[Xmca-l] Re: Neoformation and developmental change: Issue 4 article for discussion

[‪Haydi Zulfei‬ ‪]

Hello friends,
It's my own fault to begin when I reach a point to say 'It's against my preparedness'.
Why should Michael pay for my sins! 

It seems a world strange for you not to see 'process' , 'development' but invest so much in 'continuum' as literally co-ordinate and in kinship with 'continuous' which Michael uses. Additionally you cannot see 'differing qualities'? What does differing convey to your good mind? What does 'ONTOLOGICAL CONTRADICTORY ASPECTS' convey to your holy inference? And many other allusions in the writing of this ever little learner of all time! You're focusing on protests or enlightening? 'Differing qualities' is so hugely threatening than your wording of "as if there were no qualitative DIFFERENCE"!! 

Old (in double sense) Andy should have gotten my 'contradictory' as referring to his expression indicating that it's CONTRADICTION which causes any movement which Michael does not deny. The thing which accumulates up to a certain point is the CAUSE which brings up a NEW/ER which is contrary to the OLD/ER. It was just a sketch. If the error lies in the way it has been presented , it would have been very grateful to me to see you put it in the proper display. But if you oppose the whole thing in Nature... below: 

Andy recalls his "Lenin only". Does he not say dialectics is the science of the trio : Nature,Society,Thinking? What does Ilyenko say in this respect? Let alone Marx. Let Marx not be! Millions of opponents. Ernesto Laclau/Chantal Mouffe play and sing better than anyone! But the Battle is ON-line!! each day.

My 'continuum' right or wrong did not mean a line on which to put three dots of the three contradictory wholes#entities. Such a take is not in accord with my whole writing. It represents a spiral and a spiral moves , revolves. And a spiral though wholly tends towards ONWARDS has TURNS not Dots on its move. And turns know no beginnings or endings like substance of being and eternity. They turn and turn and ARE turns for us but not turns for themselves as they relate#connect to other turns and the turning of the whole. With our mind eye (epistemology) we might create fabricated points but with our corporeal eyes we  cannot even gaze at each one turn cause we begin to feel turn ourselves falling down as with the gaze at the roads , incidentally if the gaze endures , a fancy line might begin to dance before our very eyes.     

Please don't offer piece by piece in examples to correct me. Don't say neonate is/is not the newer quality of a becoming of an older quality the embryo , etc. say if Vygotsky believes in man being ensemble of social relations and what's this problem really? What glue attaches the body with the body with the body so that a club forms in which the many body instances of the club begin to dance at the tempo of the beats and drinks and dranks and drunks. This is the drop entering ... . On man it regresses to unicell in its relation to its tightiest confinement and if it was not for the leaps and bounds and mutations and not gradations , how could the falling man whisper onto the other to RISE to their feet to keep up to the relation bequeathed to them! And now some/many try to forcefully and naively inject REDUNDANT HUMANISM/MORALISM in such a significant social relations!! IN OUR SCHOOL THE ENSEMBLER IS THE SACRIFICER NOT THE JOINER!! Now the drop has become a valued moment. 

If Marx does not hurt , he also takes us in regression and retrospect to clan , commune , etc. along with it to how MORE and the transformation of MORE becomes our key solvent of the riddle of our current misery. More (produce later all along extra hands) with clan (closed) and the commune (closed) and the feudalite (initially closed) brings up FREEDOM? for the attached farmer (no more being necessary to being chained bodily soul-ly to the soil/earth/land and to the master/landowner/feudal. A while artisanship/craftsmanship helps independence. Needs arise for bartering and then commerce. Villages need to be connected on crossroads. Exchange and surplus IS ,yet, subsistence as basis prevails. This moment of MORE reaches a point where hoarding of it takes place. And to make a long story short , it's this sufficient accumulation which gives impetus to merchants first to indutrialists afterwards to gather many previously free men (farmers artisans) under the same roof so that they could work get wages. All this narration?? is to say that even commodity (previously produce product) which unites in itself use and value has its roots in older moments/turns/alternate peaks. The story of worker apparently free but actually chained to the CONDITIONS which he himself creates with his labour inevitable to his un-volitional status might need time and assurances. 

