shifting mode,  (from sound to image) the
> listener   being moved (by the sound of the  singing) does experience a
> FELT image - personally being moved  within this emerging image generated
> through sound.
>
> If this is perhaps possible, then the notion of (degrees) of  felt
> experience as variable modes  occurs as feasible.
>
>  Felt experience moving (us) sometimes personally, sometimes within small
> groups, and sometimes within larger arenas.
>
> Asking us  consider how central is the song itself that moves us, in
> contrast to  how central is the individual person who is creating this song?
>
> Then to consider the difference when a soloist sings summer time blues, in
> contrast to a chorus singing this song, in contrast to link-syncing this
> song in a pretense performance, in contrast to hearing the song through the
> medium of the radio. Is there identity in these changes or ?
> Is each shifting  experience generating a differing felt mood /presence or
> is there some  overlapping experience that we can say shares a particular
> ‘identity’?
>
>
>
> Sent from my Windows 10 phone
>
> From: Edward Wall
> Sent: July 13, 2017 1:29 PM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Inner thought in theater pieces
>
> Mike
>
>      That, as you, is my experience. The interesting question raised is
> that if I, for example, sang the lyrics to Summer Time Blues (I know this
> dates me), while doing the relevant imaging could I feel those blues.
> Oddly, it seems, the answer is almost yes. Definitely slippery.
>
> Ed
>
> > On Jul 13, 2017, at  2:04 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
> >
> > Ed-
> > I think I am saying that you cannot imagine coming home after a long day
> of
> > work or
> > winning the lottery without simultaneously imagining how you feel about
> it.
> > I probably misunderstood you.
> >
> > Slippery stuff, imagining.
> >
> > mike
> >
> > On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 11:57 AM, Edward Wall <ewall@umich.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> Mike
> >>
> >>     What you say is interesting, but it is not my experience and not
> that
> >> of any I have talked so far (other than yourself). I can, for example,
> >> imagine winning the lottery. I can imagine even imagine that I felt a
> >> feeling that most would feel on that occurrence; however I do not feel
> >> those feelings if I imagine winning the lottery (I just tried it, by the
> >> way). I can imagine that I came home tired tomorrow evening, I can
> imagine
> >> that I was tired, but I do not feel tired when I do that imagining (even
> >> though I was tired last night so I know what those feeling were like).
> It
> >> may quite well be a lack in me and others.
> >>      Anyway, how does it feel when you imagine coming home tired or do I
> >> misunderstand. Are you saying you imagine coming home tired and find
> >> yourself feeling something - say irritation - or are you saying, in your
> >> body and mind, you feel what you normally identify as tiredness?
> >>
> >> Ed
> >>
> >>> On Jul 12, 2017, at  10:19 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi Ed-- How could you NOT feel something that was imagined? Imagine you
> >> won
> >>> the lottery? Imagine you come home tired tomorrow evening? Imagine what
> >> you
> >>> like, but imagine it without a feeling about it? sounds like a
> pathology
> >> (!)
> >>>
> >>> I have discovered that  a movie of Finian's rainbow is pretty widely
> >>> accessible. you tube, amazon, elsewhere. If you read the entry in
> >>> wikipedia, or the info I discovered at the Harburg Foundation, you will
> >> be
> >>> able to discern the affinity between Harburg and xmca.  For example:
> >>>
> >>> Feisty Irishman Finian McLonergan (Fred Astaire) and his faithful
> >> daughter,
> >>> Sharon (Petula Clark), bearing a pot of gold stolen from the leprechaun
> >> Og
> >>> (Tommy Steele), settle in the village of Rainbow Valley, Missitucky.
> >> Siding
> >>> with local sharecroppers like Woody Mahoney (Don Francks) against a
> >> blustering,
> >>> bigoted local politician (Keenan Wynn), the McLonergans get into a
> number
> >>> of fanciful scrapes while being pursued by the magical Og, who will
> >> become
> >>> mortal if he doesn't recover his gold.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Now I am off to watch the movie!  :-)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> mike
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 7:01 PM, Edward Wall <ewall@umich.edu> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Late to this conversation; however, I been thinking about whether one
> >> can
> >>>> feel something that is imagined and, if so, what would it be like
> >> (there is
> >>>> some debate about this). It would seem that Harberg, to some extent,
> >> says
> >>>> “yes" with “Songs make you feel a thought.” Quite interesting.
