[Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started

[Huw Lloyd]

Hi David,

Davydov's approach can be applied to any content.  The focus is upon
establishing a unitary conception of relations rather than attributes.

Best,
Huw

On 27 November 2016 at 21:16, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com> wrote:

> Here in Australia they are introducing "coding across the curriculum". It
> is modelled on "language across the curriculum", which was a movement in
> England in the seventies where the language of instruction in maths,
> sciences, arts, etc. was considered as the object of curricular planning.
> So for example when we teach base non-decimal ways of counting, we teach
> them in the context of using everyday language (e.g. word problems with
> hours and minutes or months and weeks, which require some counting in
> non-decimal systems). So too with "coding across the curriculum". Kids are
> mostly taught using a programming language called "Stitch" developed by
> MIT, which uses non-numerical symbols for programming, and which can be
> used to do very different things in the classroom, irrespective of the
> discipline. You can use Stitch to create geometrical patterns, to
> taxonomize animals and plants, to make digital paintings, to write
> music, and so on. Cool stuff; kids love it.
>
> But once again you can see the emphasis is on integration of disciplinary
> knowledge "where the rubber meets the road"--that is, as everyday concepts.
> In a weird way, the result is something like the labor schools of the 1920s
> which Vygotsky and Blonsky and pedology generally participated in building.
> That is, you learn about higher concepts like circumference and radius in
> the context of learning to drill or operate a lathe. This seems to me a
> very different kind of integration from teaching with concepts in the
> 1930s, which is (I think) the basis of the Davydov "germ cell" approach
> (and which was certainly the basis of Vygotsky's ZPD measured in years). I
> think that Davydov would probably look at the Australian curriculum and
> say--you would like to teach coding across the curriculum? An excellent
> idea. Let us begin with binary number systems. Instead of starting at the
> interface, where the integration and unity of coding is really somewhat
> artificial and contrived and a product of market generalization, you
> instead start at the most abstract end, where it is genuine and real.
>
> David Kellogg
> Macquarie University
>
> On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 6:47 AM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>
> > The subsequent trail of message showed that it is rarely too late to pick
> > up a thread of the conversation and have sometime interesting and
> > informative come of it, Huw.
> >
> > In reading through the string of messages on this topic including the
> > earlier part of thread, I come away reinforced by the idea that the
> > problems associated with current STEM-accountability regimes are a
> > continuation and intensification of trends in education with a very long
> > history.
> >
> > As Phillip got us to note, JS Mill made similar points regarding
> education
> > (in his case of the British elites/men, but some key ideas seem
> > generalizable). Still, something about the past couple of decades,
> perhaps
> > associated with the intensification and globalization of capitalist modes
> > of production, seems qualitatively more draconian. And all indications
> are
> > that matters are in the process of worsening, not improving.
> >
> > I was hoping that participants could come up with counter-examples:
> schools
> > where routinely the teaching of STEM subjects was integrated into a
> general
> > curriculum and where successful, more inclusive participation in STEM
> > subjects could result.
> > In this I was disappointed.
> >
> > Ed provided Summerhill and a variety of small, elite, school situations.
> We
> > did not hear from anyone associated with the dialogical education
> advocates
> > who once participated in such discussions. I think I offered up the
> school
> > that is the subject of a book by Barbara Rogoff and colleagues (From
> > Wikipedia - *Learning Together: Children and Adults in a School Community
> > [Oxford press, 2002]*, co-authored with teachers Carolyn Turkanis and
> > Leslee Bartlett, profiled Salt Lake City's "Open Classroom," a
> > parent-cooperative education program that is now a K-8 charter school.
> >
> > Over the US Thanksgiving holiday, reading your various thoughts and
> > chatting with my grandchildren, I came across a case which seemed to fit
> > Margaret and Carrie's
> > notions of expanded goals for stem education, and education in general.
> My
> > two grandchildren are going/went to a very elite school, the Lab School
> at
> > the U of C Chicago. At dinner they started to talk about school and
> > favorite teachers. Both identified one teacher who they thought was
> > exceptional and for the same reason.