This should be continued but will not be. Certainly corrections welcome.
Haydi        


      From: David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com>
 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> 
 Sent: Saturday, 16 December 2017, 2:10:51
 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Neoformation and developmental change: Issue 4 article for discussion
   
Wolff-Michael, Haydi--

Doesn't it seem a little strange to you that we are discussing the
"transformation of quality into quantity" as if there were no qualitative
difference between the transformation of ice into water and the
"transformation" of a human embryo into a neonate, or a child into an
adult, or an adult into a stinking corpse?

Of course, it is possible to pretend they the same. It might even sometimes
be useful. For example, it is sometimes useful to say to children that
"dinosaurs learned to fly" in order to explain how one branch of the
dinosaurs, the birds, survived to the present day. Linguists sometimes talk
about "rules" of grammar as if they were "laws" of society and Newton spoke
of "laws" of gravity. The other day I taught a little game where rabbits
"eat" grass, grass "eat" soil, and soil "eats" dead rabbits. But let's not
forget how different these phenomena are; it's like an actor forgetting
that she or he is in character, and an audience forgetting that a play
is done for pay.

Embryos grow without developing: that is, they increase in quantitative
mass without any qualitative change in response to the historico-cultural
environment; that was why Vygotsky excluded them from his pedology. Adults
develop without growing; that is, they change behavioral forms without any
quantitative change in their mass; that was why Vygotsky excused adults
from his pedology. Children do both at one and the same time; indeed, the
two processes are inextricably interlinked, and that's why Vygotsky devoted
the bulk of his oeuvre to studying this complex dynamic unity.

Isn't the first step in understanding it to understand that it is
a "transformation of quantity into quality" of a very different quality?



David Kellogg

Recent Article in *Mind, Culture, and Activity* 24 (4) 'Metaphoric,
Metonymic, Eclectic, or Dialectic? A Commentary on “Neoformation: A
Dialectical Approach to Developmental Change”'

Free e-print available (for a short time only) at

http://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/YAWPBtmPM8knMCNg6sS6/full


On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 10:47 PM, Wolff-Michael Roth <
wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com> wrote:

