[Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started

[Huw Lloyd]

I'm not sure there is a contradiction, here, David. With respect to the
history of ideas, one looks for the conditions which brought such knowledge
about and hence we have the genetic basis for manifold forms of its
realisation.

The degree of scope of applying a (the) method is contingent upon the
developed skills of the students.  One would not expect students to discern
their own units of analysis -- this is given to them in the form of problem
situations, but there is nothing to prevent a more advanced approach in
which this is undertaken.

Best,
Huw

On 27 November 2016 at 23:15, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com> wrote:

> Well, I understood that, Huw. But I think there are really TWO different
> ways of applying an approach to any content. One way I would call
> "multi-disciplinary". You take language or coding and you just treat it as
> a technology. "Kids--today we are going to see how we use language/coding
> in art/music/math/science." But the second way I would call
> "trans-disciplinary". You take language or coding and you treat it as a
> theme--that is, a concept, which enables the study of any particular
> content area (any content area can be studied as meaning and any content
> area can be studied as information).
>
> Take for example non-decimal number systems. We COULD approach the content
> area in a multi-disciplinary way, and study minutes and hours, or weeks and
> months, both of which depend on non-decimal counting systems. But we could
> ALSO approach the content area in a transdisciplinary way, which involves
> establishing a unit of analysis which is at one and the same time minimally
> complex and maximally simple (that is, it contains morphological analogues
> of the phenomenon we want to investigate but it is also small enough to fit
> in the mouth and the mind of a child).
>
> For non-decimal numbers systems, it seems to me that binary counting
> systems fit the bill. That is, they contain morphological analogues of any
> non-decimal number system (digital information, place value, carrying
> digits, etc.) but they also are small enough to fit in the mouth and the
> mind of a child (because actually systems of polarity, like yes/no
> questions, are essentially binary counting systems). And--what's more--I
> think that binary counting systems are also a good unit of analysis for
> coding, although that's probably something you know a whole lot more about
> than me or anybody else on this list for that matter.
>
> David Kellogg
> Macquarie University
>
> On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 9:41 AM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi David,
> >
> > Davydov's approach can be applied to any content.  The focus is upon
> > establishing a unitary conception of relations rather than attributes.
> >
> > Best,
> > Huw
> >
> > On 27 November 2016 at 21:16, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Here in Australia they are introducing "coding across the curriculum".
> It
> > > is modelled on "language across the curriculum", which was a movement
> in
> > > England in the seventies where the language of instruction in maths,
> > > sciences, arts, etc. was considered as the object of curricular
> planning.
> > > So for example when we teach base non-decimal ways of counting, we
> teach
> > > them in the context of using everyday language (e.g. word problems with
> > > hours and minutes or months and weeks, which require some counting in
> > > non-decimal systems). So too with "coding across the curriculum". Kids
> > are
> > > mostly taught using a programming language called "Stitch" developed by
> > > MIT, which uses non-numerical symbols for programming, and which can be
> > > used to do very different things in the classroom, irrespective of the
> > > discipline. You can use Stitch to create geometrical patterns, to
> > > taxonomize animals and plants, to make digital paintings, to write
> > > music, and so on. Cool stuff; kids love it.
> > >
> > > But once again you can see the emphasis is on integration of
> disciplinary
> > > knowledge "where the rubber meets the road"--that is, as everyday
> > concepts.
> > > In a weird way, the result is something like the labor schools of the
> > 1920s
> > > which Vygotsky and Blonsky and pedology generally participated in
> > building.
> > > That is, you learn about higher concepts like circumference and radius
> in
> > > the context of learning to drill or operate a lathe. This seems to me a
> > > very different kind of integration from teaching with concepts in the
> > > 1930s, which is (I think) the basis of the Davydov "germ cell" approach
> > > (and which was certainly the basis of Vygotsky's ZPD measured in
> years).
> > I
> > > think that Davydov would probably look at the Australian curriculum and
> > > say--you would like to teach coding across the curriculum? An excellent
> > > idea. Let us begin with binary number systems. Instead of starting at
> the
> > > interface, where the integration and unity of coding is really somewhat
> > > artificial and contrived and a product of market generalization, you
> > > instead start at the most abstract end, where it is genuine and real.
> > >
> > > David Kellogg
> > > Macquarie University
> > >
> > > On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 6:47 AM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > > > The subsequent trail of message showed that it is rarely too late to
> > pick
> > > > up a thread of the conversation and have sometime interesting and
> > > > informative come of it, Huw.
> > > >
> > > > In reading through the string of messages on this topic including the
> > > > earlier part of thread, I come away reinforced by the idea that the
> > > > problems associated with current STEM-accountability regimes are a
> > > > continuation and intensification of trends in education with a very
> > long
> > > > history.
> > > >
> > > > As Phillip got us to note, JS Mill made similar points regarding
> > > education
> > > > (in his case of the British elites/men, but some key ideas seem
> > > > generalizable). Still, something about the past couple of decades,
> > > perhaps
> > > > associated with the intensification and globalization of capitalist
> > modes
> > > > of production, seems qualitatively more draconian. And all
> indications
> > > are
> > > > that matters are in the process of worsening, not improving.
> > > >
> > > > I was hoping that participants could come up with counter-examples:
> > > schools
> > > > where routinely the teaching of STEM subjects was integrated into a
> > > general
> > > > curriculum and where successful, more inclusive participation in STEM
> > > > subjects could result.
> > > > In this I was disappointed.
> > > >
> > > > Ed provided Summerhill and a variety of small, elite, school
> > situations.
> > > We
> > > > did not hear from anyone associated with the dialogical education
> > > advocates
> > > > who once participated in such discussions. I think I offered up the
> > > school
> > > > that is the subject of a book by Barbara Rogoff and colleagues (From
> > > > Wikipedia - *Learning Together: Children and Adults in a School
> > Community
> > > > [Oxford press, 2002]*, co-authored with teachers Carolyn Turkanis and
> > > > Leslee Bartlett, profiled Salt Lake City's "Open Classroom," a
> > > > parent-cooperative education program that is now a K-8 charter
> school.
> > > >
> > > > Over the US Thanksgiving holiday, reading your various thoughts and
> > > > chatting with my grandchildren, I came across a case which seemed to
> > fit
> > > > Margaret and Carrie's
> > > > notions of expanded goals for stem education, and education in
> general.
> > > My
> > > > two grandchildren are going/went to a very elite school, the Lab
> School
> > > at
> > > > the U of C Chicago. At dinner they started to talk about school and
> > > > favorite teachers. Both identified one teacher who they thought was
> > > > exceptional and for the same reason.
> > > > "He respects kids. He always listens to them and takes them
> seriously."
> > > >
> > > > I am sure there are other fine teachers at the school, which is a
> > > pressure
> > > > cooker of academic achievement and the attainment of yet more
> > privilege.
> > > > But institutionalized universal education, as Mills laments in his
> > > elitest
> > > > and individualistic way (he is focused on Oxbridge), does not appear
> > > > organized to make such teachers and such classrooms ubiquitous. Its
> > > > pragmatic social reproduction functions focused on economics and
> state
> > > > power, associated with its sorting function, appear to mitigate
> strong
> > > > against any significant re-mediation. So my example serves mostly as
> an
> > > > exception that proves the rule, perhaps.
> > > >
> > > > I keep thinking about Lorena, who as Margaret and Carrie show us,
> > came*
> > > to
> > > > believe that she had become a bad person—disobedient and
> > disrespectful—in
> > > > the eyes of her teacher. *
> > > >
> > > > Very painful stuff. STEM reform as an iatrogenic disease.
> > > >
> > > > Question for those who know: How are reforms based on the sorts of
> > > > principles espoused by Davydov, Elkonin, and other
> cultural-historical
> > > > pedagogs doing in Russia these days? My impression is that they
> > struggle
> > > > for recognition and acceptance. But I could easily be wrong.
> > > >
> > > > mike
> > > >
> > > > PS- Huw-- I have not read Clive's *Civilization *and  it does not
> > appear
> > > > rapidly obtainable so could not appreciate your reference to Mill and
> > > > Clive. Results of an American public school education.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Nov 24, 2016 at 6:01 PM, Huw Lloyd <
> huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > The marketable "skill" is "good behaviour in conjunction with some
> > > > > operational knowledge". Even in technology-oriented companies,
> > > creativity
> > > > > and new knowledge are often unwelcome intruders into a
> > social-political
> > > > > situation (see for example Allen's 1977 text, Managing the Flow of
> > > > > Technology). There are many vested interests into the status-quo.
