[Xmca-l] Re: Inner thought in theater pieces

[mike cole]

Good morning, Peter

The immediate winner was Kris Gutierrez!
Kris does not drink Irish whiskey, so the prize will be held over until the
next appropriate occasion.  :-)

The director? Francis Ford Coppola.
!!

Mike

On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 6:19 AM Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] <
pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote:

> Darn!  Because of my failing recall memory, I'm not gonna be the proud
> owner of a free bottle of Irish whiskey!
>
> But I can tell you all a little more about Yip Harberg's work: For one
> thing, underlying Finnian's Rainbow - like most of Harberg's creations - is
> a serious progressive political message, in this case one about immigration
> to America (and also racism in America). The quote from Harberg that I
> provided in my earlier email was one that I tripped over on the way to
> recovering this, more humorous,one: *My whole family has had trouble with
> immigrants ever since we first came to this country.*
>
> The Wizard of Oz was a political story about the loss of small farms in
> America (represented by the Scarecrow), the rise of manufacturing
> (represented by the Tin Man), and the timidity of the US government
> (represented by the Cowardly Lion) in regulating the growing banking
> industry which was pulling all the strings (represented by the Wizard
> behind the curtain). Harberg makes particular mention of the difficulty he
> had with the song Somewhere Over the Rainbow: For weeks he couldn't figure
> out a way to get an emotional lift out of the opening line - until he
> introduced an octave shift in the first word (Some - where). The meaning of
> the word was there, but it needed an emotional infusion from the music to
> make it do its job of *feeling a thought*.
>
> One final quote: *Music gives wings to words.*
>
> Glad to know there are Yip Harberg fans out there!
>
> Peter
>
> On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 12:47 AM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>
> > A free bottle of Irish Whiskey to the first person who can
> identify,without
> > googling, the director of the film of Finian's Rainbow.
> >
> > mike
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 8:47 PM, Lplarry <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Imagine that ;-  )
> > >
> > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone
> > >
> > > From: mike cole
> > > Sent: July 12, 2017 8:22 PM
> > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Inner thought in theater pieces
> > >
> > > Hi Ed-- How could you NOT feel something that was imagined? Imagine you
> > won
> > > the lottery? Imagine you come home tired tomorrow evening? Imagine what
> > you
> > > like, but imagine it without a feeling about it? sounds like a
> pathology
> > > (!)
> > >
> > > I have discovered that  a movie of Finian's rainbow is pretty widely
> > > accessible. you tube, amazon, elsewhere. If you read the entry in
> > > wikipedia, or the info I discovered at the Harburg Foundation, you will
> > be
> > > able to discern the affinity between Harburg and xmca.  For example:
> > >
> > > Feisty Irishman Finian McLonergan (Fred Astaire) and his faithful
> > daughter,
> > > Sharon (Petula Clark), bearing a pot of gold stolen from the leprechaun
> > Og
> > > (Tommy Steele), settle in the village of Rainbow Valley, Missitucky.
> > Siding
> > > with local sharecroppers like Woody Mahoney (Don Francks) against a
> > > blustering,
> > > bigoted local politician (Keenan Wynn), the McLonergans get into a
> number
> > > of fanciful scrapes while being pursued by the magical Og, who will
> > become
> > > mortal if he doesn't recover his gold.
> > >
> > >
> > > Now I am off to watch the movie!  :-)
> > >
> > >
> > > mike
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 7:01 PM, Edward Wall <ewall@umich.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Late to this conversation; however, I been thinking about whether one
> > can
> > > > feel something that is imagined and, if so, what would it be like
> > (there
> > > is
> > > > some debate about this). It would seem that Harberg, to some extent,
> > says
> > > > “yes" with “Songs make you feel a thought.” Quite interesting.
> > > >
> > > > Ed Wall
> > > >
> > > > > On Jul 12, 2017, at  7:34 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Whoa! Small world. I learn something new about the wonderful Yip
> > > Harberg
> > > > > and that the Fennyhough is on kindle in adjacent message on xmca!
> The
> > > > book
> > > > > appears to converge on a lot of long term xmca concerns. (And to