> Haydi, in your last message, you are separating the subject and the object
> (THING). What is important is that the relation changes, and the question
> is whether there is a qualitative (rather than quantitative, continuous)
> change, that is, whether a qualitatively new form has arisen. Michael
>
>
>
> Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> --------------------
> Applied Cognitive Science
> MacLaurin Building A567
> University of Victoria
> Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2
> http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth <http://education2.uvic.ca/faculty/mroth/>
>
> New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics
> <https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/new-
> directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the-
> mathematics-of-mathematics/>*
>
>
> Excuse me , Michael! I just wanted to add , I hope you confirm , that if we
> change our lens each time , it does not mean the THING has changed. The
> thing remains the same as relative stability other than in the process of
> DEVELOPMENT which is the point you've focused on. Thanks!
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 2:42 AM, <haydizulfei@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Michael
> >
> > Thanks with briefing. And just within the limits of talking the talk
> which
> > however needs , as you say , mastery , :-) ignoring the facts that the
> > surgeon cures the patient while he does not suffer the disease and that
> the
> > coach trains the champions while he is not able to do a passing shot and
> > that this might lead us to the discovery of some hidden relation , you ,
> > however , DISTINGUISH between the two. Then you stress that trainers ARE
> > NOT players vice versa and you're bewaring yourself of not taking the
> talk
> > instead of walk. Great and emancipatory caution :-) Then we again find
> > ourselves at the same point.
> >
> > Thanks you give me examples to simplify the riddle. And this parallels my
> > want of learning from you really not complimentarily.
> >
> > Water is not ice ; ice is not steam. But we take the contradictory
> > ontological aspect of the three phenomena and put them on a continuum ,
> > process , movement and delve into it so that we reach H2O as their origin
> > and temperature as the solvent of the riddle , the cause of the leaps and
> > neoformations.
> >
> > Neoformations as you positively believe are differing qualities which
> must
> > have their due corresponding causes. You give us 'the Measure' as the
> > yardstick and we must try to learn about it.
> >
> > That said , we return to what triggered me to take your time:
> >
> > [I cannot see the sort of differences some discourses in our community
> > make between dialectics, that of Marx, and dialogism.]
> >
> > and:
> >
> > [The word, in dialogue, is several things at once (pace Bakhtin and
> > Voloshinov, Vygotsky, and Feuerbach, and Marx...)]
> >
> > I'm thinking if these several things are also distinctive. And if they
> are
> > , should not they require their due corresponding causes? Do not they
> > require , in turn , to be put on the said continuum so that each
> > realization could be traced back to its root theoretically be cognized?
> > Something other than this must be known to you especially cause 'at once'
> > might disturb even the idea of unity in diversity.
> >
> > Haydi
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > *From:* Wolff-Michael Roth <wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com>
> > *To:* Haydi Zulfei <haydizulfei@rocketmail.com>
> > *Sent:* Thursday, 14 December 2017, 21:43:05
> > *Subject:* Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Neoformation and developmental change: Issue
> > 4 article for discussion
> >
> > Haydi,
> >
> > Bourdieu (*Le sens pratique*) distinguishes practical mastery and
> > symbolic mastery. Take this example. There are a lot of people (e.g.
> sports
> > journalists, surgeons) talking about something that they do not know
> > themselves (e.g. athletes, your cancer). They symbolically master the
> > something, but they do not really "know" what they are talking about,
> that
> > is, they have not lived (through) it, have not been affected in that way,
> > have never been able to play a pass, do a passing shot, or feel the
> cancer
> > in and with their bodies in the way that those affected do.
> >
> > I am not saying what people should or should not do. But I am beware of
> > those who talk the talk while incapable of walking the walk. :-)
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Michael
> >
> >
> > Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > --------------------
> > Applied Cognitive Science
> > MacLaurin Building A567
> > University of Victoria
> > Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2
> > http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth <http://education2.uvic.ca/faculty/mroth/>
> >
> > New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics
> > <https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/new-
> directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the-
> mathematics-of-mathematics/>*
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 4:45 AM, <haydizulfei@rocketmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks Michael! Thought-provoking ... I feel many reflecting angles in
> the
> > direction of unity/identity not our presuppositions before ... taking me
> to
> > reading 'Toward A Philosophy of the Act' and other sources you introduce
> > though I had planned to read Negri's Marx beyond Marx assumed more