> > "He respects kids. He always listens to them and takes them seriously."
> >
> > I am sure there are other fine teachers at the school, which is a
> pressure
> > cooker of academic achievement and the attainment of yet more privilege.
> > But institutionalized universal education, as Mills laments in his
> elitest
> > and individualistic way (he is focused on Oxbridge), does not appear
> > organized to make such teachers and such classrooms ubiquitous. Its
> > pragmatic social reproduction functions focused on economics and state
> > power, associated with its sorting function, appear to mitigate strong
> > against any significant re-mediation. So my example serves mostly as an
> > exception that proves the rule, perhaps.
> >
> > I keep thinking about Lorena, who as Margaret and Carrie show us,  came*
> to
> > believe that she had become a bad person—disobedient and disrespectful—in
> > the eyes of her teacher. *
> >
> > Very painful stuff. STEM reform as an iatrogenic disease.
> >
> > Question for those who know: How are reforms based on the sorts of
> > principles espoused by Davydov, Elkonin, and other cultural-historical
> > pedagogs doing in Russia these days? My impression is that they struggle
> > for recognition and acceptance. But I could easily be wrong.
> >
> > mike
> >
> > PS- Huw-- I have not read Clive's *Civilization *and  it does not appear
> > rapidly obtainable so could not appreciate your reference to Mill and
> > Clive. Results of an American public school education.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 24, 2016 at 6:01 PM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > The marketable "skill" is "good behaviour in conjunction with some
> > > operational knowledge". Even in technology-oriented companies,
> creativity
> > > and new knowledge are often unwelcome intruders into a social-political
> > > situation (see for example Allen's 1977 text, Managing the Flow of
> > > Technology). There are many vested interests into the status-quo.
> > > Creativity in whatever sport, is usually against the grain. And then,
> of
> > > course, we have all these qualifications which repel creativity through
> > > strict enforcement of stupid behaviour.
> > >
> > > Not sure whether I'm waking up a closing thread here, so my thanks to
> > > Margaret for discussing the paper.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Huw
> > >
> > > On 20 November 2016 at 03:34, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Sorry, I've lost the plot. That is, I don't see the connection
> between
> > > the
> > > > kind of educational neoliberalism that is being discussed in the
> > article
> > > > (that which is based on measurable results, on academic tracking, on
> > > > promising goodies in return for grades and grades in return for
> > > schoolwork)
> > > > and the kind of political and economic neoliberalism that is being
> > > > discussed by Cornel. It seems to me that the policies that Margaret
> and
> > > > Carrie are discussing in this paper were not (politically) liberal,
> nor
> > > > were they new: they were taken over by Arne Duncan from the Bush
> > > > administration, and the Bush administration got them, via Clinton,
> from
> > > > good old fashioned "Back to Basics" backlash in the UK. So the roots
> > are
> > > > Toryism and not liberalism.
> > > >
> > > > I suppose you can argue that there is some kind of implicit analogy
> > > between
> > > > education and neoliberal economics: school is supposed to be some
> kind
> > of
> > > > neoliberal "level playing field" where children compete like
> > businessmen,
> > > > grades are "cultural capital", classes are investment opportunities,
> > > > assessment portfolios are investment portfolios, etc. This analogy is
> > > > little more than a way of whipping up interest among principals,
> > > teachers,
> > > > and even students (and as such I am not sure I am against it, since I
> > > don't
> > > > see anything wrong with working class kids taking an interest in the
> > > > getting of goodies through study). It's certainly not a good
> > description
> > > of
> > > > what is happening in schools: These businessmen produce no
> commodities,
> > > the
> > > > grades are neither exchangeable or consumable; there is no such thing
> > as
> > > > credit or interest in this economy, and assets evaporate upon
> > graduation
> > > > instead of maturing.