> >>>>
> >>>> Ed Wall
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Jul 12, 2017, at  7:34 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Whoa! Small world. I learn something new about the wonderful Yip
> >> Harberg
> >>>>> and that the Fennyhough is on kindle in adjacent message on xmca! The
> >>>> book
> >>>>> appears to converge on a lot of long term xmca concerns. (And to
> listen
> >>>> to
> >>>>> Finian's rueful refrain again would be a joy)
> >>>>> :-)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Having the book simultaneously available and less than 100$ is a
> great
> >>>>> resource.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks Peter and Daniel.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> mike
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 4:57 PM, Daniel Hyman <
> >>>> daniel.a.hyman.0@gmail.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Thank you for these compelling and heartfelt thoughts, Peter. I'm
> >>>> scoping
> >>>>>> up the book on Kindle and may have further reflections or questions
> >> for
> >>>> you
> >>>>>> over the next few weeks. There was an NPR Radiolab episode a few
> years
> >>>> ago
> >>>>>> about people with damaged limbic systems who couldn't make
> decisions -
> >>>>>> perhaps pertinent to the concept of unity of thought and feeling,
> >> which
> >>>> I
> >>>>>> would also like to take a closer look at.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Kind regards and many thanks,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Daniel
> >>>>>> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 3:48 PM Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] <
> >>>>>> pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hi, Daniel.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Fernyhough's book doesn't delve into the intricacies of a
> musician's
> >>>>>> *inner
> >>>>>>> ear*,
> >>>>>>> but he does cover internal speech without sound, internal sound
> >> without
> >>>>>>> words,
> >>>>>>> the internal *felt presence* of a person who doesn't speak, and
> >>>> internal
> >>>>>>> voices
> >>>>>>> that are disembodied. From these and other examples he suggests
> that
> >>>>>>> hearing
> >>>>>>> voices is a much richer phenomenon than just auditory perception:
> it
> >> is
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> surface
> >>>>>>> level of an inner experience that embraces the imagining of a
> >> *person*,
> >>>>>> who
> >>>>>>> has
> >>>>>>> an individual point of view and a characteristic voice. Only pieces
> >> of
> >>>>>> this
> >>>>>>> inner
> >>>>>>> person may come to be experienced consciously.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Regarding the deaf, Fernyhough explores inner signing and inner
> >>>> voices--
> >>>>>>> yes,
> >>>>>>> deaf people who hear voices internally but who have never had the
> >>>>>>> experience
> >>>>>>> of hearing the voices of others! Many of the internal musical
> >>>> experiences
> >>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>> you mention have auditory parallels in the case studies he
> presents.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> As a former musician myself (in my youth), I have always wondered
> >> about
> >>>>>>> those
> >>>>>>> musicians who claim to have perfect pitch. I don't possess that
> >>>> ability,
> >>>>>>> but I have
> >>>>>>> absolutely no need for a tuning device when I tune my guitar
> strings:
> >>>> my
> >>>>>>> inner
> >>>>>>> (and outer) ear is all I need.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Since you raised the issue of the pairings of words and music, I'd
> >> like
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>>> take this
> >>>>>>> opportunity to share a favorite quote from Yip Harberg, classmate
> of
> >>>> Ira
> >>>>>>> Gershwin
> >>>>>>> and composer of the words and music for The Wizard of Oz, Finnian's
> >>>>>>> Rainbow,
> >>>>>>> and the Depression-era song Brother, Can You Spare a Dime?  Harberg
> >>>> gave
> >>>>>> a
> >>>>>>> lot
> >>>>>>> of thought to the relation between music and words, noting that:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Music makes you feel a feeling;
> >>>>>>> Words make you think a thought;
> >>>>>>> Songs make you feel a thought.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The quote above came to mind as I was eavesdropping on an earlier
> >>>>>>> conversation
> >>>>>>> on this listserv (a month ago!) concerning Vygotsky's notion of the
> >>>> unity
> >>>>>>> of thinking
> >>>>>>> and emotions in the formation of the human personality.
