[Xmca-l] Re: Experienced Thinkers and Perezhivanie

Andy Blunden ablunden@mira.net
Mon Dec 11 16:23:07 PST 2017


It raises but does not answer the problem how we are to
conceive of "the environment."

Of course, I understand the point being made, which is the
foundation of the ecological point of view, a more developed
approach to the understanding of biology then organism and
cell. These are crucial insights, but isn't "environment" in
this sense a concept relative to the particular organism in
question? Where does the concept of "ecosystem" fit in here
then? I am not trying to "get around" anything and adding
the word "flexible" doesn't help either.

Andy

------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Blunden
http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
On 12/12/2017 11:13 AM, Greg Thompson wrote:
> Alfredo,
> Just wondering if you are pointing to something like
> Bateson's "organism-in-the-environment"?
> Here is one line from Bateson's Korzybsky lecture:
> "The unit of survival is a flexible
> organism-in-its-environment."
>
> Here is the full text of the lecture:
> http://www.generalsemantics.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/gsb-37-bateson.pdf
>
> Andy, do you think that thinking
> person-in-their-environment would get around the concern
> that you raise?
>
> -greg
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 4:03 PM, Andy Blunden
> <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>
>     Yes, I presumed that that was what was intended -
>     i.e., that
>     a person manifests different aptitudes in the context of
>     different activities. To me, introducing the phrase
>     "person-environment units" is not helpful here. "Aptitude"
>     is an abstraction from "person" and "activity" but one
>     which
>     forms a normal part of our perception and cognition of our
>     fellow humans, and it probably takes us many years to see
>     that a person is not the same person, when they are
>     put in a
>     different activity context. In "The Problem of the
>     Environment," Vygotsky deal with the fact that traumatic
>     experiences impact on the development of the entire
>     person,
>     that is, they will impact on a person's actions in
>     different
>     environments, beyond that in which the traumatic
>     experience
>     was survived, and that is something which would be
>     ruled out
>     by taking "person-environment" as a unit.
>
>     Andy
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------
>     Andy Blunden
>     http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>     <http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm>
>     On 12/12/2017 2:07 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote:
>     > Snow is interested in measuring aptitude taking a
>     transactional perspective, and talks about
>     person-situation units; person-situation units are
>     therefore units of Aptitude.
>     >
>     > Snow then says that "there is therefore no detached
>     or abstracted list of qualities of instructional
>     treatments that will be equally important for all
>     persons or similar list of qualities of persons that
>     will be equally important for all treatments. Aptitude
>     is the unique coalition of affordances and
>     effectivities in particular person-treatment systems"
>     (Snow, 1992, p. 25).
>     >
>     > It makes sense to me, and sounds extremely close to
>     what Vygotsky was saying in his lecture on "the
>     environment". Obviously, this is not an orthodox
>     Marxist take, or else the investigation would take us
>     to some unit particular to a given historically
>     developed (in this case, person-treatment) system. But
>     so neither was VYgotsky's perezhivanie, if only
>     because he had not the time to work it further
>     (although others like Leont'ev and Sasha had less
>     hopes on that possibility). Yet, both ideas seem to me
>     quite inspiring and informative as general heuristics
>     with regard to how to proceed methodologically: if I
>     am to studying intelligence, or aptitude, or
>     experience, and I am doing so in terms of a unit that
>     does not integrate within itself a transaction between
>     person and situation, then I am probably going to have
>     troubles to put back together what my   analyses has
>     dismembered. Also, note that I had written
>     "environment," where Snow had written "situation". I
>     like the latter better.
>     >
>     > Snow, R. E. (1992). Aptitude theory: Yesterday,
>     today, and tomorrow. Educational Psychologist, 27, 5–32.
>     >
>     > Alfredo
>     > ________________________________________
>     > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>     <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>     <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>     <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> on behalf of
>     Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
>     <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
>     > Sent: 11 December 2017 15:22
>     > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>     <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>     > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Experienced Thinkers and
>     Perezhivanie
>     >
>     > Alfredo, what on Earth does it mean: "'aptitude'
>     precisely
>     > in terms of person-environment unit."?
>     >
>     > Surely the term "unit" implies a relation: A is a
>     unit of B.
>     > Yes? What is the A and B here? I don't doubt that
>     there is a
>     > perfectly coherent idea behind this, but I find this
>     kind of
>     > formulation mystifying.