> > > >
> > > > I think that the word "reform" is actually more important in Margaret
> > and
> > > > Carrie's title than "neoliberal": a "reform" is usually, on the lips
> of
> > > > government bureaucracy, a euphemism for backlash, and the policies
> > being
> > > > described are part of a more general ideological backlash against
> > > Deweyism
> > > > and progressive education: an anti-liberal reaction rather than a
> > > > neo-liberal reform. "Neoliberalism", taken literally, would imply
> that
> > > the
> > > > schools really are in the marketable skills business, and I don't see
> > > much
> > > > evidence for that in the study. Am I missing something?
> > > >
> > > > David Kellogg
> > > > Macquarie University
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 1:24 AM, <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Margaret, Carrie, Phillip, Henry, Cornell,
> > > > >
> > > > > A central and key theme of this month’s article is neoliberalism in
> > all
> > > > > its guises.
> > > > > In my imaginary response i am addressing the authors of the paper
> and
> > > > > Cornell who addresses neoliberalism, and Phillip, who shared
> > Cornell’s
> > > > > article and Henry who heard Cornell offer a way to mediate our
> > crises.
> > > > > The paper is about teaching STEM and the neoliberal agenda that
> > ignores
> > > > > the plight of those who suffer.
> > > > > Cornell says the answer is (democratic soulcraft). At the heart of
> > this
> > > > > soulcraft is truth telling of the reality of suffering.
> > > > >
> > > > > In order to constitute or institute a (new) order a more
> pro/gressive
> > > > > order it seems suffering must be the key factor.
> > > > >
> > > > > The notion of ivory towers and their responses to suffering seems
> > > > central.
> > > > > I also want to explore the theme of (play) in relation to
> suffering.
> > > > >
> > > > > One exemplar:
> > > > > There is a Buddhist who organizes gatherings where food is prepared
> > and
> > > > > presented at the gatherings (for the homeless). Musical instruments
> > are
> > > > > also brought and dancing proceeds.
> > > > > Everyone participates and this is key: You cannot tell who are the
> > > > > homeless and who are the people who prepared the food. They are
> > > sharing a
> > > > > common (new) experience that is profoundly moving and creates a
> sense
> > > of
> > > > > well-being.
> > > > > This Buddhist practise is exemplary as a response to our current
> > > > > contemporary historical moment. It is truth telling and democratic
> > > > > soulcraft and PLAY. (each in the other).
> > > > > It is one way of answering Margaret, Carrie, Cornell, Phillip, and
> > > Henry.
> > > > > This Buddhist act or practice  is (crafting) an answer that speaks
> to
> > > > > suffering.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone
> > > > >
> > > > > From: HENRY SHONERD
> > > > > Sent: November 18, 2016 7:15 PM
> > > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you, Phillip.
> > > > > "For us in these times, to even have hope is too abstract, too
> > > detached,
> > > > > too spectatorial. Instead we must be a hope, a participant and a
> > force
> > > > for
> > > > > good as we face this catastrophe.”
> > > > > That’s my favorite part.
> > > > > Henry
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > On Nov 18, 2016, at 3:52 PM, White, Phillip <
> > > > Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > well, this is what Cornel West has to say:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/17/
> > > > > american-neoliberalism-cornel-west-2016-election
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/aae8946d80dac457aa8b6af3f9a9fd
> > > > > 5acc6b4acb/0_662_5150_3090/master/5150.jpg?w=1200&h=140&
> > > > > q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=crop&bm=normal&ba=bottom%
> 2Cleft&blend64=
> > > > > aHR0cHM6Ly91cGxvYWRzLmd1aW0uY28udWsvMjAxNi8wNS8yNS9vdmVybGF5
> > > > > LWxvZ28tMTIwMC05MF9vcHQucG5n&s=4cbd18b4943818f70304ff2cfdc3da2d]<
> > > > > https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/17/
> > > > > american-neoliberalism-cornel-west-2016-election>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Goodbye, American neoliberalism. A new era is here | Cornel West<
> > > > > https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/17/
> > > > > american-neoliberalism-cornel-west-2016-election>
> > > > > > www.theguardian.com
> > > > > > Trump’s election was enabled by the policies that overlooked the
> > > plight
> > > > > of our most vulnerable citizens. We gird ourselves for a
> frightening
> > > > future
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > phillip
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.