> Personally, I
> >>>>>> have
> >>>>>>> trouble
> >>>>>>> conjuring up an image of *emotions*, but I have no difficulty
> >>>>>> experiencing
> >>>>>>> emotions
> >>>>>>> when they take a musical form. I am much more comfortable thinking
> >>>> about
> >>>>>>> feelings
> >>>>>>> than I am about feeling thoughts. Intellectualizing emotions is a
> >>>>>> cultural
> >>>>>>> experience
> >>>>>>> that many men excel at, I suspect.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> My two cents.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Peter
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 12:33 PM, Daniel Hyman <
> >>>>>> daniel.a.hyman.0@gmail.com
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Many thanks to both Ulvi and Peter for the points about internal
> >>>>>> speech,
> >>>>>>>> its role in drama, and Fernyhough's work from last year. As I'm a
> >>>>>>> musician,
> >>>>>>>> they bring to mind (hopefully) related questions (apparently
> glanced
> >>>> at
> >>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>> The Voices Within) which I'd be grateful to know more about, in
> the
> >>>>>>>> contexts of psychology or neurobiology:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> - Musicians use the term "inner ear" (though "inner voice" might
> be
> >>>>>> more
> >>>>>>>> specific) to denote the faculty of being able to subjectively
> "hear"
> >>>>>>>> melody, song, chant/rap (rhythmic words without melody), (groups
> of)
> >>>>>>>> instruments and the like, untethered to physical sound. The most
> >>>>>> extreme
> >>>>>>>> cases concern composers such as Beethoven, Smetana, and Fauré who
> >> lost
> >>>>>>>> their hearing in adulthood. But anyone who can read a score,
> >> practice
> >>>>>>>> toward matching a concrete tonal image, recall a concert, audiate
> >> what
> >>>>>>> they
> >>>>>>>> are about to play or sing, or receive new musical ideas, does
> this.
> >>>>>> Need
> >>>>>>>> one only be a trained musician, or are there other paths to this
> >>>>>> ability?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> - Some "inner ear" experiences are paired with words, others with
> >>>>>> events
> >>>>>>>> (e.g., birdcalls, thunderstorms, night sounds of nature, the
> >> quickened
> >>>>>>>> pulse of desire, galloping horses' hooves), some with waves of
> >>>> feelings
> >>>>>>>> that might fit words (or not), some are simply music. How are
> these
> >>>>>>> alike,
> >>>>>>>> and different?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> - Some pairings of words and music are socially organized (Mozart
> >> and
> >>>>>> da
> >>>>>>>> Ponte, Rodgers and Hammerstein, George and Ira Gershwin), others
> >>>>>> internal
> >>>>>>>> to one person (Wagner, Mahler). How are these alike and different?
> >> How
> >>>>>>> does
> >>>>>>>> parody (the type where new words are fitted to an old tune) relate
> >> to
> >>>> a
> >>>>>>>> live composer setting words from a past poet?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> - Tinnitus (ringing in the ears after hearing loss) is now
> suggested
> >>>> to
> >>>>>>> be
> >>>>>>>> the effect of the brain filling in tones it "thinks" are happening
> >> but
> >>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>> heard. Is this purely physical, or can experience, training,
> >>>>>> reflection,
> >>>>>>> or
> >>>>>>>> other factors alter it?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I guess the common thread is, what do psychology and neurobiology
> >>>> offer
> >>>>>>> (or
> >>>>>>>> promise) to help us understand these types of musical experience,
> >>>>>>> ability,
> >>>>>>>> and disability? Thanks in advance to anyone moved to chime in, or
> >>>>>>> recommend
> >>>>>>>> readings.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Daniel
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 10:50 AM, Ulvi İçil <ulvi.icil@gmail.com>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Thank you Peter.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Ulvi
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> 12 Tem 2017 17:38 tarihinde "Peter Feigenbaum [Staff]" <
> >>>>>>>>> pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> yazdı:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Ulvi,
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Your questions about the science of inner speech monologue and
> its
> >>>>>>> use
> >>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>>> the analysis of theatrical material - to convey the internal
> >>>>>> richness
> >>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>> ​the ​
> >>>>>>>>>> emotion
> >>>>>>>>>> ​