> related
> > to Grundrisse rather than 'The Savage Anomaly'. Just I wonder how Ilyenko
> > (whom you praise) could resolve his repeatedly conflictual issue of
> > word/verbiage#goal-oriented activity with such a firm idea that "The
> > word, in dialogue, is several things at once (pace Bakhtin and
> Voloshinov,
> > Vygotsky, and Feuerbach, and Marx...). Doesn't he discredit 'verbiage'
> > including Learners' (Teaching Learners How to Think) as against the
> varying
> > contents (arising from activities) which demand covering , being
> > realized/crystalized/embodied in shells we call words in dialogues ,
> > discourses , communication. I guess that Ilyenko's 'how to think'
> contrasts
> > with 'knowledge in words' as he believes that verbalizing is not
> > necessarily conceptualizing (ascension from the abstract to the concrete)
> > and here I think some people take him as believing to think=to act as
> > connecting him to Spinoza's attributes in one substance whereas he
> > attributes the coming into existence of thought to a thinking person ,
> that
> > is , man.
> >
> > Admittedly Marx must not accept Hegel's 'being contains not-being' as
> > moving without stops/stability/existences. That goes also with your
> > discussion with David as referring to the periods of crises and
> stabilities
> > aside from other differences applying it to adults and other phenomena ,
> > that is , the universality of the concept , which should thus be. Crises
> > COME to give birth to Neoformations as existences not as momentarily
> > dissipating phenomena (your comment on five phases). Mikhailov in that
> > quote also puts aside the coming and going (reality/ideality) creates
> > another quasi-material base as communication (addressivity) which in this
> > form negates Monism. I'd like to review your good paragraph:
> >
> > [I am surprised by bullet (c), which attributes something to me (my
> > phantasy?). I am particularly surprised that David, who knows his
> Vygotsky
> > so intimately, would subscribe to that idea. It was Vygotsky who defined
> > consciousness in this way: "Consciousness is the experience of
> experiences
> > just like experiences are simply experiences of objects" (Vygotsky, 1997
> > [vol 4], p. 71–72)----in Russian: "Сознание есть переживание переживаний,
> > точно таким же образом, как переживания просто суть переживания
> предметов"
> > (Vygotskij, 1982 [vol 1], p. 89). In the same text, Vygotsky refers to
> Marx
> > and the doubling of experience in human labor. Marx (in the *German
> > Ideology*) writes that his conception of history **"does not explain
> praxis
> > based on the idea, [but] explains the formation of ideas out of material
> > praxis"** (1978 [German], p. 38). **Consciousness follows and arises from
> > praxis, it does not precede praxis.** (see also L. Suchman's work on the
> > relation between [abstract] plans and situated action, and H. Garfinkel
> on
> > what it means to know an instruction, and my own work on the radical
> > uncertainty in scientific discovery work, **where I show that even
> > scientists
> > having done some procedure for 30 years** **still find themselves
> > **knowing** what
> > they ***have done only*** [sometimes hours or days] after having done
> it).]
> >
> > Then communication in words/with words should be based on previous deeds
> > if they are to represent some appropriate knowledge. And I don't know
> here
> > how this notion connects to the word's instantaneous multi-variateness.
> >
> > Marx in this Grundrisse uses the word 'posit' more than a hundred times
> > like you quote differentiating 'abstract plans and situated action'. He
> > criticizes other economists for taking the numerous comings and goings as
> > leading to the positing of the workers as accumulating more than they
> need
> > appropriating their due share of the surplus value becoming capitalists
> > themselves. History has rendered a halt to the Socialist Bloc yet workers
> > are in the streets for their occupation and bread. History might take a
> > hundred years or an whole epoch as a MOMENT OF such and such MOVEMENT but
> > that's theory and not actuality.
> >
> > Excuse me Michael! I just wanted to thank and leave but my thought
> ensued.
> > This is against my preparedness. I will follow your other excellent
> > guidances.
> >
> > Best wishes
> >
> > Haydi
> > ------------------------------
> > *From:* Wolff-Michael Roth <wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com>
> > *To:* haydizulfei@rocketmail.com
> > *Sent:* Wednesday, 13 December 2017, 22:39:05
> > *Subject:* Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Neoformation and developmental change: Issue
> > 4 article for discussion
> >
> > Haydi, all:
> >
> > concerning (Hegelian) dialectics, Andy seems to be the specialist in our
> > community. I cannot see the sort of differences some discourses in our
> > community make between dialectics, that of Marx, and dialogism.
> >
> > Marx clearly distinguishes his method from that of Hegel: "In its
> > foundation, my dialectical method not only differs from Hegels but is
> *its
> > direct opposite*" (Ger & Rus chapter 23 of complete works, Capital, p. 27
> > [Ger.]). Andy tends to present a Hegelian Marx, whereas other scholars
> > exhibit a Spinozist Marx. Marx describes the coming and going during an
> > exchange process, and the unity/identity of use-value and
> > exchange-value----which exist not because of the different perspectives
> of
> > buyer and seller but because of the unity of the exchange (act). This
> > exchange is a movement, thus non-self-identical; that same