> > > edu
> > > > >
> > > > > on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com <lpscholar2@gmail.com>
> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 8:16:01 PM
> > > > > > To: Edward Wall; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion
> Re-started
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So basically engaging in play may be foundational to learning a
> > > > > particular disciplinary subject matter including mathematical play.
> > > > > > This playful approach as counterpoint to formal high stakes
> > > approaches.
> > > > > This places the scope of play (itself) at the center of our
> inquiry.
> > > > > > This feels intuitively to be relevant to exemplary ways of
> > learning.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Like imagination, play is not taken seriously , but may be
> > > foundational
> > > > > or necessary for learning that is exemplary.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: Edward Wall
> > > > > > Sent: November 17, 2016 4:45 PM
> > > > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion
> Re-started
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Larry
> > > > > >
> > > > > >     There are, at least, four somewhat current possibilities (I’m
> > not
> > > > > sure if they should be called exemplars) as regards mathematics
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1. Summerhill (and, perhaps, some other English private schools)
> > > > > > 2. Some private schools in the US (a book was written by a
> teacher
> > at
> > > > > one. If there is any interest I’ll see if I can dig up the title).
> > > > > > 3. The case of Louis P. Benezet in a US public school in1929
> > > > > > 4. There is some indication that schools in Finland and the
> > > Netherlands
> > > > > are, perhaps, a little less ‘neoliberal' (however, the evidence
> isn’t
> > > > clear)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Basically in some of the above formal mathematics instruction is
> > put
> > > > off
> > > > > until either children ask or until until fourth or fifth grade;
> > > however,
> > > > > children engage in, you might say, mathematical play (Dewey
> > recommended
> > > > > something like this). This is, by the way and according to some,
> also
> > > > what
> > > > > a good mathematics preK program looks like. Also, this is a bit as
> > > > regards
> > > > > mathematics what the ancient Greek version of schooling for the
> elite
> > > > > looked like (i.e. mathematics was put off).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ed
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> On Nov 17, 2016, at  3:05 PM, lpscholar2@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> The question remains, if this neoliberal context generates
> > > > > (hollowed-out) educational *spaces* or institutions then is it
> > possible
> > > > we
> > > > > are able to offer exemplars of other educational places (current or
> > > > > historical) that manifested different kinds of identity formation
> > that
> > > > were
> > > > > not hollowed out. I speculate these exemplars would embody or
> > incarnate
> > > > > deeply historical and  ethical orientations and practices.
> > > > > >> If we have lost our way, are there other models (cultural
> > > imaginaries)
> > > > > that co-generate developmental narratives that will nurture
> > well-being?
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Exemplary models that point in a certain direction
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Sent from my Windows 10 phone
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> From: Huw Lloyd
> > > > > >> Sent: November 17, 2016 11:32 AM
> > > > > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion
> > Re-started
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Alfredo,
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Yes, they're pathological.  I am merely saying that the problems
> > > > > inherent
> > > > > >> in the pathology can be edifying.  No, I don't think the issues
> > can
> > > be
> > > > > >> transcended within conventional practices. Perhaps the best that
> > can
> > > > be
> > > > > >> achieved is that the students recognise an institutional need
> for
> > > > "good
> > > > > >> behaviour" and the teacher recognises an educational need for
> real
> > > > > problem
> > > > > >> solving. For "real" education, we would need something like
> > > Davydov's
> > > > > >> system. But this is merely one view of the purpose of
> "education".