>     >
>     > Andy
>     >
>     >
>     ------------------------------------------------------------
>     > Andy Blunden
>     > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>     <http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm>
>     > On 11/12/2017 7:01 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote:
>     >> In a book Wolff-Michael Roth and I wrote last year
>     (http://www.springer.com/us/book/9783319398679
>     <http://www.springer.com/us/book/9783319398679>), as
>     well as in a paper that we are co-writing right now on
>     how a group of kids and a teacher get better at
>     reading/performing theatre scripts, we seek to examine
>     trajectories of development in terms of
>     person-environment units—which is how Vygotsky defined
>     perezhivanie. In both cases, we find recourse in the
>     work of educational psychologist Richard E. Snow, who
>     worked towards a definition of the notion 'aptitude'
>     precisely in terms of person-environment unit.
>     >>
>     >> Snow would define aptitudes as "initial states of
>     persons that influence later developments, given
>     specified conditions... the are ... not merely
>     correlates of learning, but rather are propaedeutic to
>     (i.e., needed as preparation for) learning in the
>     particular situation at hand" (Snow, 1992, p. 6). To
>     me, this definition comes very close to what Dewey
>     referred to as continuity of experience, the basic
>     principle that "every experience enacted and undergone
>     modifies the one who acts and undergoes, while this
>     modification affects, whether we wish it or not, the
>     quality of subsequent experiences" (Dewey in
>     Experience and Education). It was Dewey who, together
>     with Arthur Bentley and while critiquing empiricist
>     approaches,  asserted that,
>     >> "The word experience should be dropped entirely
>     from discussion unless held strictly to a single
>     definite use: that, namely, of calling attention to
>     the fact that Existence has organism and environment
>     as its aspects, and can not be identified with either
>     as an independent isolate". With Snow's notion of
>     aptitude, then, we are not dealing with a dualistic
>     view on intelligence, but with an attempt at a
>     monistic approach to what it means becoming skilled, a
>     skilled thinking body one may add.
>     >>
>     >> And so, if I wonder on the relation between
>     "experienced thinkers" and "perezhivanie" that Robert
>     proposed, I think that an experienced thinker is she
>     who finds herself at the verge of an open path upon
>     which walking further presents as an immediate
>     possibility, for her way of walking has become more
>     path-like; or her path has become more walk-able. Say
>     path, say math, say dealing with messages at a list
>     server.
>     >>
>     >> Others?
>     >> Alfredo
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> ________________________________________
>     >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>     <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>     <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>     <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> on behalf of
>     Annalisa Aguilar <annalisa@unm.edu
>     <mailto:annalisa@unm.edu>>
>     >> Sent: 10 December 2017 18:57
>     >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>     >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Experienced Thinkers and
>     Perezhivanie
>     >>
>     >> Coincidentally, I met a man from Belarus last Wed,
>     Vera's day, but before I knew it would be.
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> He moved here with his wife and they will soon have
>     a child.
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> Once I learned from where he hailed, I said, "Oh
>     Vygotsky is from there!"
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> After seeing confusion on his face, I had to remind
>     him who he was... the famous Russian psychologist?
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> The light went off and he said he had studied him
>     20 years ago.
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> I told him that I only knew a few Russian words one
>     of them being "perezhivanie" and the others "znachenie
>     slova." These are words Holbrook Mahn had taught me
>     about. Two great gifts.
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> The man from Belarus seemed perplexed about my
>     definition of perezhivanie when I'd said I understood
>     Vygotsky used it in regards to instruction, that had
>     to do with the emotional content of the environment
>     for teaching and learning.
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> For him, it meant "frustration". Not as a resulting
>     expression, but as a process, or perhaps another way
>     to say it, as activity not an end. It was a new word
>     meaning for him, and for me. So together we came to
>     appreciate why Vygotsky used that word.
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> Additionally, I learned that in our circle on the
>     listsev, it has been used as a technical term specific
>     to instruction, but perhaps I am wrong. I did not have
>     the space to read the recent thread on perezhivanie,
>     so I may be speaking out of time with recent developed
>     threads and my advanced apology if that is the case.
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> This now makes me think about controversy, such as
>     what is happening concerning last year's election, but
>     also in the US government these days, and tension
>     between the media, the president and the people.
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> I have been watching TURN, which is a TV series
>     drama about the American Revolution and the spycraft
>     of that time. There was a lot of perezhivanie going on.
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> Perezhivanie seems a very democratic word.