> > coming-and-going, Mikhailov draws upon to explain the very existence of
> > mind. And Bakhtin's dialogism (dialogical relation) is a movement of
> > coming-and-going, where coming and going do not exist independently,
> where
> > any boundary is itself an effect rather than the cause of its parts.
> >
> > Mead, too, describes emergence in this way: something belonging to two
> > orders, its nature in the subsequent order unpredictable from the
> > perspective of the first order. He writes that sociality is experience.
> > "the situation in which the novel event is in both the old order and the
> > new which its advent heralds. Sociality is *the capacity for being
> > several things at once*" (*Philosophy of the Present, *p. 49). The word,
> > in dialogue, is several things at once (pace Bakhtin and Voloshinov,
> > Vygotsky, and Feuerbach, and Marx...)
> >
> > Negri (*The Savage Anomaly*, p. 50) writes about the method of Spinoza:
> > "the method ... is dialectical. But let us not confuse the matter: It is
> > dialectical only because it rests on the versatility of being, on its
> > expansivity, on the diffusive and potent nature of its concept. This
> > method, then, is precisely the opposite of a dialectical method. At every
> > point that the wholeness of being is closed, it is also opened. In the
> case
> > at hand, now, here, it demands to be forced open: It wants a rule of
> > movement, a definition of the actual articulation or, at least, of the
> > possibility of articulation." That is what I see in the Marx I read; and
> > that is in the Bakhtin I read.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> >
> >
> > Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor
> >
> > ------------------------------ ------------------------------
> > --------------------
> > Applied Cognitive Science
> > MacLaurin Building A567
> > University of Victoria
> > Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2
> > http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth <http://education2.uvic.ca/faculty/mroth/>
> >
> > New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics
> > <https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/new-
> directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the-
> mathematics-of-mathematics/>*
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 10:30 AM, <haydizulfei@rocketmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hello Michael,
> >
> > Since Alfredo came here , new vistas have been opened to the
> > viewers/spectators. In the old days , I had you but with very little
> > understanding of what you used to say. Now I won't claim far greater
> > comprehension of what is being said and explained. But the fact is I feel
> > much closer to what comes from you that I'd rather call 'appealing' ,
> > 'revealing' 'fascinating'. I've read much of your articles , try to
> > understand your Marx or the Marx you introduce. I'm happy you're sharing
> > your ideas with us again these days. At times they are very brief but
> this
> > piece is much more revealing. We need to hear more and more from you. I
> > really feel we're breathing fresh air. Thank you so much!
> >
> > And I appreciate your replying to :
> >
> > And, we can rally Bakhtin (the one of *The
> > Philosophy of the Act*
> >
> > You well understand why I'm posing this question. Bakhtin's acceptance of
> > dialogics , rejection of Dialectics (I so fancy) or replacement of
> > dialectics with dialogics and 'the philosophy of the act'?? ACT of
> > communication? Activity act? Action act? One could very easily equalize
> > intercourse with communication. All depends on depths and essences of
> what
> > we intend to express as far as they refer to the actuality of the
> affairs.
> > Again you well know I've always seen word/dialogue/communication as
> arising
> > in the context/situation of work/labour/practical activity never
> > dislocating these latter ones. But during all these years all those who
> > opposed act also opposed Marx , ANL , etc. But now you base most of your
> > writings on Marx. I'm now almost finishing Grundrisse if you'd like to go
> > through references to that work. Thanks! By the way I've read these last
> > three articles (article,commentary,response) many times though the
> response
> > seemed difficult to me. I need to get exercised with it.
> >
> > All the best wishes
> >
> > Haydi
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > *From:* Wolff-Michael Roth <wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com>
> > *To:* "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> > *Sent:* Wednesday, 13 December 2017, 20:09:27
> > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Neoformation and developmental change: Issue 4
> > article for discussion
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > The first thing I note in the text David sent is the attribution of ideas
> > to people. I think about this issue differently. Ideas, because abstract,
> > are not of people. They are aspects of discourses of our community. We
> > espouse such discourses and contribute to developing them, but they
> always
> > belong to us and never to me---recall the last paragraphs of *Thinking
> and
> > Speech: *the word is a reality for two but impossible for one.
> >
> > So what the article I authored presents is an ordering of phenomena in
> > which *qualitatively* new forms arise. The description of the emergence
> of
> > *qualitatively* new forms is the very core of Thom's *catastrophe
> theory*.
> > This theory provides us with a way of classifying particular
> > phenomena---and in this way, it is as concrete an endeavor as any other
