[Xmca-l] Re: Inner thought in theater pieces

[mike cole]

Hi Ed-- How could you NOT feel something that was imagined? Imagine you won
the lottery? Imagine you come home tired tomorrow evening? Imagine what you
like, but imagine it without a feeling about it? sounds like a pathology (!)

I have discovered that  a movie of Finian's rainbow is pretty widely
accessible. you tube, amazon, elsewhere. If you read the entry in
wikipedia, or the info I discovered at the Harburg Foundation, you will be
able to discern the affinity between Harburg and xmca.  For example:

Feisty Irishman Finian McLonergan (Fred Astaire) and his faithful daughter,
Sharon (Petula Clark), bearing a pot of gold stolen from the leprechaun Og
(Tommy Steele), settle in the village of Rainbow Valley, Missitucky. Siding
with local sharecroppers like Woody Mahoney (Don Francks) against a blustering,
bigoted local politician (Keenan Wynn), the McLonergans get into a number
of fanciful scrapes while being pursued by the magical Og, who will become
mortal if he doesn't recover his gold.


Now I am off to watch the movie!  :-)


mike

On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 7:01 PM, Edward Wall <ewall@umich.edu> wrote:

> Late to this conversation; however, I been thinking about whether one can
> feel something that is imagined and, if so, what would it be like (there is
> some debate about this). It would seem that Harberg, to some extent, says
> “yes" with “Songs make you feel a thought.” Quite interesting.
>
> Ed Wall
>
> > On Jul 12, 2017, at  7:34 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
> >
> > Whoa! Small world. I learn something new about the wonderful Yip Harberg
> > and that the Fennyhough is on kindle in adjacent message on xmca! The
> book
> > appears to converge on a lot of long term xmca concerns. (And to listen
> to
> > Finian's rueful refrain again would be a joy)
> > :-)
> >
> > Having the book simultaneously available and less than 100$ is a great
> > resource.
> >
> > Thanks Peter and Daniel.
> >
> > mike
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 4:57 PM, Daniel Hyman <
> daniel.a.hyman.0@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Thank you for these compelling and heartfelt thoughts, Peter. I'm
> scoping
> >> up the book on Kindle and may have further reflections or questions for
> you
> >> over the next few weeks. There was an NPR Radiolab episode a few years
> ago
> >> about people with damaged limbic systems who couldn't make decisions -
> >> perhaps pertinent to the concept of unity of thought and feeling, which
> I
> >> would also like to take a closer look at.
> >>
> >> Kind regards and many thanks,
> >>
> >> Daniel
> >> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 3:48 PM Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] <
> >> pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi, Daniel.
> >>>
> >>> Fernyhough's book doesn't delve into the intricacies of a musician's
> >> *inner
> >>> ear*,
> >>> but he does cover internal speech without sound, internal sound without
> >>> words,
> >>> the internal *felt presence* of a person who doesn't speak, and
> internal
> >>> voices
> >>> that are disembodied. From these and other examples he suggests that
> >>> hearing
> >>> voices is a much richer phenomenon than just auditory perception: it is
> >> the
> >>> surface
> >>> level of an inner experience that embraces the imagining of a *person*,
> >> who
> >>> has
> >>> an individual point of view and a characteristic voice. Only pieces of
> >> this
> >>> inner
> >>> person may come to be experienced consciously.
> >>>
> >>> Regarding the deaf, Fernyhough explores inner signing and inner
> voices--
> >>> yes,
> >>> deaf people who hear voices internally but who have never had the
> >>> experience
> >>> of hearing the voices of others! Many of the internal musical
> experiences
> >>> that
> >>> you mention have auditory parallels in the case studies he presents.
> >>>
> >>> As a former musician myself (in my youth), I have always wondered about
> >>> those
> >>> musicians who claim to have perfect pitch. I don't possess that
> ability,
> >>> but I have
> >>> absolutely no need for a tuning device when I tune my guitar strings:
> my
> >>> inner
> >>> (and outer) ear is all I need.
> >>>