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> So to answer the question, I find the relationship
>     between an experienced thinker and perezhivanie is
>     timing. A choosing words appropriately.
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> Vera was excellent at that.
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> Kind regards,
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> Annalisa
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> ________________________________
>     >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>     <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>     <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>     <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> on behalf of
>     Robert Lake <boblake@georgiasouthern.edu
>     <mailto:boblake@georgiasouthern.edu>>
>     >> Sent: Saturday, December 9, 2017 1:08 PM
>     >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>     >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The illuminance that was Vera
>     >>
>     >> I have a question for the listserve. How would you
>     envision
>     >> or connect  the notion of "experienced thinkers"
>     with perezhivanie?
>     >> Can anyone share a few thoughts in along this line?
>     >> RL
>     >>
>     >> On Sat, Dec 9, 2017 at 12:48 AM, Annalisa Aguilar
>     <annalisa@unm.edu <mailto:annalisa@unm.edu>> wrote:
>     >>
>     >>> Hello colorful fish of the XMCA pond,
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> Vera's friendship was a thing nontrivial, as
>     ontologies go.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> Her academic sensibility was excellent and
>     demanding. At the same time,
>     >>> her pathos for the world swam deep. We know from
>     recent experience that
>     >>> although she did not post frequently on the list,
>     she dearly valued the
>     >>> intellectual exchange that we all enjoy here. It
>     nourished and populated
>     >>> her mind. To the end, I believe this was the case.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> My personal sense of Vera is that few people were
>     privy to the world she
>     >>> witnessed, through her eyes. I'm one who could not
>     perceive this world
>     >>> directly, but I could tell that she perceived much
>     differently than many of
>     >>> us, if only because she had witnessed a wide
>     variety of human activity
>     >>> during her long, sometimes unyielding life. I was
>     kind of standing on a
>     >>> hill beneath her vantage point and observing that
>     she could see farther
>     >>> than I could, without the means to detect what she
>     could see vividly. She
>     >>> could be silent in her thoughts and those pregnant
>     pauses could be so
>     >>> meaningful, even powerful. Wide vistas. I mean to
>     say that these silent
>     >>> pauses were almost words unto themselves. Can a
>     linguist be a linguist of
>     >>> no words?
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> Most people who met Vera and had the opportunity
>     to spend a little bit of
>     >>> time with her, as a student or otherwise, came to
>     love her. My opinion is
>     >>> if you could not love her, then you were left to
>     admire her mind, work
>     >>> ethic, and academic accomplishments, no small
>     crumbs; Vera was the arete
>     >>> that the Old Greeks talked about.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> I feel she made a good-faith effort to be
>     accepting of others even if she
>     >>> disagreed with them. She was willing to seek the
>     grey tones in a black and
>     >>> white contest. Everyone had a viewpoint and that
>     viewpoint was for its very
>     >>> existence a valid one, because it was thought by
>     someone, arising from a
>     >>> personal, perhaps intimate, experience – and this
>     demands respect, but was
>     >>> not immune to being challenged, which sometimes
>     she could do in five words
>     >>> or less.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> She did not see disagreement as an assault to her
>     being, as some of us can
>     >>> sometimes feel in heated debate, frustrating
>     disagreements, even chafing
>     >>> exasperation. She was patient, nuanced, poised.
>     Such rapport during a
>     >>> debate of ideas is the academic standard for which
>     we all must reach, given
>     >>> the world we live in today. It is imperative. I
>     feel that way because in
>     >>> this process of reaching (to listen, to search, to
>     learn), we each stretch
>     >>> a little: it's a good kind of yoga that makes each
>     of us a better
>     >>> contributor to the rest, for the rest, by the rest.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> I do not believe I am wrong to say that Vera
>     fought for a better world
>     >>> through her efforts to understand how to be a
>     better teacher and how to
>     >>> truly serve the developing minds of children who
>     might not have that many
>     >>> opportunities available to them. She encouraged
>     that temperament in her
>     >>> students, and perhaps her colleagues as well. It
>     was how to serve in order
>     >>> to achieve the best outcomes for everyone, which
>     was a sign of her wisdom.