> >>>>>>>>>> and thought
> >>>>>>>>>> ​​
> >>>>>>>>>> ​of
> >>>>>>>>>> characters
> >>>>>>>>>> ​ - are tangentially addressed by Charles Fernyhough
> >>>>>>>>>> in his recent book The Voices Within. Charles is a colleague who
> >>>>>>> works
> >>>>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>>>>> Vygotsky's
> >>>>>>>>>> theory of private and inner speech development, but who
> >> specializes
> >>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>>> the dialogicality of inner speech and its role in people who
> hear
> >>>>>>>> voices
> >>>>>>>>> -
> >>>>>>>>>> both normal
> >>>>>>>>>> and hallucinatory. While he doesn't directly address the issue
> of
> >>>>>>>>>> theatrical characters,
> >>>>>>>>>> he does provide insights - based on evidence and research - into
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>> creative
> >>>>>>>>>> writing process of novelists, and the various roles that inner
> >>>>>> voices
> >>>>>>>>> play
> >>>>>>>>>> in their
> >>>>>>>>>> work and thought.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I highly recommend this book because of the admirable way in
> which
> >>>>>>>>>> Fernyhough
> >>>>>>>>>> manages to navigate highly complicated issues concerning a
> >>>>>> phenomenon
> >>>>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>>>> is largely elusive - even though it constitutes the highest
> stage
> >>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>> development
> >>>>>>>>>> of verbal thinking. As a less courageous researcher, I chose to
> >>>>>> study
> >>>>>>>>>> private speech
> >>>>>>>>>> because the data are empirical and tangible, subject to
> linguistic
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>> sociolinguistic
> >>>>>>>>>> analysis.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.
> >>>>>>>> amazon.com_Voices-2DWithin-2DHistory-2DScience-2D&d=DwIFaQ&c=
> >>>>>>>> aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r=
> >>>>>>>> mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=
> >>>>>>>> iXFaj8Q4I5K2fbAjp7wwg7xDtlZs8s_s7DI7l664u24&s=
> >>>>>>>> DEs5D5eLtGRTqr_XA8tkmjg4GFaAp_30zW3KKzPHIqg&e=
> >>>>>>>>>> Ourselves/dp/0465096808
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Peter
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 2:36 PM, Ulvi İçil <ulvi.icil@gmail.com
> >
> >>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Nazim Hikmet uses widely inner  thought and momologue in a work
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>> convey
> >>>>>>>>>>> the internal richness of emotion and thought of his characters.
> >>>>>>>>>> Especially
> >>>>>>>>>>> inner thought.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> The name of the work is Ferhad and Sirin, and another name is
> >>>>>>> Legend
> >>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>>> love.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Anyone can see the very interesting content of the work,
> >>>>>> characters
> >>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>>> struggle in a triangle of love.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> It is a quite successful work, played by Bolshoi.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> My questions are:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Does the science of psychology make wide use of such theater
> >>>>>> work?
> >>>>>>>> i.e.
> >>>>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>>>> terms of the inner thought.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Does the science of pscyhology make use of such theater work in
> >>>>>>> terms
> >>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>>> human development? i.e. in terms of the "defects" human beings
> >>>>>>>> possess.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Ulvi
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
> >>>>>>>>>> Director,
> >>>>>>>>>> Office of Institutional Research
> >>>>>>>>>> <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
> >>>>>>>>>> Fordham University
> >>>>>>>>>> Thebaud Hall-202
> >>>>>>>>>> Bronx, NY 10458
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Phone: (718) 817-2243
> >>>>>>>>>> Fax: (718) 817-3817
> >>>>>>>>>> email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
> >>>>>>> Director,
> >>>>>>> Office of Institutional Research
> >>>>>>> <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
> >>>>>>> Fordham University
> >>>>>>> Thebaud Hall-202
> >>>>>>> Bronx, NY 10458
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Phone: (718) 817-2243
> >>>>>>> Fax: (718) 817-3817
> >>>>>>> email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>
>
>