> > tied to our communal activities. Thus, unlike what the paragraph in
> bullet
> > (b) states, the published text is not about pure abstraction. It is
> about a
> > way of including Vygotsky's neoformation among other phenomena of
> > neoformations. Moreover , the article provides a way in which authors,
> > *concretely*, arrive at satisfying certain requirements for phenomena to
> be
> > developmental rather than merely incremental. In this way, the article
> > satisfies what bullet (a) states. It provides for the methodological
> steps
> > to be taken to be able to ascertain such phenomena. I cannot see any
> > attempts being made in the text to assimilate adult forms of development
> to
> > infant and child development. Instead, it makes all of these forms
> > empirical issues. How do you show that there is a change to a
> qualitatively
> > new form? This is the question the article answers.
> >
> > I am surprised by bullet (c), which attributes something to me (my
> > phantasy?). I am particularly surprised that David, who knows his
> Vygotsky
> > so intimately, would subscribe to that idea. It was Vygotsky who defined
> > consciousness in this way: "Consciousness is the experience of
> experiences
> > just like experiences are simply experiences of objects" (Vygotsky, 1997
> > [vol 4], p. 71–72)----in Russian: "Сознание есть переживание переживаний,
> > точно таким же образом, как переживания просто суть переживания
> предметов"
> > (Vygotskij, 1982 [vol 1], p. 89). In the same text, Vygotsky refers to
> Marx
> > and the doubling of experience in human labor. Marx (in the *German
> > Ideology*) writes that his conception of history "does not explain praxis
> > based on the idea, [but] explains the formation of ideas out of material
> > praxis" (1978 [German], p. 38). Consciousness follows and arises from
> > praxis, it does not precede praxis. (see also L. Suchman's work on the
> > relation between [abstract] plans and situated action, and H. Garfinkel
> on
> > what it means to know an instruction, and my own work on the radical
> > uncertainty in scientific discovery work, where I show that even
> scientists
> > having done some procedure for 30 years still find themselves knowing
> what
> > they have done only [sometimes hours or days] after having done it).
> >
> > That point Vygotsky makes about consciousness is the same that we find in
> > Marx, when he writes that consciousness [Bewußtsein] cannot ever be
> > anything else than conscious [bewußtes] being [Sein] (in *German
> > Ideology*).
> > In the same vein, Heidegger distinguishes Being [Sein] from beings
> > [Seiendes]; and G.H. Mead does a similar move when he shows that
> > consciousness is the presence of the distant object only attained in the
> > future. I could continue the list with a series of French philosophers,
> > developing these ideas further. And, we can rally Bakhtin (the one of
> *The
> > Philosophy of the Act*) and Mead (*The Philosophy of the Act* [he,
> > too] and *The
> > Philosophy of the Present*).
> >
> > I would never claim that consciousness is individual---the word itself
> > implies that consciousness is knowing [Lat. *scīre*] together [Lat.
> > *co[n,m]-*]. It would not be smart claiming it to be individual, given
> the
> > long history of scholars showing us why it has to be otherwise: Marx,
> > Il'enkov, Mamardashvili, Mead, and the list goes on.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor
> >
> > ------------------------------ ------------------------------
> > --------------------
> > Applied Cognitive Science
> > MacLaurin Building A567
> > University of Victoria
> > Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2
> > http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth <http://education2.uvic.ca/ faculty/mroth/
> > <http://education2.uvic.ca/faculty/mroth/>>
> >
> > New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics
> > <https://www.sensepublishers. com/catalogs/bookseries/new-
> > directions-in-mathematics-and- science-education/the-
> > mathematics-of-mathematics/
> > <https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/new-
> directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the-
> mathematics-of-mathematics/>
> > >*
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 3:08 AM, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Alfredo:
> > >
> > > Actually, I think there are three threads we can twist together.
> > >
> > > a) Do adults develop? This is one of the major issues that divided
> > Vygotsky
> > > from the "psycho-technicians" of his time (e.g. Isaac Spielrein).
> > Vygotsky
> > > was consistent: the child is not a short adult, and the adult is not a
> > > senile child, so child development cannot be seen as a kind of dress
> > > rehearsal for adult development, nor can adult development be seen as
> > > continuing child development by other means: there is a qualitative
> > > difference between the adolescent and the young adult that does not
> exist
> > > even between the schoolchild and the adolescent.
> > >
> > > b) Did Vygotsky ever rise to the concrete? Should he even have tried?
> > This
> > > is one of the issues that divides Sasha from Wolff-Michael, and also
> > > divides Wolff-Michael from me. Sasha believes that without rising to
> the
> > > concrete, we cannot speak of the Marxist method at all. To me that
> > > necessarily means making the concept of neoformation more specific and
> > more
> > > age-dependent--but Wolff-Michael wants to make it much more general and
> > > consequently abstract.
> > >
> > > c)  What is "perezhivanie" (as a technical term) and what would it mean