> > > > There
> > > > > >> are many who don't seem to recognise these (and other) important
> > > > > >> implications.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Best,
> > > > > >> Huw
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> On 17 November 2016 at 18:11, Alfredo Jornet Gil <
> > > a.j.gil@iped.uio.no
> > > > >
> > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>> Huw,
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> great comments. I like what you say, that the (institutional,
> > > social)
> > > > > >>> process always is educational, and I agree: it develops into
> the
> > > > > formation
> > > > > >>> of habit and character. But I still wonder whether all
> > educational
> > > > > >>> processes lead to growth or development, or whether we rather
> > > should
> > > > be
> > > > > >>> able to identify some processes as, we may call them,
> > > *pathological*
> > > > > (or
> > > > > >>> perhaps involutive?). There you have Bateson on double bind and
> > > > > >>> schizophrenia, for example. Here, in the article, we have some
> > > young
> > > > > >>> students that enter a system that generates a double bind (it
> was
> > > > Mike
> > > > > who
> > > > > >>> made me aware of the connection with double bind). The question
> > is,
> > > > > will
> > > > > >>> the system develop without some form of awareness *about* the
> > > double
> > > > > bind
> > > > > >>> that overcomes it by generating a system that does not only
> > include
> > > > the
> > > > > >>> double bind, but also its own description (thereby becoming a
> > > higher
> > > > > order
> > > > > >>> system, one in which participants, students and teachers, come
> to
> > > > grow
> > > > > >>> rather than come to stall).
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Alfredo
> > > > > >>> ________________________________________
> > > > > >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > > <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.
> > > > edu
> > > > > >
> > > > > >>> on behalf of Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
> > > > > >>> Sent: 17 November 2016 10:54
> > > > > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion
> > Re-started
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Alfredo,
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> The 'zone' is always present.  Whether it is recognised or not
> is
> > > > > another
> > > > > >>> matter.
> > > > > >>> I do not think this interpretation is quite a zero sum game,
> > > because
> > > > > there
> > > > > >>> is always the aspect that the institutionalised process is
> > > > educational
> > > > > --
> > > > > >>> the laws reveal themselves one way or another.  So (from an
> > Illich
> > > > > >>> perspective) the opportunity to discover what is real remains,
> it
> > > > just
> > > > > >>> takes a different course.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Best,
> > > > > >>> Huw
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> On 17 November 2016 at 07:37, Alfredo Jornet Gil <
> > > > a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
> > > > > >>> wrote:
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> What touches me of the article is something that perhaps
> relates
> > > to
> > > > > this
> > > > > >>>> tension that I find between David's (individualistic?)
> approach
> > to
> > > > > >>>> prolepsis in his post (David, I thought, and continue
> thinking,
> > > that
> > > > > >>>> prolepsis refers to something that emerges in the relation
> > between
> > > > > two,
> > > > > >>> not
> > > > > >>>> something that either is present or absent within a person),
> and
> > > > > >>> Phillip's
> > > > > >>>> view of young people figuring out what life is all about just
> as
> > > all
> > > > > we
> > > > > >>> do.
> > > > > >>>> And so here (and in any neoliberal school context) we have
> > > > wonderfully
> > > > > >>>> beautiful young people more or less interested in science or
> in
> > > > maths,
> > > > > >>> but
> > > > > >>>> all eager to live a life and evolve as best as they can
> > (whatever
> > > > that
> > > > > >>> best
> > > > > >>>> may mean for each one). And then you see how the history and
> > > context
> > > > > that
> > > > > >>>> they come into gives them everything they need to develop
> > motives
> > > > and
> > > > > >>>> goals; to then make sure that the majority of them won't make
> it
> > > so
> > > > > that
> > > > > >>>> only a few privileged (or in the case of Margaret's paper
> none,
> > > > > according
> > > > > >>>> to the authors) succeed. And then what remains is not just a
> > > > > hollowed-out
> > > > > >>>> science and math identity, but also a hollowed-out soul that
> had
> > > > > illusion
> > > > > >>>> and now just doesn't. Not only a failure to provide
> > opportunities
> > > to
> > > > > >>>> learners to become anything(one) good about science and math,
> > but
> > > > > also a
> > > > > >>>> robbing of other possible paths of development that may had
> > grown
> > > in
> > > > > >>> people
> > > > > >>>> if they had been hanging out with some other better company.