>     >>> It is not a struggle singular to Vera, and I
>     believe every one of you has a
>     >>> dog in that race, to serve today's children and
>     tomorrow's graduate
>     >>> students, and even one another.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> Vera was also a bona fide feminist. A velvet glove
>     with a strong grip on
>     >>> the realities of gendered relationship. She was
>     not afraid to support other
>     >>> women and celebrate their accomplishments no
>     matter the size. She was not
>     >>> afraid to debate men, but I feel safe to say she
>     chose her battles when it
>     >>> mattered, but she was aware we still have a long
>     way to go, baby. She was
>     >>> aggrieved over the election and was fearful about
>     our future. I wish we
>     >>> could have shared better news with her than
>     hurricane Harvey, if you get my
>     >>> meaning.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> I also want to say something about Vera's strength
>     if only because it was
>     >>> annealed through resilience. I feel she saw
>     resilience as necessary for
>     >>> survival, and that she saw collaboration as
>     resilience expressed between
>     >>> two or more people. I think this is why she valued
>     collaboration; it is
>     >>> vital to know the dynamics of collaboration in
>     order to survive all
>     >>> challenges that life eventually presents to us. "A
>     sterling collaborator
>     >>> be," might be on her family crest.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> Additionally, Vera studied those whom we call
>     geniuses, Vygotsky being one
>     >>> of them. She told me and a classmate once during
>     office hours that she
>     >>> would continue to find new insights in his work
>     after each re-reading, so
>     >>> even after her own familiarity, we all have that
>     to look forward to in
>     >>> reading and re-reading his work. If this was the
>     case for her, then it will
>     >>> be for us.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> It occurred to me some years ago how brilliant it
>     is to study the
>     >>> development of genius. "Notebooks of the Mind" is
>     one residual of such
>     >>> work. She was onto something there. She was
>     looking at what occasions a
>     >>> person or a partnership to reach unique levels of
>     creative accomplishment;
>     >>> not what is pathological about the mind in
>     society, but what were its
>     >>> virtues? What is a mind that has developed to a
>     pinnacle, significantly
>     >>> altering a paradigm of study, creative discourse,
>     or any human endeavor?
>     >>> How does one become distinguished in creative
>     work? What was the recipe for
>     >>> that? Can it be replicated?
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> Imagine if we could all be geniuses, what would
>     the world be like? Would
>     >>> there be enough room for so many of us?
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> I think she would say, "Yes," in that delicate
>     Hungarian accent of hers.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> I suppose any doubt she might have concerning a
>     world populated with
>     >>> geniuses, precipitated from the problematic
>     baggage that the word "genius"
>     >>> carries. Consider the fallacy of Rodin's thinker,
>     his head on his fist
>     >>> where ideas spring eternal from no place in
>     particular while enthralled in
>     >>> monastic solitude. It is not real, nor is it
>     human. Instead, Vera preferred
>     >>> to call such folks "experienced thinkers." It is
>     so apt a phrase, and so
>     >>> elegant. Please consider appropriating that phrase
>     in your vocabularies, in
>     >>> memory of Vera if you want. Certainly Vera was an
>     elegant thinker; her
>     >>> speech embodied remarkable reflections that
>     revealed the ripples of her
>     >>> introspection.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> An image of koi comes to my mind's eye, as they
>     swim in a clear pond
>     >>> socially, quietly, peacefully.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> Thank you for allowing me to share my heartfelt
>     gratitude for this unique
>     >>> human being in this very long post. I want to say
>     I will miss her, but I
>     >>> feel she is with me still.
>     >>>
>     >>> I hope you feel that way too.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> Kindest regards,
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> Annalisa
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >> --
>     >> Robert Lake  Ed.D.
>     >> Associate Professor
>     >> Social Foundations of Education
>     >> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading
>     >> Georgia Southern University
>     >> P. O. Box 8144, Statesboro, GA  30460
>     >> Co-editor of *Review of Education, Pedagogy, and
>     Cultural Studies,* vol.39,
>     >> 2017
>     >> Special issue: Maxine Greene and the Pedagogy of
>     Social Imagination: An
>     >> Intellectual Genealogy.
>     >>
>     >>  http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/gred20/39/1
>     <http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/gred20/39/1>
>     >> Webpage:
>     https://georgiasouthern.academia.edu/RobertLake*Democracy
>     <https://georgiasouthern.academia.edu/RobertLake*Democracy>
>     must be
>     >> born anew in every generation, and education is its
>     midwife.* John
>     >> Dewey-*Democracy
>     >> and Education*,1916, p. 139
>     >>
>     >>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> Assistant Professor
> Department of Anthropology
> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> Brigham Young University
> Provo, UT 84602
> WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu
> <http://greg.a.thompson.byu.edu> 
> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson



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