> > > > > Creativity in whatever sport, is usually against the grain. And
> then,
> > > of
> > > > > course, we have all these qualifications which repel creativity
> > through
> > > > > strict enforcement of stupid behaviour.
> > > > >
> > > > > Not sure whether I'm waking up a closing thread here, so my thanks
> to
> > > > > Margaret for discussing the paper.
> > > > >
> > > > > Best,
> > > > > Huw
> > > > >
> > > > > On 20 November 2016 at 03:34, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Sorry, I've lost the plot. That is, I don't see the connection
> > > between
> > > > > the
> > > > > > kind of educational neoliberalism that is being discussed in the
> > > > article
> > > > > > (that which is based on measurable results, on academic tracking,
> > on
> > > > > > promising goodies in return for grades and grades in return for
> > > > > schoolwork)
> > > > > > and the kind of political and economic neoliberalism that is
> being
> > > > > > discussed by Cornel. It seems to me that the policies that
> Margaret
> > > and
> > > > > > Carrie are discussing in this paper were not (politically)
> liberal,
> > > nor
> > > > > > were they new: they were taken over by Arne Duncan from the Bush
> > > > > > administration, and the Bush administration got them, via
> Clinton,
> > > from
> > > > > > good old fashioned "Back to Basics" backlash in the UK. So the
> > roots
> > > > are
> > > > > > Toryism and not liberalism.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I suppose you can argue that there is some kind of implicit
> analogy
> > > > > between
> > > > > > education and neoliberal economics: school is supposed to be some
> > > kind
> > > > of
> > > > > > neoliberal "level playing field" where children compete like
> > > > businessmen,
> > > > > > grades are "cultural capital", classes are investment
> > opportunities,
> > > > > > assessment portfolios are investment portfolios, etc. This
> analogy
> > is
> > > > > > little more than a way of whipping up interest among principals,
> > > > > teachers,
> > > > > > and even students (and as such I am not sure I am against it,
> > since I
> > > > > don't
> > > > > > see anything wrong with working class kids taking an interest in
> > the
> > > > > > getting of goodies through study). It's certainly not a good
> > > > description
> > > > > of
> > > > > > what is happening in schools: These businessmen produce no
> > > commodities,
> > > > > the
> > > > > > grades are neither exchangeable or consumable; there is no such
> > thing
> > > > as
> > > > > > credit or interest in this economy, and assets evaporate upon
> > > > graduation
> > > > > > instead of maturing.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think that the word "reform" is actually more important in
> > Margaret
> > > > and
> > > > > > Carrie's title than "neoliberal": a "reform" is usually, on the
> > lips
> > > of
> > > > > > government bureaucracy, a euphemism for backlash, and the
> policies
> > > > being
> > > > > > described are part of a more general ideological backlash against
> > > > > Deweyism
> > > > > > and progressive education: an anti-liberal reaction rather than a
> > > > > > neo-liberal reform. "Neoliberalism", taken literally, would imply
> > > that
> > > > > the
> > > > > > schools really are in the marketable skills business, and I don't
> > see
> > > > > much
> > > > > > evidence for that in the study. Am I missing something?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > David Kellogg
> > > > > > Macquarie University
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 1:24 AM, <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Margaret, Carrie, Phillip, Henry, Cornell,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > A central and key theme of this month’s article is
> neoliberalism
> > in
> > > > all
> > > > > > > its guises.
> > > > > > > In my imaginary response i am addressing the authors of the
> paper
> > > and
> > > > > > > Cornell who addresses neoliberalism, and Phillip, who shared
> > > > Cornell’s
> > > > > > > article and Henry who heard Cornell offer a way to mediate our
> > > > crises.
> > > > > > > The paper is about teaching STEM and the neoliberal agenda that
> > > > ignores
> > > > > > > the plight of those who suffer.
> > > > > > > Cornell says the answer is (democratic soulcraft). At the heart
> > of
> > > > this
> > > > > > > soulcraft is truth telling of the reality of suffering.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In order to constitute or institute a (new) order a more
> > > pro/gressive
> > > > > > > order it seems suffering must be the key factor.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The notion of ivory towers and their responses to suffering
> seems
> > > > > > central.
> > > > > > > I also want to explore the theme of (play) in relation to
> > > suffering.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > One exemplar:
> > > > > > > There is a Buddhist who organizes gatherings where food is
> > prepared
> > > > and
> > > > > > > presented at the gatherings (for the homeless). Musical
> > instruments
> > > > are
> > > > > > > also brought and dancing proceeds.
> > > > > > > Everyone participates and this is key: You cannot tell who are
> > the
> > > > > > > homeless and who are the people who prepared the food. They are
> > > > > sharing a
> > > > > > > common (new) experience that is profoundly moving and creates a
> > > sense
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > well-being.
> > > > > > > This Buddhist practise is exemplary as a response to our
> current
> > > > > > > contemporary historical moment. It is truth telling and
> > democratic
> > > > > > > soulcraft and PLAY. (each in the other).
> > > > > > > It is one way of answering Margaret, Carrie, Cornell, Phillip,
> > and
> > > > > Henry.
> > > > > > > This Buddhist act or practice  is (crafting) an answer that
> > speaks
> > > to
> > > > > > > suffering.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > From: HENRY SHONERD
> > > > > > > Sent: November 18, 2016 7:15 PM
> > > > > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion
> > Re-started
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thank you, Phillip.
> > > > > > > "For us in these times, to even have hope is too abstract, too
> > > > > detached,
> > > > > > > too spectatorial. Instead we must be a hope, a participant and
> a
> > > > force
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > good as we face this catastrophe.”
> > > > > > > That’s my favorite part.
> > > > > > > Henry
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Nov 18, 2016, at 3:52 PM, White, Phillip <
> > > > > > Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > well, this is what Cornel West has to say:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/17/
> > > > > > > american-neoliberalism-cornel-west-2016-election
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > [https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/
> aae8946d80dac457aa8b6af3f9a9fd
> > > > > > > 5acc6b4acb/0_662_5150_3090/master/5150.jpg?w=1200&h=140&
> > > > > > > q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=crop&bm=normal&ba=bottom%
> > > 2Cleft&blend64=
> > > > > > > aHR0cHM6Ly91cGxvYWRzLmd1aW0uY28udWsvMjAxNi8wNS8yNS9vdmVybGF5
> > > > > > > LWxvZ28tMTIwMC05MF9vcHQucG5n&s=4cbd18b4943818f70304ff2cfdc3da
> > 2d]<
> > > > > > > https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/17/
> > > > > > > american-neoliberalism-cornel-west-2016-election>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Goodbye, American neoliberalism. A new era is here | Cornel
> > West<
> > > > > > > https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/17/
> > > > > > > american-neoliberalism-cornel-west-2016-election>
> > > > > > > > www.theguardian.com
> > > > > > > > Trump’s election was enabled by the policies that overlooked
> > the
> > > > > plight
> > > > > > > of our most vulnerable citizens. We gird ourselves for a
> > > frightening
> > > > > > future
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > phillip
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > > > <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.
> > > > > edu
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com <lpscholar2@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 8:16:01 PM
> > > > > > > > To: Edward Wall; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion
> > > Re-started
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So basically engaging in play may be foundational to
> learning a
> > > > > > > particular disciplinary subject matter including mathematical
> > play.
> > > > > > > > This playful approach as counterpoint to formal high stakes
> > > > > approaches.
> > > > > > > This places the scope of play (itself) at the center of our
> > > inquiry.
> > > > > > > > This feels intuitively to be relevant to exemplary ways of
> > > > learning.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Like imagination, play is not taken seriously , but may be
> > > > > foundational
> > > > > > > or necessary for learning that is exemplary.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > From: Edward Wall
> > > > > > > > Sent: November 17, 2016 4:45 PM
> > > > > > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion
> > > Re-started
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Larry
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >     There are, at least, four somewhat current possibilities
> > (I’m
> > > > not
> > > > > > > sure if they should be called exemplars) as regards mathematics
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 1. Summerhill (and, perhaps, some other English private
> > schools)
> > > > > > > > 2. Some private schools in the US (a book was written by a
> > > teacher
> > > > at
> > > > > > > one. If there is any interest I’ll see if I can dig up the
> > title).