> > listen
> > > > to
> > > > > Finian's rueful refrain again would be a joy)
> > > > > :-)
> > > > >
> > > > > Having the book simultaneously available and less than 100$ is a
> > great
> > > > > resource.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks Peter and Daniel.
> > > > >
> > > > > mike
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 4:57 PM, Daniel Hyman <
> > > > daniel.a.hyman.0@gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Thank you for these compelling and heartfelt thoughts, Peter. I'm
> > > > scoping
> > > > >> up the book on Kindle and may have further reflections or
> questions
> > > for
> > > > you
> > > > >> over the next few weeks. There was an NPR Radiolab episode a few
> > years
> > > > ago
> > > > >> about people with damaged limbic systems who couldn't make
> > decisions -
> > > > >> perhaps pertinent to the concept of unity of thought and feeling,
> > > which
> > > > I
> > > > >> would also like to take a closer look at.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Kind regards and many thanks,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Daniel
> > > > >> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 3:48 PM Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] <
> > > > >> pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> Hi, Daniel.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Fernyhough's book doesn't delve into the intricacies of a
> > musician's
> > > > >> *inner
> > > > >>> ear*,
> > > > >>> but he does cover internal speech without sound, internal sound
> > > without
> > > > >>> words,
> > > > >>> the internal *felt presence* of a person who doesn't speak, and
> > > > internal
> > > > >>> voices
> > > > >>> that are disembodied. From these and other examples he suggests
> > that
> > > > >>> hearing
> > > > >>> voices is a much richer phenomenon than just auditory perception:
> > it
> > > is
> > > > >> the
> > > > >>> surface
> > > > >>> level of an inner experience that embraces the imagining of a
> > > *person*,
> > > > >> who
> > > > >>> has
> > > > >>> an individual point of view and a characteristic voice. Only
> pieces
> > > of
> > > > >> this
> > > > >>> inner
> > > > >>> person may come to be experienced consciously.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Regarding the deaf, Fernyhough explores inner signing and inner
> > > > voices--
> > > > >>> yes,
> > > > >>> deaf people who hear voices internally but who have never had the
> > > > >>> experience
> > > > >>> of hearing the voices of others! Many of the internal musical
> > > > experiences
> > > > >>> that
> > > > >>> you mention have auditory parallels in the case studies he
> > presents.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> As a former musician myself (in my youth), I have always wondered
> > > about
> > > > >>> those
> > > > >>> musicians who claim to have perfect pitch. I don't possess that
> > > > ability,
> > > > >>> but I have
> > > > >>> absolutely no need for a tuning device when I tune my guitar
> > strings:
> > > > my
> > > > >>> inner
> > > > >>> (and outer) ear is all I need.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Since you raised the issue of the pairings of words and music,
> I'd
> > > like
> > > > >> to
> > > > >>> take this
> > > > >>> opportunity to share a favorite quote from Yip Harberg, classmate
> > of
> > > > Ira
> > > > >>> Gershwin
> > > > >>> and composer of the words and music for The Wizard of Oz,
> Finnian's
> > > > >>> Rainbow,
> > > > >>> and the Depression-era song Brother, Can You Spare a Dime?
> Harberg
> > > > gave
> > > > >> a
> > > > >>> lot
> > > > >>> of thought to the relation between music and words, noting that:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Music makes you feel a feeling;
> > > > >>> Words make you think a thought;
> > > > >>> Songs make you feel a thought.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> The quote above came to mind as I was eavesdropping on an earlier
> > > > >>> conversation
> > > > >>> on this listserv (a month ago!) concerning Vygotsky's notion of
> the
> > > > unity
> > > > >>> of thinking
> > > > >>> and emotions in the formation of the human personality.
> > Personally, I
> > > > >> have
> > > > >>> trouble
> > > > >>> conjuring up an image of *emotions*, but I have no difficulty
> > > > >> experiencing
> > > > >>> emotions
> > > > >>> when they take a musical form. I am much more comfortable
> thinking
> > > > about
> > > > >>> feelings
> > > > >>> than I am about feeling thoughts. Intellectualizing emotions is a
> > > > >> cultural
> > > > >>> experience