> >>> Since you raised the issue of the pairings of words and music, I'd like
> >> to
> >>> take this
> >>> opportunity to share a favorite quote from Yip Harberg, classmate of
> Ira
> >>> Gershwin
> >>> and composer of the words and music for The Wizard of Oz, Finnian's
> >>> Rainbow,
> >>> and the Depression-era song Brother, Can You Spare a Dime?  Harberg
> gave
> >> a
> >>> lot
> >>> of thought to the relation between music and words, noting that:
> >>>
> >>> Music makes you feel a feeling;
> >>> Words make you think a thought;
> >>> Songs make you feel a thought.
> >>>
> >>> The quote above came to mind as I was eavesdropping on an earlier
> >>> conversation
> >>> on this listserv (a month ago!) concerning Vygotsky's notion of the
> unity
> >>> of thinking
> >>> and emotions in the formation of the human personality. Personally, I
> >> have
> >>> trouble
> >>> conjuring up an image of *emotions*, but I have no difficulty
> >> experiencing
> >>> emotions
> >>> when they take a musical form. I am much more comfortable thinking
> about
> >>> feelings
> >>> than I am about feeling thoughts. Intellectualizing emotions is a
> >> cultural
> >>> experience
> >>> that many men excel at, I suspect.
> >>>
> >>> My two cents.
> >>>
> >>> Peter
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 12:33 PM, Daniel Hyman <
> >> daniel.a.hyman.0@gmail.com
> >>>>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Many thanks to both Ulvi and Peter for the points about internal
> >> speech,
> >>>> its role in drama, and Fernyhough's work from last year. As I'm a
> >>> musician,
> >>>> they bring to mind (hopefully) related questions (apparently glanced
> at
> >>> in
> >>>> The Voices Within) which I'd be grateful to know more about, in the
> >>>> contexts of psychology or neurobiology:
> >>>>
> >>>> - Musicians use the term "inner ear" (though "inner voice" might be
> >> more
> >>>> specific) to denote the faculty of being able to subjectively "hear"
> >>>> melody, song, chant/rap (rhythmic words without melody), (groups of)
> >>>> instruments and the like, untethered to physical sound. The most
> >> extreme
> >>>> cases concern composers such as Beethoven, Smetana, and Fauré who lost
> >>>> their hearing in adulthood. But anyone who can read a score, practice
> >>>> toward matching a concrete tonal image, recall a concert, audiate what
> >>> they
> >>>> are about to play or sing, or receive new musical ideas, does this.
> >> Need
> >>>> one only be a trained musician, or are there other paths to this
> >> ability?
> >>>>
> >>>> - Some "inner ear" experiences are paired with words, others with
> >> events
> >>>> (e.g., birdcalls, thunderstorms, night sounds of nature, the quickened
> >>>> pulse of desire, galloping horses' hooves), some with waves of
> feelings
> >>>> that might fit words (or not), some are simply music. How are these
> >>> alike,
> >>>> and different?
> >>>>
> >>>> - Some pairings of words and music are socially organized (Mozart and
> >> da
> >>>> Ponte, Rodgers and Hammerstein, George and Ira Gershwin), others
> >> internal
> >>>> to one person (Wagner, Mahler). How are these alike and different? How
> >>> does
> >>>> parody (the type where new words are fitted to an old tune) relate to
> a
> >>>> live composer setting words from a past poet?
> >>>>
> >>>> - Tinnitus (ringing in the ears after hearing loss) is now suggested
> to
> >>> be
> >>>> the effect of the brain filling in tones it "thinks" are happening but
> >>> not
> >>>> heard. Is this purely physical, or can experience, training,
> >> reflection,
> >>> or
> >>>> other factors alter it?
> >>>>
> >>>> I guess the common thread is, what do psychology and neurobiology
> offer
> >>> (or
> >>>> promise) to help us understand these types of musical experience,
> >>> ability,
> >>>> and disability? Thanks in advance to anyone moved to chime in, or
> >>> recommend
> >>>> readings.
> >>>>
> >>>> Daniel
> >>>>
> >>>> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 10:50 AM, Ulvi İçil <ulvi.icil@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Thank you Peter.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Ulvi
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 12 Tem 2017 17:38 tarihinde "Peter Feigenbaum [Staff]" <