> > > > > > > > 3. The case of Louis P. Benezet in a US public school in1929
> > > > > > > > 4. There is some indication that schools in Finland and the
> > > > > Netherlands
> > > > > > > are, perhaps, a little less ‘neoliberal' (however, the evidence
> > > isn’t
> > > > > > clear)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Basically in some of the above formal mathematics instruction
> > is
> > > > put
> > > > > > off
> > > > > > > until either children ask or until until fourth or fifth grade;
> > > > > however,
> > > > > > > children engage in, you might say, mathematical play (Dewey
> > > > recommended
> > > > > > > something like this). This is, by the way and according to
> some,
> > > also
> > > > > > what
> > > > > > > a good mathematics preK program looks like. Also, this is a bit
> > as
> > > > > > regards
> > > > > > > mathematics what the ancient Greek version of schooling for the
> > > elite
> > > > > > > looked like (i.e. mathematics was put off).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Ed
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >> On Nov 17, 2016, at  3:05 PM, lpscholar2@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> The question remains, if this neoliberal context generates
> > > > > > > (hollowed-out) educational *spaces* or institutions then is it
> > > > possible
> > > > > > we
> > > > > > > are able to offer exemplars of other educational places
> (current
> > or
> > > > > > > historical) that manifested different kinds of identity
> formation
> > > > that
> > > > > > were
> > > > > > > not hollowed out. I speculate these exemplars would embody or
> > > > incarnate
> > > > > > > deeply historical and  ethical orientations and practices.
> > > > > > > >> If we have lost our way, are there other models (cultural
> > > > > imaginaries)
> > > > > > > that co-generate developmental narratives that will nurture
> > > > well-being?
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Exemplary models that point in a certain direction
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Sent from my Windows 10 phone
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> From: Huw Lloyd
> > > > > > > >> Sent: November 17, 2016 11:32 AM
> > > > > > > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > > > > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion
> > > > Re-started
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Alfredo,
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Yes, they're pathological.  I am merely saying that the
> > problems
> > > > > > > inherent
> > > > > > > >> in the pathology can be edifying.  No, I don't think the
> > issues
> > > > can
> > > > > be
> > > > > > > >> transcended within conventional practices. Perhaps the best
> > that
> > > > can
> > > > > > be
> > > > > > > >> achieved is that the students recognise an institutional
> need
> > > for
> > > > > > "good
> > > > > > > >> behaviour" and the teacher recognises an educational need
> for
> > > real
> > > > > > > problem
> > > > > > > >> solving. For "real" education, we would need something like
> > > > > Davydov's
> > > > > > > >> system. But this is merely one view of the purpose of
> > > "education".
> > > > > > There
> > > > > > > >> are many who don't seem to recognise these (and other)
> > important
> > > > > > > >> implications.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Best,
> > > > > > > >> Huw
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> On 17 November 2016 at 18:11, Alfredo Jornet Gil <
> > > > > a.j.gil@iped.uio.no
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>> Huw,
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>> great comments. I like what you say, that the
> (institutional,
> > > > > social)
> > > > > > > >>> process always is educational, and I agree: it develops
> into
> > > the
> > > > > > > formation
> > > > > > > >>> of habit and character. But I still wonder whether all
> > > > educational
> > > > > > > >>> processes lead to growth or development, or whether we
> rather
> > > > > should
> > > > > > be
> > > > > > > >>> able to identify some processes as, we may call them,
> > > > > *pathological*
> > > > > > > (or
> > > > > > > >>> perhaps involutive?). There you have Bateson on double bind
> > and
> > > > > > > >>> schizophrenia, for example. Here, in the article, we have
> > some
> > > > > young
> > > > > > > >>> students that enter a system that generates a double bind
> (it
> > > was
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > who
> > > > > > > >>> made me aware of the connection with double bind). The
> > question
> > > > is,
> > > > > > > will
> > > > > > > >>> the system develop without some form of awareness *about*
> the
> > > > > double
> > > > > > > bind
> > > > > > > >>> that overcomes it by generating a system that does not only
> > > > include
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > >>> double bind, but also its own description (thereby
> becoming a
> > > > > higher
> > > > > > > order
> > > > > > > >>> system, one in which participants, students and teachers,
> > come
> > > to
> > > > > > grow
> > > > > > > >>> rather than come to stall).
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>> Alfredo
> > > > > > > >>> ________________________________________
> > > > > > > >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > > > > <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.
> > > > > > edu
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >>> on behalf of Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > >>> Sent: 17 November 2016 10:54
> > > > > > > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > > > > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion
> > > > Re-started
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>> Alfredo,
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>> The 'zone' is always present.  Whether it is recognised or
> > not
> > > is
> > > > > > > another
> > > > > > > >>> matter.
> > > > > > > >>> I do not think this interpretation is quite a zero sum
> game,
> > > > > because
> > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > >>> is always the aspect that the institutionalised process is
> > > > > > educational
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > >>> the laws reveal themselves one way or another.  So (from an
> > > > Illich
> > > > > > > >>> perspective) the opportunity to discover what is real
> > remains,
> > > it
> > > > > > just
> > > > > > > >>> takes a different course.
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>> Best,
> > > > > > > >>> Huw
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>> On 17 November 2016 at 07:37, Alfredo Jornet Gil <
> > > > > > a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
> > > > > > > >>> wrote:
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>>> What touches me of the article is something that perhaps
> > > relates
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > >>>> tension that I find between David's (individualistic?)
> > > approach
> > > > to
> > > > > > > >>>> prolepsis in his post (David, I thought, and continue
> > > thinking,
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > >>>> prolepsis refers to something that emerges in the relation
> > > > between
> > > > > > > two,
> > > > > > > >>> not
> > > > > > > >>>> something that either is present or absent within a
> person),
> > > and
> > > > > > > >>> Phillip's
> > > > > > > >>>> view of young people figuring out what life is all about
> > just
> > > as
> > > > > all
> > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > >>> do.
> > > > > > > >>>> And so here (and in any neoliberal school context) we have
> > > > > > wonderfully
> > > > > > > >>>> beautiful young people more or less interested in science
> or
> > > in
> > > > > > maths,
> > > > > > > >>> but
> > > > > > > >>>> all eager to live a life and evolve as best as they can
> > > > (whatever
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > >>> best
> > > > > > > >>>> may mean for each one). And then you see how the history
> and
> > > > > context
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > >>>> they come into gives them everything they need to develop
> > > > motives
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > >>>> goals; to then make sure that the majority of them won't
> > make
> > > it
> > > > > so
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > >>>> only a few privileged (or in the case of Margaret's paper
> > > none,
> > > > > > > according
> > > > > > > >>>> to the authors) succeed. And then what remains is not
> just a
> > > > > > > hollowed-out
> > > > > > > >>>> science and math identity, but also a hollowed-out soul
> that
> > > had
> > > > > > > illusion
> > > > > > > >>>> and now just doesn't. Not only a failure to provide
> > > > opportunities
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > >>>> learners to become anything(one) good about science and
> > math,
> > > > but
> > > > > > > also a
> > > > > > > >>>> robbing of other possible paths of development that may
> had
> > > > grown
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > >>> people
> > > > > > > >>>> if they had been hanging out with some other better
> company.
> > > Do
> > > > we
> > > > > > > have a
> > > > > > > >>>> term to refer to the opposite of a zone of proximal
> > > development?
> > > > > Not
> > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > >>>> the absence of it, but the strangling of it.
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>> Alfredo
> > > > > > > >>>> ________________________________________
> > > > > > > >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > > > > <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.
> > > > > > > edu>
> > > > > > > >>>> on behalf of White, Phillip <Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu>
> > > > > > > >>>> Sent: 17 November 2016 06:29
> > > > > > > >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > > > > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion
> > > > > Re-started
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>> David, the examples on page 193, students 1, 2 & 3 -
> aren't
> > > > these
> > > > > > > >>> examples
> > > > > > > >>>> of proleptic thought - especially for student 2, who looks
> > at
> > > > > where
> > > > > > > she
> > > > > > > >>> is
> > > > > > > >>>> "I have my own standards", a statement of the present,
> then
> > a
> > > > > > looking
> > > > > > > >>> back
> > > > > > > >>>> at  what has happened, "I like to get straight A's". and
> > then
> > > > > > setting
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > >>>> target for the future, "help for like to get in college
> and
> > > > stuff,
> > > > > > so
> > > > > > > >>> yeah,
> > > > > > > >>>> I participate in a lot of stuff." ending with a
> reassertion
> > of
> > > > > > present
> > > > > > > >>>> activities to attain future goals.
