[Xmca-l] Re: Inner thought in theater pieces

Wed Jul 12 21:47:22 PDT 2017

A free bottle of Irish Whiskey to the first person who can identify,without
googling, the director of the film of Finian's Rainbow.

mike

On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 8:47 PM, Lplarry <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:

> Imagine that ;-  )
>
> Sent from my Windows 10 phone
>
> From: mike cole
> Sent: July 12, 2017 8:22 PM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Inner thought in theater pieces
>
> Hi Ed-- How could you NOT feel something that was imagined? Imagine you won
> the lottery? Imagine you come home tired tomorrow evening? Imagine what you
> like, but imagine it without a feeling about it? sounds like a pathology
> (!)
>
> I have discovered that  a movie of Finian's rainbow is pretty widely
> accessible. you tube, amazon, elsewhere. If you read the entry in
> wikipedia, or the info I discovered at the Harburg Foundation, you will be
> able to discern the affinity between Harburg and xmca.  For example:
>
> Feisty Irishman Finian McLonergan (Fred Astaire) and his faithful daughter,
> Sharon (Petula Clark), bearing a pot of gold stolen from the leprechaun Og
> (Tommy Steele), settle in the village of Rainbow Valley, Missitucky. Siding
> with local sharecroppers like Woody Mahoney (Don Francks) against a
> blustering,
> bigoted local politician (Keenan Wynn), the McLonergans get into a number
> of fanciful scrapes while being pursued by the magical Og, who will become
> mortal if he doesn't recover his gold.
>
>
> Now I am off to watch the movie!  :-)
>
>
> mike
>
> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 7:01 PM, Edward Wall <ewall@umich.edu> wrote:
>
> > Late to this conversation; however, I been thinking about whether one can
> > feel something that is imagined and, if so, what would it be like (there
> is
> > some debate about this). It would seem that Harberg, to some extent, says
> > “yes" with “Songs make you feel a thought.” Quite interesting.
> >
> > Ed Wall
> >
> > > On Jul 12, 2017, at  7:34 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > > Whoa! Small world. I learn something new about the wonderful Yip
> Harberg
> > > and that the Fennyhough is on kindle in adjacent message on xmca! The
> > book
> > > appears to converge on a lot of long term xmca concerns. (And to listen
> > to
> > > Finian's rueful refrain again would be a joy)
> > > :-)
> > >
> > > Having the book simultaneously available and less than 100$ is a great
> > > resource.
> > >
> > > Thanks Peter and Daniel.
> > >
> > > mike
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 4:57 PM, Daniel Hyman <
> > daniel.a.hyman.0@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Thank you for these compelling and heartfelt thoughts, Peter. I'm
> > scoping
> > >> up the book on Kindle and may have further reflections or questions
> for
> > you
> > >> over the next few weeks. There was an NPR Radiolab episode a few years
> > ago
> > >> about people with damaged limbic systems who couldn't make decisions -
> > >> perhaps pertinent to the concept of unity of thought and feeling,
> which
> > I
> > >> would also like to take a closer look at.
> > >>
> > >> Kind regards and many thanks,
> > >>
> > >> Daniel
> > >> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 3:48 PM Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] <
> > >> pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Hi, Daniel.
> > >>>
> > >>> Fernyhough's book doesn't delve into the intricacies of a musician's
> > >> *inner
> > >>> ear*,
> > >>> but he does cover internal speech without sound, internal sound
> without
> > >>> words,
> > >>> the internal *felt presence* of a person who doesn't speak, and
> > internal
> > >>> voices
> > >>> that are disembodied. From these and other examples he suggests that
> > >>> hearing
> > >>> voices is a much richer phenomenon than just auditory perception: it
> is
> > >> the
> > >>> surface
> > >>> level of an inner experience that embraces the imagining of a
> *person*,
> > >> who
> > >>> has
> > >>> an individual point of view and a characteristic voice. Only pieces
> of
> > >> this
> > >>> inner
> > >>> person may come to be experienced consciously.
> > >>>
> > >>> Regarding the deaf, Fernyhough explores inner signing and inner
> > voices--
> > >>> yes,
> > >>> deaf people who hear voices internally but who have never had the
> > >>> experience
> > >>> of hearing the voices of others! Many of the internal musical
> > experiences
> > >>> that
> > >>> you mention have auditory parallels in the case studies he presents.
> > >>>
> > >>> As a former musician myself (in my youth), I have always wondered
> about
> > >>> those
> > >>> musicians who claim to have perfect pitch. I don't possess that