> >>>>> pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> yazdı:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Ulvi,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Your questions about the science of inner speech monologue and its
> >>> use
> >>>> in
> >>>>>> the analysis of theatrical material - to convey the internal
> >> richness
> >>>> of
> >>>>>> ​the ​
> >>>>>> emotion
> >>>>>> ​
> >>>>>> and thought
> >>>>>> ​​
> >>>>>> ​of
> >>>>>> characters
> >>>>>> ​ - are tangentially addressed by Charles Fernyhough
> >>>>>> in his recent book The Voices Within. Charles is a colleague who
> >>> works
> >>>>> with
> >>>>>> Vygotsky's
> >>>>>> theory of private and inner speech development, but who specializes
> >>> in
> >>>>>> the dialogicality of inner speech and its role in people who hear
> >>>> voices
> >>>>> -
> >>>>>> both normal
> >>>>>> and hallucinatory. While he doesn't directly address the issue of
> >>>>>> theatrical characters,
> >>>>>> he does provide insights - based on evidence and research - into
> >> the
> >>>>>> creative
> >>>>>> writing process of novelists, and the various roles that inner
> >> voices
> >>>>> play
> >>>>>> in their
> >>>>>> work and thought.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I highly recommend this book because of the admirable way in which
> >>>>>> Fernyhough
> >>>>>> manages to navigate highly complicated issues concerning a
> >> phenomenon
> >>>>> that
> >>>>>> is largely elusive - even though it constitutes the highest stage
> >> in
> >>>> the
> >>>>>> development
> >>>>>> of verbal thinking. As a less courageous researcher, I chose to
> >> study
> >>>>>> private speech
> >>>>>> because the data are empirical and tangible, subject to linguistic
> >>> and
> >>>>>> sociolinguistic
> >>>>>> analysis.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.
> >>>> amazon.com_Voices-2DWithin-2DHistory-2DScience-2D&d=DwIFaQ&c=
> >>>> aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r=
> >>>> mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=
> >>>> iXFaj8Q4I5K2fbAjp7wwg7xDtlZs8s_s7DI7l664u24&s=
> >>>> DEs5D5eLtGRTqr_XA8tkmjg4GFaAp_30zW3KKzPHIqg&e=
> >>>>>> Ourselves/dp/0465096808
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Peter
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 2:36 PM, Ulvi İçil <ulvi.icil@gmail.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Nazim Hikmet uses widely inner  thought and momologue in a work
> >> to
> >>>>> convey
> >>>>>>> the internal richness of emotion and thought of his characters.
> >>>>>> Especially
> >>>>>>> inner thought.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The name of the work is Ferhad and Sirin, and another name is
> >>> Legend
> >>>> of
> >>>>>>> love.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Anyone can see the very interesting content of the work,
> >> characters
> >>>> in
> >>>>> a
> >>>>>>> struggle in a triangle of love.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> It is a quite successful work, played by Bolshoi.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> My questions are:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Does the science of psychology make wide use of such theater
> >> work?
> >>>> i.e.
> >>>>>> in
> >>>>>>> terms of the inner thought.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Does the science of pscyhology make use of such theater work in
> >>> terms
> >>>>> of
> >>>>>>> human development? i.e. in terms of the "defects" human beings
> >>>> possess.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Ulvi
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
> >>>>>> Director,
> >>>>>> Office of Institutional Research
> >>>>>> <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
> >>>>>> Fordham University
> >>>>>> Thebaud Hall-202
> >>>>>> Bronx, NY 10458
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Phone: (718) 817-2243
> >>>>>> Fax: (718) 817-3817
> >>>>>> email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
> >>> Director,
> >>> Office of Institutional Research
> >>> <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
> >>> Fordham University
> >>> Thebaud Hall-202
> >>> Bronx, NY 10458
> >>>
> >>> Phone: (718) 817-2243
> >>> Fax: (718) 817-3817
> >>> email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
> >>>
> >>
>
>
>