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>> and there is a preponderance of the use of "I", rather
> than
> > > > "you".
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>> i'd give the young people for credit than a myopia focused
> > > > merely
> > > > > on
> > > > > > > >>> their
> > > > > > > >>>> age: the business of young people is figuring out what
> life
> > is
> > > > all
> > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > >>>> and how to participate, just as adults and infants and old
> > > > people
> > > > > > > like me
> > > > > > > >>>> do.
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>> i'm not convinced that your arguments are supported by the
> > > data
> > > > in
> > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > >>>> Eisenhard / Allen paper.
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>> phillip
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>> ________________________________
> > > > > > > >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > > > > <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.
> > > > > > > edu>
> > > > > > > >>>> on behalf of David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > >>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 1:24:35 PM
> > > > > > > >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > > > > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion
> > > > > Re-started
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>> Actually, Henry, I was attacking the idea that tense is an
> > > empty
> > > > > > > mental
> > > > > > > >>>> space. I guess I am a little like Larry: when we discuss
> > > > articles
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > >>> a
> > > > > > > >>>> strong tendency to try to make them relevant to what I am
> > > doing
> > > > > > rather
> > > > > > > >>> than
> > > > > > > >>>> to drop what I am doing and go and discuss what everybody
> > else
> > > > is
> > > > > > > >>>> discussing. So what I am doing right now is trying to make
> > > sense
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > >>>> story-telling data where the adults are all over the map
> on
> > > > > tenses,
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > >>> the
> > > > > > > >>>> kids seem to stick to one tense only. The adults are
> > slipping
> > > in
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > out
> > > > > > > >>> of
> > > > > > > >>>> mental spaces. The kids are telling stories.
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>> I think the relevance to the article is this: When you
> look
> > at
> > > > the
> > > > > > way
> > > > > > > >>> the
> > > > > > > >>>> article frames institutional practices and figured worlds,
> > we
> > > > see
> > > > > > > >>>> prolepsis--a preoccupation with the future. But when we
> look
> > > at
> > > > > what
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > >>>> kids are doing and saying it is very much in the moment.
> Is
> > > this
> > > > > > > simply
> > > > > > > >>>> because mental processes like "like" and "want" tend to
> take
> > > > > simple
> > > > > > > >>> present
> > > > > > > >>>> (because they are less defined than material processes)?
> Or
> > is
> > > > it
> > > > > > > because
> > > > > > > >>>> while the institutions have the near future firmly in view
> > and
> > > > the
> > > > > > > >>> figured
> > > > > > > >>>> worlds have irrealis in view, the business of young people
> > is
> > > > > youth?
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>> Vygotsky points out that the question the interviewer asks
> > is
> > > > very
> > > > > > > much a
> > > > > > > >>>> part of the data. For example, if you ask a question using
> > > "you"
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > >>> often
> > > > > > > >>>> get "you" in reply, even if you design your question to
> get
> > > "I".
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>> Q: Why do you want to kill yourself?
> > > > > > > >>>> A: The same reason everybody wants to kill themselves. You
> > > want
> > > > to
> > > > > > > find
> > > > > > > >>> out
> > > > > > > >>>> if anybody really cares.
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>> To take another example that is probably more relevant to
> > > > readers:
> > > > > > > both
> > > > > > > >>> the
> > > > > > > >>>> Brexit vote and the American elections are clear examples
> of
> > > > > > > statistical
> > > > > > > >>>> unreliability in that if you tried to repeat the election
> > the
> > > > > > morning
> > > > > > > >>> after
> > > > > > > >>>> you would probably get an utterly different result. Take
> all
> > > of
> > > > > > those
> > > > > > > >>> black
> > > > > > > >>>> voters and the real working class voters who voted Obama
> but
> > > > > > couldn't
> > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > >>>> bothered for Hillary (not the imaginary "white working
> class
> > > > > voters"
> > > > > > > who
> > > > > > > >>>> work in imaginary industries in Iowa, rural Pennsylvania,
> > > North
> > > > > > > Carolina
> > > > > > > >>>> and Florida). They might well have behaved rather
> > differently
> > > > > > knowing
> > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > >>>> imminent the neo-Confederacy really was. This is usually
> > > > presented
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > >>>> "buyer's remorse," but it's more than that; the event
> itself
> > > > would
> > > > > > be
> > > > > > > >>> part
> > > > > > > >>>> of its replication. This is something that statistical
> > models
> > > > that
> > > > > > use
> > > > > > > >>>> standard error of the mean cannot build in (they work on
> the
> > > > > > > impossible
> > > > > > > >>>> idea that you can repeat an event ten or twenty thousand
> > times
> > > > > > without
> > > > > > > >>> any
> > > > > > > >>>> memory at all).
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>> In the same way, when you interview a group of students
> > > together
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > >>> notice
> > > > > > > >>>> that they tend to model answers on each other rather than
> on
> > > > your
> > > > > > > >>> question,
> > > > > > > >>>> and when you interview them separately, you notice that
> YOU
> > > tend
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > >>> change
> > > > > > > >>>> your question according to the previous answer you
> received.
> > > On
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > one
> > > > > > > >>>> hand, life is not easily distracted by its own future: it
> is
> > > too
> > > > > > > wholly
> > > > > > > >>>> there in each moment of existence. On the other hand, each
> > of
> > > > > these
> > > > > > > >>> moments
> > > > > > > >>>> includes the previous one, and therefore all the previous
> > > ones,
> > > > in
> > > > > > > >>> itself.
> > > > > > > >>>> The past weighs like a nightmare on the brain of the
> living,
> > > and
> > > > > > > objects
> > > > > > > >>> in
> > > > > > > >>>> the rear view mirror are always closer than they appear.
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>> David Kellogg
> > > > > > > >>>> Macquarie University
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 10:23 AM, HENRY SHONERD <
> > > > > hshonerd@gmail.com
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >>>> wrote:
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>> David,
> > > > > > > >>>>> I was puzzled that you found Langacker to be relevant to
> > this
> > > > > > topic,
> > > > > > > >>> but
> > > > > > > >>>>> the last paragraph of your post makes an important
> > connection
> > > > > > between
> > > > > > > >>>>> Langacker and Vygotsky: Both see speech acts as
> > > > > staged…interactants
> > > > > > > >>> view
> > > > > > > >>>>> themselves as “on stage”. I think the book by Vera and
> > Reuben
> > > > is
> > > > > > > >>> largely
> > > > > > > >>>>> about how differently math is “staged” by working
> > > > mathematicians
> > > > > as
> > > > > > > >>>>> contrasted with doing math in school. I think it would be
> > > > > > interesting
> > > > > > > >>> to
> > > > > > > >>>>> analyze how natural language and the language of math
> > > scaffold
> > > > > each
> > > > > > > >>> other
> > > > > > > >>>>> in both contexts. Word problems have been a well-used way
> > of
> > > > > > > connecting
> > > > > > > >>>> the
> > > > > > > >>>>> two languages; stats and graphs are commonly used in the
> > > media
> > > > to
> > > > > > > >>> clarify
> > > > > > > >>>>> and elaborate text in articles on economics, presidential
> > > > > > elections,
> > > > > > > >>> and
> > > > > > > >>>>> what not.
> > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>> I would love to read your “unpublishable” on Langacker
> and
> > > > > Halliday
> > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > >>>>> tense. What I recall from reading Langacker is his
> interest
> > > in
> > > > > > “basic
> > > > > > > >>>>> domains”, starting with the temporal and spatial.
> Somewhere
> > > he
> > > > > has
> > > > > > > said
> > > > > > > >>>>> that he believes that the temporal domain is the more
> > basic.
> > > As
> > > > > > you’d
> > > > > > > >>>>> guess, the spatial domain is especially useful in
> > elucidating
> > > > > what
> > > > > > he
> > > > > > > >>>> calls
> > > > > > > >>>>> “things” (nouns are conceptually about things); the
> > temporal
> > > > > domain
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > >>>> more
> > > > > > > >>>>> closely connected to what he calls “processes” wherein he
> > > > > analyzes
> > > > > > > >>> tense
> > > > > > > >>>>> and aspect.
> > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>> I think Langacker would agree that his work in cognitive
> > > > grammar
> > > > > > has
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > >>>>> long way to go in contributing to the idea that grammar
> is
> > > > usage
> > > > > > > based,
> > > > > > > >>>>> rather than some autonomous module, but he is working on
> > it.