> > ability,
> > >>> but I have
> > >>> absolutely no need for a tuning device when I tune my guitar strings:
> > my
> > >>> inner
> > >>> (and outer) ear is all I need.
> > >>>
> > >>> Since you raised the issue of the pairings of words and music, I'd
> like
> > >> to
> > >>> take this
> > >>> opportunity to share a favorite quote from Yip Harberg, classmate of
> > Ira
> > >>> Gershwin
> > >>> and composer of the words and music for The Wizard of Oz, Finnian's
> > >>> Rainbow,
> > >>> and the Depression-era song Brother, Can You Spare a Dime?  Harberg
> > gave
> > >> a
> > >>> lot
> > >>> of thought to the relation between music and words, noting that:
> > >>>
> > >>> Music makes you feel a feeling;
> > >>> Words make you think a thought;
> > >>> Songs make you feel a thought.
> > >>>
> > >>> The quote above came to mind as I was eavesdropping on an earlier
> > >>> conversation
> > >>> on this listserv (a month ago!) concerning Vygotsky's notion of the
> > unity
> > >>> of thinking
> > >>> and emotions in the formation of the human personality. Personally, I
> > >> have
> > >>> trouble
> > >>> conjuring up an image of *emotions*, but I have no difficulty
> > >> experiencing
> > >>> emotions
> > >>> when they take a musical form. I am much more comfortable thinking
> > about
> > >>> feelings
> > >>> than I am about feeling thoughts. Intellectualizing emotions is a
> > >> cultural
> > >>> experience
> > >>> that many men excel at, I suspect.
> > >>>
> > >>> My two cents.
> > >>>
> > >>> Peter
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 12:33 PM, Daniel Hyman <
> > >> daniel.a.hyman.0@gmail.com
> > >>>>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> Many thanks to both Ulvi and Peter for the points about internal
> > >> speech,
> > >>>> its role in drama, and Fernyhough's work from last year. As I'm a
> > >>> musician,
> > >>>> they bring to mind (hopefully) related questions (apparently glanced
> > at
> > >>> in
> > >>>> The Voices Within) which I'd be grateful to know more about, in the
> > >>>> contexts of psychology or neurobiology:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> - Musicians use the term "inner ear" (though "inner voice" might be
> > >> more
> > >>>> specific) to denote the faculty of being able to subjectively "hear"
> > >>>> melody, song, chant/rap (rhythmic words without melody), (groups of)
> > >>>> instruments and the like, untethered to physical sound. The most
> > >> extreme
> > >>>> cases concern composers such as Beethoven, Smetana, and Fauré who
> lost
> > >>>> their hearing in adulthood. But anyone who can read a score,
> practice
> > >>>> toward matching a concrete tonal image, recall a concert, audiate
> what
> > >>> they
> > >>>> are about to play or sing, or receive new musical ideas, does this.
> > >> Need
> > >>>> one only be a trained musician, or are there other paths to this
> > >> ability?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> - Some "inner ear" experiences are paired with words, others with
> > >> events
> > >>>> (e.g., birdcalls, thunderstorms, night sounds of nature, the
> quickened
> > >>>> pulse of desire, galloping horses' hooves), some with waves of
> > feelings
> > >>>> that might fit words (or not), some are simply music. How are these
> > >>> alike,
> > >>>> and different?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> - Some pairings of words and music are socially organized (Mozart
> and
> > >> da
> > >>>> Ponte, Rodgers and Hammerstein, George and Ira Gershwin), others
> > >> internal
> > >>>> to one person (Wagner, Mahler). How are these alike and different?
> How
> > >>> does
> > >>>> parody (the type where new words are fitted to an old tune) relate
> to
> > a
> > >>>> live composer setting words from a past poet?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> - Tinnitus (ringing in the ears after hearing loss) is now suggested
> > to
> > >>> be
> > >>>> the effect of the brain filling in tones it "thinks" are happening
> but
> > >>> not
> > >>>> heard. Is this purely physical, or can experience, training,
> > >> reflection,
> > >>> or
> > >>>> other factors alter it?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I guess the common thread is, what do psychology and neurobiology
> > offer
> > >>> (or
> > >>>> promise) to help us understand these types of musical experience,
> > >>> ability,
> > >>>> and disability? Thanks in advance to anyone moved to chime in, or
> > >>> recommend
> > >>>> readings.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Daniel
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 10:50 AM, Ulvi İçil <ulvi.icil@gmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> Thank you Peter.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Ulvi