> > > > >>> that many men excel at, I suspect.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> My two cents.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Peter
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 12:33 PM, Daniel Hyman <
> > > > >> daniel.a.hyman.0@gmail.com
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>> wrote:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> Many thanks to both Ulvi and Peter for the points about internal
> > > > >> speech,
> > > > >>>> its role in drama, and Fernyhough's work from last year. As I'm
> a
> > > > >>> musician,
> > > > >>>> they bring to mind (hopefully) related questions (apparently
> > glanced
> > > > at
> > > > >>> in
> > > > >>>> The Voices Within) which I'd be grateful to know more about, in
> > the
> > > > >>>> contexts of psychology or neurobiology:
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> - Musicians use the term "inner ear" (though "inner voice" might
> > be
> > > > >> more
> > > > >>>> specific) to denote the faculty of being able to subjectively
> > "hear"
> > > > >>>> melody, song, chant/rap (rhythmic words without melody), (groups
> > of)
> > > > >>>> instruments and the like, untethered to physical sound. The most
> > > > >> extreme
> > > > >>>> cases concern composers such as Beethoven, Smetana, and Fauré
> who
> > > lost
> > > > >>>> their hearing in adulthood. But anyone who can read a score,
> > > practice
> > > > >>>> toward matching a concrete tonal image, recall a concert,
> audiate
> > > what
> > > > >>> they
> > > > >>>> are about to play or sing, or receive new musical ideas, does
> > this.
> > > > >> Need
> > > > >>>> one only be a trained musician, or are there other paths to this
> > > > >> ability?
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> - Some "inner ear" experiences are paired with words, others
> with
> > > > >> events
> > > > >>>> (e.g., birdcalls, thunderstorms, night sounds of nature, the
> > > quickened
> > > > >>>> pulse of desire, galloping horses' hooves), some with waves of
> > > > feelings
> > > > >>>> that might fit words (or not), some are simply music. How are
> > these
> > > > >>> alike,
> > > > >>>> and different?
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> - Some pairings of words and music are socially organized
> (Mozart
> > > and
> > > > >> da
> > > > >>>> Ponte, Rodgers and Hammerstein, George and Ira Gershwin), others
> > > > >> internal
> > > > >>>> to one person (Wagner, Mahler). How are these alike and
> different?
> > > How
> > > > >>> does
> > > > >>>> parody (the type where new words are fitted to an old tune)
> relate
> > > to
> > > > a
> > > > >>>> live composer setting words from a past poet?
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> - Tinnitus (ringing in the ears after hearing loss) is now
> > suggested
> > > > to
> > > > >>> be
> > > > >>>> the effect of the brain filling in tones it "thinks" are
> happening
> > > but
> > > > >>> not
> > > > >>>> heard. Is this purely physical, or can experience, training,
> > > > >> reflection,
> > > > >>> or
> > > > >>>> other factors alter it?
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> I guess the common thread is, what do psychology and
> neurobiology
> > > > offer
> > > > >>> (or
> > > > >>>> promise) to help us understand these types of musical
> experience,
> > > > >>> ability,
> > > > >>>> and disability? Thanks in advance to anyone moved to chime in,
> or
> > > > >>> recommend
> > > > >>>> readings.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Daniel
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 10:50 AM, Ulvi İçil <
> ulvi.icil@gmail.com>
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>> Thank you Peter.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Ulvi
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> 12 Tem 2017 17:38 tarihinde "Peter Feigenbaum [Staff]" <
> > > > >>>>> pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> yazdı:
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Ulvi,
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Your questions about the science of inner speech monologue and
> > its
> > > > >>> use
> > > > >>>> in
> > > > >>>>>> the analysis of theatrical material - to convey the internal
> > > > >> richness
> > > > >>>> of
> > > > >>>>>> ​the ​
> > > > >>>>>> emotion
> > > > >>>>>> ​
> > > > >>>>>> and thought
> > > > >>>>>> ​​
> > > > >>>>>> ​of
> > > > >>>>>> characters
> > > > >>>>>> ​ - are tangentially addressed by Charles Fernyhough
> > > > >>>>>> in his recent book The Voices Within. Charles is a colleague
> who
> > > > >>> works
> > > > >>>>> with
> > > > >>>>>> Vygotsky's