> > > I
> > > > > > think
> > > > > > > >>>> there
> > > > > > > >>>>> is a potential for connecting Halliday and Langacker,
> > though
> > > > I’m
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > > >>>> smart
> > > > > > > >>>>> enough to convince you of that evidently. Somehow the
> > > > connection
> > > > > > must
> > > > > > > >>> be
> > > > > > > >>>>> made by staying close to the data, “thick description”
> > > > > > ethnographers
> > > > > > > >>> are
> > > > > > > >>>>> fond of saying. I think the article by Carrie and
> Margaret
> > is
> > > > > > raising
> > > > > > > >>>> this
> > > > > > > >>>>> issue.
> > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>> The “hollowed out” math curriculum in the article
> resonates
> > > > with
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > >>>>> “potholes” you say teachers must watch out for. Some may
> > say
> > > > that
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > >>>>> hollowing out is typical even of “elite” K-12 schools.
> Some
> > > may
> > > > > say
> > > > > > > >>> that
> > > > > > > >>>>> this is deliberate. I would say my own experience of math
> > in
> > > > > school
> > > > > > > was
> > > > > > > >>>>> often hollowed out, which I sensed, but didn’t discover
> > > until I
> > > > > got
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > >>>> the
> > > > > > > >>>>> “pure math” department in the mid 60s at Univ of Texas at
> > > > Austin
> > > > > > > under
> > > > > > > >>>> the
> > > > > > > >>>>> leadership of Robert Lee Moore. He is a main protagonist
> in
> > > > > > Chapter 8
> > > > > > > >>> of
> > > > > > > >>>>> Vera’s and Reuben’s book.
> > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>> I’ll end it there.
> > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>> Henry
> > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>> On Nov 15, 2016, at 1:38 PM, David Kellogg <
> > > > > dkellogg60@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > >>>> wrote:
> > > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>> Henry:
> > > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>> I just wrote another unpublishable comparing how
> Langacker
> > > and
> > > > > > > >>>>>> Halliday treat tense, and I'm starting to come to grips
> > with
> > > > the
> > > > > > > >>>>> different
> > > > > > > >>>>>> theory of experience underlying the two grammars.
> > Langacker
> > > > > > somehow
> > > > > > > >>>> sees
> > > > > > > >>>>> it
> > > > > > > >>>>>> as creating empty mental space (and aspect as creating
> > space
> > > > > > within
> > > > > > > >>>>> space).
> > > > > > > >>>>>> Halliday sees tense as a way of abstracting concrete
> > doings
> > > > and
> > > > > > > >>>>> happenings.
> > > > > > > >>>>>> Halliday's tense system is not spatial at all but
> > temporal:
> > > > it's
> > > > > > > >>>>> temporally
> > > > > > > >>>>>> deictic and then temporally recursive: a kind of time
> > > machine
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > >>>>>> simultaneously transports and orients the speaker either
> > > > > > > >>> proleptically
> > > > > > > >>>> or
> > > > > > > >>>>>> retroleptically. So for example if I say to you that
> this
> > > > > article
> > > > > > we
> > > > > > > >>>> are
> > > > > > > >>>>>> discussing is going to have been being discussed for two
> > or
> > > > > three
> > > > > > > >>> weeks
> > > > > > > >>>>>> now, then "is going" is a kind of time machine that
> takes
> > > you
> > > > > into
> > > > > > > >>> the
> > > > > > > >>>>>> future, from which "You are Here" vantage point the
> > article
> > > > has
> > > > > > been
> > > > > > > >>>>> (past)
> > > > > > > >>>>>> being discussed (present). Present in the past in the
> > > future.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>> And that got me thinking about theory and practice. It
> > seems
> > > > to
> > > > > me
> > > > > > > >>> that
> > > > > > > >>>>> the
> > > > > > > >>>>>> they are related, but simultaneously and not
> sequentially.
> > > > That
> > > > > > is,
> > > > > > > >>> the
> > > > > > > >>>>>> output of one is not the input of the other: they are
> > simply
> > > > > more
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > >>>>> less
> > > > > > > >>>>>> abstract ways of looking at one and the same thing. So
> for
> > > > > example
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > >>>>> this
> > > > > > > >>>>>> article the tasks of theory and practice are one and the
> > > same:
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > >>> task
> > > > > > > >>>>> of
> > > > > > > >>>>>> theory is really to define as precisely as possible the
> > > > domain,
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > >>>>> scope,
> > > > > > > >>>>>> the range of the inquiry into authoring math and science
> > > > > > identities
> > > > > > > >>> and
> > > > > > > >>>>> the
> > > > > > > >>>>>> task of practice is to ask what exactly you want to do
> in
> > > this
> > > > > > > >>>>>> domain/scope/range--to try to understand how they are
> > > hollowed
> > > > > > out a
> > > > > > > >>>>> little
> > > > > > > >>>>>> better so that maybe teachers like you and me can help
> > fill
> > > > the
> > > > > > damn
> > > > > > > >>>>>> potholes in a little. You can't really do the one
> without
> > > > doing
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > >>>>> other:
> > > > > > > >>>>>> trying to decide the terrain under study without
> deciding
> > > some
> > > > > > task
> > > > > > > >>>> that
> > > > > > > >>>>>> you want to do there is like imagining tense as empty
> > mental
> > > > > space
> > > > > > > >>> and
> > > > > > > >>>>> not
> > > > > > > >>>>>> as some actual, concrete doing or happening. Conversely,
> > the
> > > > way
> > > > > > you
> > > > > > > >>>> dig
> > > > > > > >>>>>> the hole depends very much on how big and where you want
> > it.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>> So there are three kinds of mental spaces in the first
> > part
> > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > >>>>> article:
> > > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>> a) institutional arrangements (e.g. "priority
> improvement
> > > > > plans",
> > > > > > > >>>>>> career-academy/comprehensive school status STEM tracks,
> AP
> > > > > > classes)
> > > > > > > >>>>>> b) figured worlds (e.g. 'good students', and 'don't
> > cares',
> > > or
> > > > > > what
> > > > > > > >>>>> Eckhart
> > > > > > > >>>>>> and McConnell-Ginet called 'jocks', 'nerds',
> 'burnouts',
> > > > > > > >>>> 'gangbangers')
> > > > > > > >>>>>> c) authored identities (i.e. what kids say about
> > themselves
> > > > and
> > > > > > what
> > > > > > > >>>> they
> > > > > > > >>>>>> think about themselves)
> > > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>> Now, I think it's possible to make this distinction--but
> > > they
> > > > > are
> > > > > > > >>>>> probably
> > > > > > > >>>>>> better understood not as mental spaces (in which case
> they
> > > > > really
> > > > > > do
> > > > > > > >>>>>> overlap) but rather as doings (or, as is my wont,
> > sayings).
> > > > > > > Different
> > > > > > > >>>>>> people are saying different things: a) is mostly the
> > sayings
> > > > of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > >>>>> school
> > > > > > > >>>>>> boards and administrators, b) is mostly the sayings of
> > > > teachers
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > >>>>> groups
> > > > > > > >>>>>> of kids, and c) is mostly the sayings of individual
> > > students.
> > > > > It's
> > > > > > > >>>> always
> > > > > > > >>>>>> tempting for a theory to focus on c), because that's
> where
> > > all
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > >>> data
> > > > > > > >>>>> is
> > > > > > > >>>>>> and it's tempting for practice too, because if you are
> > > against
> > > > > > what
> > > > > > > >>> is
> > > > > > > >>>>>> happening in a) and in b), that's where the most likely
> > > point
> > > > of
> > > > > > > >>>>>> intervention is.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>> "But the data does suggest that the "figured worlds" are
> > > > figured
> > > > > > by
> > > > > > > >>>>>> authored identities--not by institutional arrangements.
> Is
> > > > that
> > > > > > just
> > > > > > > >>> an
> > > > > > > >>>>>> artefact of the warm empathy of the authors for the
> words
> > > > > > (although
> > > > > > > >>>> maybe
> > > > > > > >>>>>> not the exact wordings) of their subjects, or is it real
> > > > grounds
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > >>>>> hope?
> > > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>> Marx says (beginning of the 18th Brumaire): "*Men make*
> > > their
> > > > > own
> > > > > > > >>>>> *history*,
> > > > > > > >>>>>> *but they* do *not make* it as *they* please; *they* do
> > *not
> > > > > make*
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > >>>>>> under self-selected circumstances, *but* under
> > circumstances
> > > > > > > existing
> > > > > > > >>>>>> already, given and transmitted from the *past*. The
> > > tradition
> > > > of
> > > > > > all
> > > > > > > >>>> dead
> > > > > > > >>>>>> generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the
> > > > > living."
> > > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>> It's a good theory, i.e. at once a truth and a tragedy.
> > And
> > > > > it's a
> > > > > > > >>>>>> theory treats time as time and not as an empty stage.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>> David Kellogg
> > > > > > > >>>>>> Macquarie University
> > > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 9:39 AM, HENRY SHONERD <
> > > > > > hshonerd@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > >>>>> wrote:
> > > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> All,
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> I have read only part of Margaret’s and Carrie’s
> article,
> > > > but I
> > > > > > > >>> wanted
> > > > > > > >>>>> to
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> jump in with a reference to a book by Vygotskian Vera
> > > > > > John-Steiner
> > > > > > > >>> and
> > > > > > > >>>>> her
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> mathematician husband Reuben Hersh: Loving and Hating
> > > > > > Mathematics:
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> Challenging the Mathematical Life. Huw’s point (v)
> which
> > > > refers
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> “identities of independence and finding out sustainable
> > > > within
> > > > > > > these
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> settings (school math classes) spent high school.
> Vera’s
> > > and
> > > > > > > >>> Reuben’s
> > > > > > > >>>>> book
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> contrasts what it’s like to work and think like a real
> > > > > (working)
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> mathematician (what I think Huw is talking about) and
> > what
> > > we
> > > > > > call
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> mathematics in the classroom. Chapter 8 of the book
> "The
> > > > > Teaching
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> Mathematics: Fierce or Friendly?” is interesting
> reading
> > > and
> > > > > > could
> > > > > > > >>> be
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> relevant to this discussion.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> Henry
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> On Nov 13, 2016, at 2:47 PM, Huw Lloyd <
> > > > > > huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > >>>>> wrote:
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Dear Margaret
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> My reading has not been a particularly careful one,
> so I
> > > > leave
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > >>> to
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> yourselves to judge the usefulness of these points.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> i) Whether arguments can be made (for or against) a
> > > nebulous
> > > > > > term
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> (neoliberalism) with its political associations, by
> > > > arguments
> > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> identity that are themselves not deliberately
> political.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> ii) Whether it is better not to focus essentially on
> the
> > > > place
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> identity.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> iii) Whether it is worthwhile contrasting the
> > > role/identity
> > > > of
> > > > > > > >>> "model
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> student" with "identities" that anyone excelling at
> STEM
> > > > > > subjects
> > > > > > > >>>> would
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> relate to.  On this, I would point to the importance
> > with
> > > > > > > >>> identifying
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> with
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> appreciations for "awareness of not knowing" and
> > > "eagerness
> > > > to
> > > > > > > find
> > > > > > > >>>>> out"
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> (which also entails learning about what it means to
> > know).
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> iv) Whether you detect that to the degree that an
> > identity
> > > > is
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> foregrounded
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> in the actual practice of STEM work (rather than as
> > > > background
> > > > > > > >>> social
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> appeasement), it is being faked? That is, someone is
> > > playing
> > > > > at
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > >>>>> role
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> rather than actually committing themselves to finding
> > out
> > > > > about
> > > > > > > >>>>> unknowns.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> v) Whether, in fact, there is actually a "tiered" or
> > > varied
> > > > > set
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> acceptable "identities" within the settings you
> > explored,
> > > > such
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> identities of independence and finding out are
> > sustainable
> > > > > > within
> > > > > > > >>>> these
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> settings, possibly representing a necessary fudge to
> > deal
> > > > with
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> requirements placed upon the institutions.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Best,
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Huw
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> On 12 November 2016 at 20:30, Margaret A Eisenhart <
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> margaret.eisenhart@colorado.edu> wrote:
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Hello Everyone,
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Carrie and I are newcomers to this list, and we thank
> > you
> > > > for
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> opportunity to engage with you about our article,
> > > “Hollowed
> > > > > > Out.”
> > > > > > > >>>> We
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> also
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> hope for your patience as we learn to participate in
> > the
> > > > > stream
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> thinking here!
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Given the comments so far, we are intrigued by
> others’
> > > > ideas
> > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > >>>> the
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> link between our theory and our data.  On this topic,
> > we
> > > > > would
> > > > > > > >>> like
> > > > > > > >>>> to
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> make clear that we did not intend to suggest that the
> > > > > students
> > > > > > > >>> were
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> making
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> sense of their lives in the same way that we
> > interpreted
> > > > them
> > > > > > > >>>> through
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> the
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> lens of our theory. Our claim is that opportunities
> and
> > > > > figured
> > > > > > > >>>> worlds
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> are
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> resources for identity and that the students' words
> to
> > us
> > > > > > > >>> reflected
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> perspectives consistent with neoliberalism, with some
> > > > pretty
> > > > > > > >>> serious
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> implications. Like Phillip White, we are interested
> in
> > > what
> > > > > > > >>> theories
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> others would use to explain the data we presented.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Like Mike Cole, we are also intrigued by the prospect
> > of
> > > > > > > >>> “exemplars”
> > > > > > > >>>>> we
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> might turn to.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> We look forward to hearing your thoughts.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Margaret Eisenhart
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> On 11/11/16, 11:35 AM, "lpscholar2@gmail.com" <
> > > > > > > >>> lpscholar2@gmail.com
> > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> A resumption in exploring the meaning and sense
> > > > (preferably
> > > > > > sens
> > > > > > > >>> as
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> this
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> term draws attention to movement and direction
> within
> > > > > meaning
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> sense)
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> of this month’s article.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> The paper begins with the title and the image of
> > > > > > (hollowed-out)
> > > > > > > >>>>> meaning
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> and sense that is impoverished and holds few
> resources
> > > for
> > > > > > > >>>>> developing a
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> deeper sens of identity.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> The article concludes with the implication that the
> > work
> > > > of
> > > > > > > >>> social
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> justice within educational institutions is not about
> > > > > improving
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> educational outcome in neoliberal terms; the
> > > implications
> > > > of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > >>>>> study
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> are about *reorganizing* the identities –
> particulary
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> identities-with-standind that young people are
> > *exposed*
> > > > to,
> > > > > > can
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> articulate, and can act on (in school and beyond).
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> I would say this is taking an ethical stand?.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> I will now turn to page 189 and the section
> > > > > > > (identity-in-context)
> > > > > > > >>>> to
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> amplify the notion of (cultural imaginary) and
> > (figured
> > > > > > worlds).
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> This imaginary being the site or location of
> > > > > > history-in-person.
> > > > > > > >>>> That
> > > > > > > >>>>> is
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> identity is a form of legacy (or *text*) ABOUT the
> > kind
> > > of
> > > > > > > person
> > > > > > > >>>> one
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> is
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> or has become in responding to (external)
> > circumstances.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> These external circumstances are EXPERIENCED
> primarily
> > > in
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> organization of local practices and cultural
> > imaginaries
> > > > > > > (figured
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> worlds)
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> that circulate and *give meaning* (and sens) to
> local
> > > > > > practices
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Figured worlds are interpreted following Holland as
> > > > socially
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> culturally *realms of interpretation* and certain
> > > players
> > > > > are
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> recognized
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> as (exemplars).