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> 12 Tem 2017 17:38 tarihinde "Peter Feigenbaum [Staff]" <
> > >>>>> pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> yazdı:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> Ulvi,
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Your questions about the science of inner speech monologue and its
> > >>> use
> > >>>> in
> > >>>>>> the analysis of theatrical material - to convey the internal
> > >> richness
> > >>>> of
> > >>>>>> the 
> > >>>>>> emotion
> > >>>>>> 
> > >>>>>> and thought
> > >>>>>> 
> > >>>>>> of
> > >>>>>> characters
> > >>>>>>  - are tangentially addressed by Charles Fernyhough
> > >>>>>> in his recent book The Voices Within. Charles is a colleague who
> > >>> works
> > >>>>> with
> > >>>>>> Vygotsky's
> > >>>>>> theory of private and inner speech development, but who
> specializes
> > >>> in
> > >>>>>> the dialogicality of inner speech and its role in people who hear
> > >>>> voices
> > >>>>> -
> > >>>>>> both normal
> > >>>>>> and hallucinatory. While he doesn't directly address the issue of
> > >>>>>> theatrical characters,
> > >>>>>> he does provide insights - based on evidence and research - into
> > >> the
> > >>>>>> creative
> > >>>>>> writing process of novelists, and the various roles that inner
> > >> voices
> > >>>>> play
> > >>>>>> in their
> > >>>>>> work and thought.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> I highly recommend this book because of the admirable way in which
> > >>>>>> Fernyhough
> > >>>>>> manages to navigate highly complicated issues concerning a
> > >> phenomenon
> > >>>>> that
> > >>>>>> is largely elusive - even though it constitutes the highest stage
> > >> in
> > >>>> the
> > >>>>>> development
> > >>>>>> of verbal thinking. As a less courageous researcher, I chose to
> > >> study
> > >>>>>> private speech
> > >>>>>> because the data are empirical and tangible, subject to linguistic
> > >>> and
> > >>>>>> sociolinguistic
> > >>>>>> analysis.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.
> > >>>> amazon.com_Voices-2DWithin-2DHistory-2DScience-2D&d=DwIFaQ&c=
> > >>>> aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r=
> > >>>> mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=
> > >>>> iXFaj8Q4I5K2fbAjp7wwg7xDtlZs8s_s7DI7l664u24&s=
> > >>>> DEs5D5eLtGRTqr_XA8tkmjg4GFaAp_30zW3KKzPHIqg&e=
> > >>>>>> Ourselves/dp/0465096808
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Peter
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 2:36 PM, Ulvi İçil <ulvi.icil@gmail.com>
> > >>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Nazim Hikmet uses widely inner  thought and momologue in a work
> > >> to
> > >>>>> convey
> > >>>>>>> the internal richness of emotion and thought of his characters.
> > >>>>>> Especially
> > >>>>>>> inner thought.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> The name of the work is Ferhad and Sirin, and another name is
> > >>> Legend
> > >>>> of
> > >>>>>>> love.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Anyone can see the very interesting content of the work,
> > >> characters
> > >>>> in
> > >>>>> a
> > >>>>>>> struggle in a triangle of love.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> It is a quite successful work, played by Bolshoi.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> My questions are:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Does the science of psychology make wide use of such theater
> > >> work?
> > >>>> i.e.
> > >>>>>> in
> > >>>>>>> terms of the inner thought.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Does the science of pscyhology make use of such theater work in
> > >>> terms
> > >>>>> of
> > >>>>>>> human development? i.e. in terms of the "defects" human beings
> > >>>> possess.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Ulvi
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> --
> > >>>>>> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
> > >>>>>> Director,
> > >>>>>> Office of Institutional Research
> > >>>>>> <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
> > >>>>>> Fordham University
> > >>>>>> Thebaud Hall-202
> > >>>>>> Bronx, NY 10458
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Phone: (718) 817-2243
> > >>>>>> Fax: (718) 817-3817
> > >>>>>> email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
> > >>> Director,
> > >>> Office of Institutional Research
> > >>> <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
> > >>> Fordham University
> > >>> Thebaud Hall-202
> > >>> Bronx, NY 10458
> > >>>
> > >>> Phone: (718) 817-2243
> > >>> Fax: (718) 817-3817
> > >>> email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
> > >>>
> > >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>