> > > > >>>>>> theory of private and inner speech development, but who
> > > specializes
> > > > >>> in
> > > > >>>>>> the dialogicality of inner speech and its role in people who
> > hear
> > > > >>>> voices
> > > > >>>>> -
> > > > >>>>>> both normal
> > > > >>>>>> and hallucinatory. While he doesn't directly address the issue
> > of
> > > > >>>>>> theatrical characters,
> > > > >>>>>> he does provide insights - based on evidence and research -
> into
> > > > >> the
> > > > >>>>>> creative
> > > > >>>>>> writing process of novelists, and the various roles that inner
> > > > >> voices
> > > > >>>>> play
> > > > >>>>>> in their
> > > > >>>>>> work and thought.
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> I highly recommend this book because of the admirable way in
> > which
> > > > >>>>>> Fernyhough
> > > > >>>>>> manages to navigate highly complicated issues concerning a
> > > > >> phenomenon
> > > > >>>>> that
> > > > >>>>>> is largely elusive - even though it constitutes the highest
> > stage
> > > > >> in
> > > > >>>> the
> > > > >>>>>> development
> > > > >>>>>> of verbal thinking. As a less courageous researcher, I chose
> to
> > > > >> study
> > > > >>>>>> private speech
> > > > >>>>>> because the data are empirical and tangible, subject to
> > linguistic
> > > > >>> and
> > > > >>>>>> sociolinguistic
> > > > >>>>>> analysis.
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.
> > > > >>>> amazon.com_Voices-2DWithin-2DHistory-2DScience-2D&d=DwIFaQ&c=
> > > > >>>> aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r=
> > > > >>>> mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=
> > > > >>>> iXFaj8Q4I5K2fbAjp7wwg7xDtlZs8s_s7DI7l664u24&s=
> > > > >>>> DEs5D5eLtGRTqr_XA8tkmjg4GFaAp_30zW3KKzPHIqg&e=
> > > > >>>>>> Ourselves/dp/0465096808
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Peter
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 2:36 PM, Ulvi İçil <
> ulvi.icil@gmail.com
> > >
> > > > >>>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> Nazim Hikmet uses widely inner  thought and momologue in a
> work
> > > > >> to
> > > > >>>>> convey
> > > > >>>>>>> the internal richness of emotion and thought of his
> characters.
> > > > >>>>>> Especially
> > > > >>>>>>> inner thought.
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> The name of the work is Ferhad and Sirin, and another name is
> > > > >>> Legend
> > > > >>>> of
> > > > >>>>>>> love.
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> Anyone can see the very interesting content of the work,
> > > > >> characters
> > > > >>>> in
> > > > >>>>> a
> > > > >>>>>>> struggle in a triangle of love.
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> It is a quite successful work, played by Bolshoi.
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> My questions are:
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> Does the science of psychology make wide use of such theater
> > > > >> work?
> > > > >>>> i.e.
> > > > >>>>>> in
> > > > >>>>>>> terms of the inner thought.
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> Does the science of pscyhology make use of such theater work
> in
> > > > >>> terms
> > > > >>>>> of
> > > > >>>>>>> human development? i.e. in terms of the "defects" human
> beings
> > > > >>>> possess.
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> Ulvi
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> --
> > > > >>>>>> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
> > > > >>>>>> Director,
> > > > >>>>>> Office of Institutional Research
> > > > >>>>>> <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
> > > > >>>>>> Fordham University
> > > > >>>>>> Thebaud Hall-202
> > > > >>>>>> Bronx, NY 10458
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Phone: (718) 817-2243
> > > > >>>>>> Fax: (718) 817-3817
> > > > >>>>>> email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> --
> > > > >>> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
> > > > >>> Director,
> > > > >>> Office of Institutional Research
> > > > >>> <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
> > > > >>> Fordham University
> > > > >>> Thebaud Hall-202
> > > > >>> Bronx, NY 10458
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Phone: (718) 817-2243
> > > > >>> Fax: (718) 817-3817
> > > > >>> email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
> Director,
> Office of Institutional Research
> <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
> Fordham University
> Thebaud Hall-202
> Bronx, NY 10458
>
> Phone: (718) 817-2243
> Fax: (718) 817-3817
> email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
>