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> As such cultural, social, historical, dialogical
> > > > > psychological
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> (imaginaries) are handmaidens of the imaginal
> *giving
> > > > > meaning*
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> *what*
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> goes on in the directions we take together.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Two key terms i highlight are (exemplars) and
> > > (direction)
> > > > we
> > > > > > > >>> take.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> The realm of the ethical turn
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> What are the markers and signposts emerging in the
> > > deeper
> > > > > > > ethical
> > > > > > > >>>>> turn
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> that offers more than a hollowed-out answer.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Are there any *ghost* stories of exemplars we can
> turn
> > > to
> > > > as
> > > > > > > well
> > > > > > > >>>> as
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> living exemplars? By ghosts i mean ancestors who
> > > continue
> > > > as
> > > > > > > >>>> beacons
> > > > > > > >>>>> of
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> hope exemplifying *who* we are.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> My way into exploring the impoverished narratives of
> > the
> > > > > > > >>> neoliberal
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> imaginary and reawakening exemplary ancestors or
> > ghosts
> > > > from
> > > > > > > >>> their
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> slumber to help guide us through these multiple
> > > > imaginaries
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> From: mike cole
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Sent: November 9, 2016 3:04 PM
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for
> > discussion
> > > > > > > >>> Re-started
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Alfredo--
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> for any who missed the initial article sent out, you
> > > might
> > > > > > send
> > > > > > > >>>> them
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> here:
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> I am meeting shortly with Bruce. A list of
> > improvements
> > > to
> > > > > web
> > > > > > > >>> site
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> welcome, although not clear how long they will take
> to
> > > > > > > implement.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> mike
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil <
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Dear all,
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> last week I announced MCA's 3rd Issue article for
> > > > > discussion:
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> "Hollowed Out: Meaning and Authoring of High School
> > > Math
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > >>>> Science
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Identities in the Context of Neoliberal Reform," by
> > > > > Margaret
> > > > > > > >>>>> Eisenhart
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> and
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> The article is open access and will continue to be
> so
> > > > > during
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> discussion time at this link.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks to everyone who begun the discussion early
> > > after I
> > > > > > > shared
> > > > > > > >>>> the
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> link
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> last week, and sorry that we sort of brought the
> > > > discussion
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > >>>>> halt
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> until
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> the authors were ready to discuss. I have now sent
> > > > Margaret
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > >>>>> Carrie
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> the
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> posts that were produced then so that they could
> > catch
> > > > up,
> > > > > > but
> > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > >>>>> also
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> invited them to feel free to move on an introduce
> > > > > themselves
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > >>>> soon
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> as
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> they ??wanted.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> It is not without some doubts that one introduces a
> > > > > > discussion
> > > > > > > >>> of
> > > > > > > >>>> an
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> article in a moment that some US media have called
> as
> > > "An
> > > > > > > >>> American
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Tragedy"
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> and other international editorials are describing
> as
> > "a
> > > > > dark
> > > > > > > day
> > > > > > > >>>> for
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> the
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> world." But I believe that the paper may indeed
> offer
> > > > some
> > > > > > > >>> grounds
> > > > > > > >>>>> for
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> discuss important issues that are at stake in
> > > everyone's
> > > > > home
> > > > > > > >>> now,
> > > > > > > >>>>> as
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Mike
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> recently describes in a touching post on the "local
> > > state
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > >>> mind"
> > > > > > > >>>>> and
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> that
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> have to do with identity and its connection to a
> > > > neoliberal
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> organisation of
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> the economy. It is not difficult to link
> > neoliberalism
> > > to
> > > > > > > >>> Trump's
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> phenomenon and how it pervades very intimate
> aspects
> > of
> > > > > > > everyday
> > > > > > > >>>>> life.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> If this was not enough, I think the authors'
> > background
> > > > on
> > > > > > > >>> women's
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> scholar
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> and professional careers in science is totally
> > relevant
> > > > to
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> discussions
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> on gendered discourse we've been having. Now
> without
> > > > > halts, I
> > > > > > > >>> hope
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> this
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> thread gives joys and wisdom to all.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > >>>> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> edu>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil <
> a.j.gil@iped.uio.no
> > >
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:48
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for
> > > discussion
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks Mike and everyone! I am sure Margaret (and
> > many
> > > of
> > > > > > those
> > > > > > > >>>>> still
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> reading) will be happy to be able to catch up when
> > she
> > > > > joins
> > > > > > us
> > > > > > > >>>> next
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> week!
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > >>>> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> edu>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:32
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for
> > > discussion
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Gentlemen -- I believe Fernando told us that
> Margaret
> > > > would
> > > > > > be
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> able to join this discussion next week. Just a
> quick
> > > > glance
> > > > > > at
> > > > > > > >>> the
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> discussion so far indicates that there is a lot
> there
> > > to
> > > > > wade
> > > > > > > >>> into
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> before she has had a word.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> I am only part way through the article, expecting
> to
> > > have
> > > > > > until
> > > > > > > >>>> next
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> week
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> to think about it.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> May I suggest your forbearance while this slow-poke
> > > tries
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > >>> catch
> > > > > > > >>>>> up!
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> mike
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 3:38 PM, White, Phillip
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> <Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> David & Larry, everyone else ...
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> by way of introduction, Margaret and Carrie point
> > out
> > > > that
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > >>>> data
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> in
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> this paper emerged through a three year study -
> > which
> > > > was
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> processes
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> of
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> how students of color, interested in STEM,
> responded
> > > to
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> externally
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> imposed neoliberal requirements. they framed their
> > > study
> > > > > > using
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> theories
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> of
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> social practices on how identity developed in
> > context.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> David, you reject the theories.  or so i
> understand
> > > your
> > > > > > > >>>> position.
> > > > > > > >>>>> as
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> you
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> write: It's that the theory
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> are you also rejecting the data as well?  it seems
> > as
> > > if
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > >>> are
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> suggesting this when you write: The authors find
> > this
> > > > > point
> > > > > > > (in
> > > > > > > >>>> the
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> case
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> of
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Lorena) somewhere between the
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh
> > > > grade,
> > > > > > but
> > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > >>>>> think
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> you reject the narrative of Lorena on the grounds
> > that
> > > > it
> > > > > > > could
> > > > > > > >>>> be
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> traced
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> back to infancy.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> do you also reject the identical narrative found
> in
> > > the
> > > > > > adult
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> practitioners within the context of the high
> > schools?
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > >>> this
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> narrative
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> is not one of a contemporary neoliberal practice
> but
> > > > > rather
> > > > > > > >>> could
> > > > > > > >>>>> be
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> traced
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> back to, say, the mid 1600's new england colonies,
> > in
> > > > > > > >>> particular
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> massachusettes, where the practices of public
> > american
> > > > > > > >>> education
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> began?
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> to explain the data that emerged from the
> > > > Eisenhart/Allen
> > > > > > > >>> study,
> > > > > > > >>>>> what
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> theories would you have used?
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> phillip
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com <
> > > lpscholar2@gmail.com
> > > > >
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2016 7:03 AM
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> To: David Kellogg; eXtended Mind, Culture,
> Activity
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for
> > > discussion
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret and Carrie,
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for this wonderful paper that explains
> the
> > > > > shallow
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> *hollowed-out* way of forming identity as a form
> of
> > > > > meaning
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> sense. I
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> will add the French word *sens* which always
> > includes
> > > > > > > >>> *direction*
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> within
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> meaning and sense.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> David, your response that what our theory makes
> sens
> > > of
> > > > > > > depends
> > > > > > > >>>> on
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> where
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> we are looking makes sens to me.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> You put in question the moment when the
> > interpersonal
> > > > (you
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > >>>> me)
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> way of
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> authoring sens *shifts* or turns to cultural and
> > > > > historical
> > > > > > > >>> ways
> > > > > > > >>>> of
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> being
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> immersed in sens. The article refers to the
> > > > > > > >>>> *historical-in-person*.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> My further comment, where I am looking) is in the
> > > > > > description
> > > > > > > >>> of
> > > > > > > >>>>> the
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> sociocultural as a response to *externally
> changing
> > > > > > > >>>> circumstances*
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> as
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> the
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> process of *learning as becoming* (see page 190).
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> The article says:
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> This process is what Lave and Wenger (1991) and
> > other
> > > > > > > >>>> Sociocultural
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> researchers have referred to as *learning as
> > > becoming,*
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > >>> is,
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> learning
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> that occurs as one becomes a certain kind of
> person
> > > in a
> > > > > > > >>>> particular
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> context.  Identities conceived in this way are not
> > > > stable
> > > > > or
> > > > > > > >>>> fixed.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> As
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> *external circumstances* affecting a person
> change,
> > so
> > > > too
> > > > > > may
> > > > > > > >>>> the
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> identities that are produced *in response*.
> > (Holland &
> > > > > > > Skinner,
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> 1997).
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> In this version of *history-in-person* the
> identity
> > > > > > processes
> > > > > > > >>>> that
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> start
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> the process moving in a neoliberal *direction* are
> > > > > > *external*
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances. I am not questioning this version
> of
> > > the
> > > > > > > >>>> importance
> > > > > > > >>>>> of
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> the
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> external but do question if looking primarily or
> > > > > > primordially
> > > > > > > >>> to
> > > > > > > >>>>> the
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> external circumstances as central if we are not
> > > leaving
> > > > a
> > > > > > gap
> > > > > > > >>> in
> > > > > > > >>>>> our
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> notions of *sens*.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> If by looking or highlighting or illuminating the
> > > > > *external*
> > > > > > > >>> and
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> highly
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> visible acts of the actual we are leaving a gap in
> > > > > > actual*ity.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> A gap in *sens*.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> To be continued by others...
