[Xmca-l] Re: Neoformation and developmental change: Issue 4 article for discussion

[Alfredo Jornet Gil]

HI James, 

interesting thoughts, particularly those on the role of social science; and a different way to put things when it comes to "meaning", which is of course welcome. But I wonder about your emphasis on the "within the individual" when you describe signs and the meaning of meaning. How are, in the framework that you set forth, the "social, cultural, and historical contexts" that you mention come to be involved in the process of change or reconstitution that you describe? Are they external input that appear only and always reflected in signs "within the individual" (in which case the account seems dualist, which on the other hand is not a reproach, would be okey too if one finds that road useful)? Or is there other more materialist aspect in your account that addresses context as something internal to this process? I read Michael's piece working towards the latter, where Leandro's changes are manifestation of a changing whole that is not reducible to "within Leandro", and I think it is here that your respective accounts disengage (or rather where they can potentially engage).  

Alfredo
________________________________________
From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of Wolff-Michael Roth <wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com>
Sent: 14 December 2017 23:54
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Neoformation and developmental change: Issue 4 article for discussion

Hi James, it looks like you did not read my message or my message did not
come through. For Vygotsky, consciousness is experience of experience, not
meaning of meaning. The "inner contradictions" are not logical ones, like
your talk about the mental suggests. They exist because activity theory
looks at living phenomena, which, because in time and producing time,
inherently contain differences... The smallest unit of movement still is
movement, and within it, there is change, so that the different parts are
not the same but themselves in movement. Michael


Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor

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On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 2:45 PM, James Ma <jamesma320@gmail.com> wrote:

> David's point that consciousness is the meaning of meaning suits me well
> and I'd like to extend a bit, referring to social science research in
> general as well as neoformation in materialist dialectics.
>
>
>
> I see consciousness as a nexus through which mental activity takes place,
> i.e. it is where mental content is enlivened (animated) or more to the
> point "semiotised" in that it is predominantly made up of signs (or
> "psychic images" as Jung would say) and their likeness. This brings into
> focus the relationship between signs and their likeness - such relationship
> manifests itself as the meaning of meaning that is ever intentional
> (wilful), interpretative (hence subjective) and situational (tied to given
> social, cultural and historical contexts).
>
>
>
> Premised on this, in social science research, the researcher's
> self-function as instrument for research is arguably to be first and
> foremost recognised. The profundity of ethics is thus concerned with people
> and knowledge. Here, "people" refers to not only those you are studying but
> also those who are conducting the study; "knowledge" contains the notion
> that by doing research you make a claim to knowledge in terms of how you
> see what you see and why. The very purpose of social science research is
> thus not to offer a definitive answer to a big question but rather to
> induct other people into your way of thinking and knowing. In this sense,
> social science research is by nature subjective, self-evident and
> insusceptible of final conclusions - to which the *ad infinitum* of
> Peircean semiosis applies.
>
>
>
> Regarding neoformation, the transformation of quantity into quality occurs
> when the meaning of meaning undergoes reconstitution or reconstruction
> within the individual, as in the case of Leandro in Roth's article.
> Importantly, internal contradictions within an individual precipitate
> neoformation as a qualitative change, that is, instead of knowing, he is
> reconstituting or reconstructing the meaning of meaning instead of knowing
> it.
>
>
>
> James
>
>
> On 13 December 2017 at 11:08, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Alfredo:
> >
> > Actually, I think there are three threads we can twist together.
> >
> > a) Do adults develop? This is one of the major issues that divided
> Vygotsky
> > from the "psycho-technicians" of his time (e.g. Isaac Spielrein).
> Vygotsky
> > was consistent: the child is not a short adult, and the adult is not a
> > senile child, so child development cannot be seen as a kind of dress
> > rehearsal for adult development, nor can adult development be seen as
> > continuing child development by other means: there is a qualitative
> > difference between the adolescent and the young adult that does not exist
> > even between the schoolchild and the adolescent.
> >
> > b) Did Vygotsky ever rise to the concrete? Should he even have tried?
> This
> > is one of the issues that divides Sasha from Wolff-Michael, and also
> > divides Wolff-Michael from me. Sasha believes that without rising to the
> > concrete, we cannot speak of the Marxist method at all. To me that
> > necessarily means making the concept of neoformation more specific and
> more
> > age-dependent--but Wolff-Michael wants to make it much more general and
> > consequently abstract.
> >
> > c)  What is "perezhivanie" (as a technical term) and what would it mean
> for
> > it to change "dialectically"? Wolff-Michael has set a cat amongst the
> > pigeons by defining consciousness itself as "perizhivanie of
> > perizhivanie".  On the one hand, this seems to suggest that consciousness
> > is an afterthought, and that children cannot have any consciousness at
> all;
> > it also seems (to me) to imply that consciousness is essentially
> > individual, the product of reflection upon reflections (and there is a
> > similar argument being made, rather sloppily, by Michael Luntley in the
> > current Educational Philosophical and Theory...
> >
> > Luntley, M. (2017) Forgetski Vygotsky, Educational Philosophy and Theory,
> > 49:10, 957-970, DOI: 10.1080/00131857.2016.1248341
> >
> > And yet there are two things about Wolff-Michael's formula that do appeal
> > to me:
> >
> > 1. The idea that dialectical development is essentially differentiation
> and
> > not replacement of one form by another. If consciousness is essentially
> > perizhivanie turned back on itself (like language turned back on itself)
> it
> > is easy to see how we develop--by unraveling it.
> >
> > 2. The idea that consciousness is the "meaning of meaning". Of course,
> > that's not exactly what he said, but it is what I get when I turn it back
> > on itself....
> >
> >
> > David Kellogg
> >
> > Recent Article in *Mind, Culture, and Activity* 24 (4) 'Metaphoric,
> > Metonymic, Eclectic, or Dialectic? A Commentary on “Neoformation: A
> > Dialectical Approach to Developmental Change”'
> >
> > Free e-print available (for a short time only) at
> >
> > http://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/YAWPBtmPM8knMCNg6sS6/full
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 7:05 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Just a reminder that the article for discussion on neoformation is now
> > > open access at the MCA T&F pages.
> > > http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2016.1179327
> > >
> > > There recently were questions in this list concerning adult
> development.
> > > There was then no mention to this article, which I think was already
> > > published, but it turns out that it discusses a developmental turn-over
> > in
> > > the professional and everyday life of an adult teacher, using and
> > > discussing the concept of neoformation and the associated law of
> > transition
> > > of quantity into quality. Vygotsky introduced the concept in writings
> > about
> > > child development, and so I assume there may be issues or challenges
> > > specific to the extension of these notions beyond child development. I
> > > wonder what others in this list and outside it think, how and whether
> > those
> > > interested in adult development find the contributions present in the
> > > article relevant/appealing/problematic...
> > >
> > > Alfredo
> > > ________________________________________
> > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> >
> > > on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
> > > Sent: 07 December 2017 19:33
> > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Neoformation and developmental change: Issue 4
> article
> > > for    discussion
> > >
> > > Steemed xmca'ers,
> > >
> > >
> > > the year is close to its end and we have yet to discuss a selected
> > article
> > > from Issue 4. The choice this time is an article written by
> Wolff-Michael
> > > Roth: "Neoformation: A Dialectical Approach to Developmental Change?".
> > >
> > >
> > > The article, which is attached and will be made open access for a brief
> > > time soon, brings up the concept of "neoformation", a Vygotskian notion
> > > that has appeared more than once in xmca but which is not so common in
> > the
> > > literature, despite having quite a methodological import in Vygotsky's
> > > writings.
> > >
> > >
> > > I believe the topic is timely given parallel discussions and critiques
> to
> > > Vygotsky in xmca and in recent literature. Moreover, the article brings
> > > with it a companion, David's Kellogg commentary (which is open access
> > right
> > > now), and a response by Michael. So its a 3 for 1 treat!
> > >
> > >
> > > The whole issue is published here:
> > >
> > > http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/current?nav=tocList
> > >
> > >
> > > Michael has kindly agreed to join the conversation in the coming days,
> > and
> > > I encourage you all to have a look at the paper and not to be shy
> > bringing
> > > in comments and questions. I think this is a unique opportunity we have
> > for
> > > digging into the different ways in which Vygotsky's legacy may live on
> in
> > > current and future CHAT and CHAT-related research/literature.
> > >
> > >
> > > Alfredo
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
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