> > for
> > > it to change "dialectically"? Wolff-Michael has set a cat amongst the
> > > pigeons by defining consciousness itself as "perizhivanie of
> > > perizhivanie".  On the one hand, this seems to suggest that
> consciousness
> > > is an afterthought, and that children cannot have any consciousness at
> > all;
> > > it also seems (to me) to imply that consciousness is essentially
> > > individual, the product of reflection upon reflections (and there is a
> > > similar argument being made, rather sloppily, by Michael Luntley in the
> > > current Educational Philosophical and Theory...
> > >
> > > Luntley, M. (2017) Forgetski Vygotsky, Educational Philosophy and
> Theory,
> > > 49:10, 957-970, DOI: 10.1080/00131857.2016.1248341
> > >
> > > And yet there are two things about Wolff-Michael's formula that do
> appeal
> > > to me:
> > >
> > > 1. The idea that dialectical development is essentially differentiation
> > and
> > > not replacement of one form by another. If consciousness is essentially
> > > perizhivanie turned back on itself (like language turned back on
> itself)
> > it
> > > is easy to see how we develop--by unraveling it.
> > >
> > > 2. The idea that consciousness is the "meaning of meaning". Of course,
> > > that's not exactly what he said, but it is what I get when I turn it
> back
> > > on itself....
> > >
> > >
> > > David Kellogg
> > >
> > > Recent Article in *Mind, Culture, and Activity* 24 (4) 'Metaphoric,
> > > Metonymic, Eclectic, or Dialectic? A Commentary on “Neoformation: A
> > > Dialectical Approach to Developmental Change”'
> > >
> > > Free e-print available (for a short time only) at
> > >
> > > http://www.tandfonline.com/ eprint/YAWPBtmPM8knMCNg6sS6/ full
> > <http://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/YAWPBtmPM8knMCNg6sS6/full>
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 7:05 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil <
> a.j.gil@iped.uio.no
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Just a reminder that the article for discussion on neoformation is
> now
> > > > open access at the MCA T&F pages.
> > > > http://www.tandfonline.com/ doi/full/10.1080/10749039. 2016.1179327
> > <http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2016.1179327>
> > > >
> > > > There recently were questions in this list concerning adult
> > development.
> > > > There was then no mention to this article, which I think was already
> > > > published, but it turns out that it discusses a developmental
> turn-over
> > > in
> > > > the professional and everyday life of an adult teacher, using and
> > > > discussing the concept of neoformation and the associated law of
> > > transition
> > > > of quantity into quality. Vygotsky introduced the concept in writings
> > > about
> > > > child development, and so I assume there may be issues or challenges
> > > > specific to the extension of these notions beyond child development.
> I
> > > > wonder what others in this list and outside it think, how and whether
> > > those
> > > > interested in adult development find the contributions present in the
> > > > article relevant/appealing/ problematic...
> > > >
> > > > Alfredo
> > > > ______________________________ __________
> > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd. edu
> > <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd. edu
> > <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
> > > > on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
> > > > Sent: 07 December 2017 19:33
> > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Neoformation and developmental change: Issue 4
> > article
> > > > for    discussion
> > > >
> > > > Steemed xmca'ers,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > the year is close to its end and we have yet to discuss a selected
> > > article
> > > > from Issue 4. The choice this time is an article written by
> > Wolff-Michael
> > > > Roth: "Neoformation: A Dialectical Approach to Developmental
> Change?".
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The article, which is attached and will be made open access for a
> brief
> > > > time soon, brings up the concept of "neoformation", a Vygotskian
> notion
> > > > that has appeared more than once in xmca but which is not so common
> in
> > > the
> > > > literature, despite having quite a methodological import in
> Vygotsky's
> > > > writings.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I believe the topic is timely given parallel discussions and
> critiques
> > to
> > > > Vygotsky in xmca and in recent literature. Moreover, the article
> brings
> > > > with it a companion, David's Kellogg commentary (which is open access
> > > right
> > > > now), and a response by Michael. So its a 3 for 1 treat!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The whole issue is published here:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.tandfonline.com/ toc/hmca20/current?nav=tocList
> > <http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/current?nav=tocList>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Michael has kindly agreed to join the conversation in the coming
> days,
> > > and
> > > > I encourage you all to have a look at the paper and not to be shy
> > > bringing
> > > > in comments and questions. I think this is a unique opportunity we
> have
> > > for
> > > > digging into the different ways in which Vygotsky's legacy may live
> on
> > in
> > > > current and future CHAT and CHAT-related research/literature.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Alfredo
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>