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> From: David Kellogg
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: October 31, 2016 2:15 PM
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for
> > > discussion
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> I was turning Mike's request--for a short
> > explanation
> > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Halliday/Vygotsky interface--over in my mind for a
> > few
> > > > > days,
> > > > > > > >>>> unsure
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> where
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> to start. I usually decide these difficult "where
> to
> > > > > start"
> > > > > > > >>>>> questions
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> in
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> the easiest possible way, with whatever I happen
> to
> > be
> > > > > > working
> > > > > > > >>>> on.
> > > > > > > >>>>> In
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> this
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> case it's the origins of language in a one year
> > old, a
> > > > > > moment
> > > > > > > >>>> which
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> is
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> almost as mysterious to me as the origins of life
> or
> > > the
> > > > > Big
> > > > > > > >>>> Bang.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> But
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps for that very reason it's not a good place
> > to
> > > > > start
> > > > > > > >>> (the
> > > > > > > >>>>> Big
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Bang
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> always seemed to me to jump the gun a bit, not to
> > > > mention
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > >>>>> origins
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> of
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> life).
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Let me start with the "Hollowed Out" paper Alfredo
> > > just
> > > > > > > >>>>> thoughtfully
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> sent
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> around instead. My first impression is that this
> > paper
> > > > > > leaves
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> really
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> big
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> gap between the data and the conclusions, and that
> > > this
> > > > > gap
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> largely
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> filled by theory. Here are some examples of what I
> > > mean:
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> a)    "Whereas 'subject position' is given by
> > society,
> > > > > > > >>> 'identity'
> > > > > > > >>>>> is
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> self-authored, although it must be recognized by
> > > others
> > > > to
> > > > > > be
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> sustained."
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> (p. 189)
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> b)  "It is notable that this construction of a
> good
> > > > > student,
> > > > > > > >>>> though
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> familiar, does not make any reference to personal
> > > > > interest,
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> excitement,
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> or
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> engagement in the topics or content-related
> > > activities."
> > > > > > (193)
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> c)  "When students' statements such as 'I get it',
> > > 'I'm
> > > > > > > >>>> confident',
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> 'I'm
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> good at this', and  'I can pull this off' are
> > > > interpreted
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > >>> the
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> context
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> of
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> the figured world of math or science at the two
> > > schools,
> > > > > > their
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> statements
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> index more than a grade. They reference a meaning
> > > system
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > >>>> being
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> good
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> in
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> math or science that includes the actor identity
> > > > > > > >>> characteristics
> > > > > > > >>>> of
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> being
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> able to grasp the subject matter easily, do the
> work
> > > > > > quickly,
> > > > > > > >>> do
> > > > > > > >>>> it
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> without
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> help from others, do it faster than others, and
> get
> > an
> > > > A."
> > > > > > > >>> (193)
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> In each case, we are told to believe in a theory:
> > > "given
> > > > > by
> > > > > > > >>>>> society",
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> "self-authored", "does not make any reference",
> "the
> > > > > context
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > >>>> the
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> figured
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> world". It's not just that in each case the theory
> > > seems
> > > > > to
> > > > > > go
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> against
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> the
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> data (although it certainly does in places, such
> as
> > > > > Lowena's
> > > > > > > >>>> views
> > > > > > > >>>>> as
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> a
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> tenth grader). I can always live with a theory
> that
> > > > > > > contradicts
> > > > > > > >>>> my
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> data:
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> that's what being a rationalist is all about. It's
> > > that
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > >>>> theory
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> I don't believe that identity is self authored,
> and
> > I
> > > > also
> > > > > > > >>> don't
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> believe
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> that subject position is given by society as a
> > whole,
> > > I
> > > > > > think
> > > > > > > >>> the
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> word
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> "good" does include personal interest, excitement,
> > and
> > > > > > > >>> engagement
> > > > > > > >>>>> as
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> much
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> as it includes being able to grasp the subject
> > matter
> > > > > > easily,
> > > > > > > >>> do
> > > > > > > >>>>> the
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> work
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> quickly, do it without help from others, do it
> > faster
> > > > than
> > > > > > > >>> others
> > > > > > > >>>>> and
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> get
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> an A. To me anyway, the key word in the data given
> > in
> > > c)
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > >>>>> actually
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> "I"
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> and not "it" or "this": the students think they
> are
> > > > > talking
> > > > > > > >>>> about,
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> and
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> therefore probably are actually talking about, a
> > > > relation
> > > > > > > >>> between
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> their
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> inner states and the activity at hand  or between
> > the
> > > > > > activity
> > > > > > > >>> at
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> hand
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> and
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> the result they get; they are not invoking the
> > figured
> > > > > world
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> neoliberal
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> results and prospects.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> But never mind my own theories. Any gap is, after
> > > all, a
> > > > > > good
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> opportunity
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> for theory building. The authors are raising a key
> > > issue
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > >>> both
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Vygotsky
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> and Halliday: when does an interpersonal relation
> > > > become a
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural one? That is, when does that
> 'me"
> > > and
> > > > > > "you"
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> relationship
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> in which I really do have the power to author my
> > > > identity
> > > > > (I
> > > > > > > >>> can
> > > > > > > >>>>> make
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> up
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> any name I want and, within limits, invent my own
> > > > history,
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> particularly
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> if
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> I am a backpacker) give way to a job, an address,
> a
> > > > number
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > >>> a
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> class
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> over
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> which I have very little power at all? When does
> the
> > > > > > > >>>> interpersonal
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> somehow
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> become an alien ideational "identity" that
> confronts
> > > me
> > > > > > like a
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> strange
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> ghost when I look in the mirror?
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> The authors find this point (in the case of
> Lorena)
> > > > > > somewhere
> > > > > > > >>>>> between
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> the
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh
> > > > grade,
> > > > > > but
> > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > >>>>> think
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking.
> We
> > > can
> > > > > > > >>> probably
> > > > > > > >>>>> find
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> the
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> roots of this distinction (between the
> interpersonal
> > > and
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural) as far back as we like, right
> > back
> > > > to
> > > > > > > >>>>> (Vygotsky)
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> the
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> moment when the child gives up the "self-authored"
> > > > > language
> > > > > > at
> > > > > > > >>>> one
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> and
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> takes on the language recognized by others and
> > > > (Halliday)
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > >>>>> moment
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> when
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> the child distinguishes between Attributive
> > > identifying
> > > > > > > clauses
> > > > > > > >>>>> ("I'm
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> confident", "I'm good at this"), material
> processes
> > > ("I
> > > > > can
> > > > > > > >>> pull
> > > > > > > >>>>> this
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> off")
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> and mental ones ("I get it").
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> (To be continued...but not necessarily by me!)
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> David Kellogg
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Macquarie University
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Alfredo Jornet
> Gil
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear xmca'ers,
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> I am excited to announce the next article for
> > > > discussion,
> > > > > > > >>> which
> > > > > > > >>>> is
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> now
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> available open access at the T&F MCA pages<
> > > > > > > >>>> http://www.tandfonline
> > > > > > > >>>>> .
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2016.1188962>.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> After a really interesting discussion on Zaza's
> > > > colourful
> > > > > > > >>> paper
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> (which
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> still goes on developed into a discussion on
> micro-
> > > and
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> ontogenesis),
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> we
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> will from next week be looking at an article by
> > > > Margaret
> > > > > > > >>>> Eisenhart
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> and
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen from the special issue on
> "Reimagining
> > > > > Science
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Education
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> in
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the Neoliberal Global Context". I think the
> > article,
> > > as
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > >>>> whole
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> issue,
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> offers a very neat example of research trying to
> > tie
> > > > > > together
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> cultural/economical? and developmental aspects
> (of
> > > > > identity
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > >>>>> this
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> case).
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret has kindly accepted to join the
> discussion
> > > > > ?after
> > > > > > US
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> elections
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> (which will surely keep the attention of many of
> us
> > > > > busy).
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Meanwhile, I
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> share the link<http://www.tandfonline.
> > > > > > > >>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> .
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> 2016.1188962>  to the article (see above), and
> also
> > > > > attach
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > >>> as
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> PDF.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> ??Good read!
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>