> Do
> > we
> > > > > have a
> > > > > >>>> term to refer to the opposite of a zone of proximal
> development?
> > > Not
> > > > > just
> > > > > >>>> the absence of it, but the strangling of it.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Alfredo
> > > > > >>>> ________________________________________
> > > > > >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > > <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.
> > > > > edu>
> > > > > >>>> on behalf of White, Phillip <Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu>
> > > > > >>>> Sent: 17 November 2016 06:29
> > > > > >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion
> > > Re-started
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> David, the examples on page 193, students 1, 2 & 3 - aren't
> > these
> > > > > >>> examples
> > > > > >>>> of proleptic thought - especially for student 2, who looks at
> > > where
> > > > > she
> > > > > >>> is
> > > > > >>>> "I have my own standards", a statement of the present, then a
> > > > looking
> > > > > >>> back
> > > > > >>>> at  what has happened, "I like to get straight A's". and then
> > > > setting
> > > > > a
> > > > > >>>> target for the future, "help for like to get in college and
> > stuff,
> > > > so
> > > > > >>> yeah,
> > > > > >>>> I participate in a lot of stuff." ending with a reassertion of
> > > > present
> > > > > >>>> activities to attain future goals.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> and there is a preponderance of the use of "I", rather than
> > "you".
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> i'd give the young people for credit than a myopia focused
> > merely
> > > on
> > > > > >>> their
> > > > > >>>> age: the business of young people is figuring out what life is
> > all
> > > > > about
> > > > > >>>> and how to participate, just as adults and infants and old
> > people
> > > > > like me
> > > > > >>>> do.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> i'm not convinced that your arguments are supported by the
> data
> > in
> > > > > this
> > > > > >>>> Eisenhard / Allen paper.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> phillip
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> ________________________________
> > > > > >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > > <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.
> > > > > edu>
> > > > > >>>> on behalf of David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com>
> > > > > >>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 1:24:35 PM
> > > > > >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion
> > > Re-started
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Actually, Henry, I was attacking the idea that tense is an
> empty
> > > > > mental
> > > > > >>>> space. I guess I am a little like Larry: when we discuss
> > articles
> > > I
> > > > > have
> > > > > >>> a
> > > > > >>>> strong tendency to try to make them relevant to what I am
> doing
> > > > rather
> > > > > >>> than
> > > > > >>>> to drop what I am doing and go and discuss what everybody else
> > is
> > > > > >>>> discussing. So what I am doing right now is trying to make
> sense
> > > of
> > > > > some
> > > > > >>>> story-telling data where the adults are all over the map on
> > > tenses,
> > > > > and
> > > > > >>> the
> > > > > >>>> kids seem to stick to one tense only. The adults are slipping
> in
> > > and
> > > > > out
> > > > > >>> of
> > > > > >>>> mental spaces. The kids are telling stories.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> I think the relevance to the article is this: When you look at
> > the
> > > > way
> > > > > >>> the
> > > > > >>>> article frames institutional practices and figured worlds, we
> > see
> > > > > >>>> prolepsis--a preoccupation with the future. But when we look
> at
> > > what
> > > > > the
> > > > > >>>> kids are doing and saying it is very much in the moment. Is
> this
> > > > > simply
> > > > > >>>> because mental processes like "like" and "want" tend to take
> > > simple
> > > > > >>> present
> > > > > >>>> (because they are less defined than material processes)? Or is
> > it
> > > > > because
> > > > > >>>> while the institutions have the near future firmly in view and
> > the
> > > > > >>> figured
> > > > > >>>> worlds have irrealis in view, the business of young people is
> > > youth?
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Vygotsky points out that the question the interviewer asks is
> > very
> > > > > much a
> > > > > >>>> part of the data. For example, if you ask a question using
> "you"
> > > you
> > > > > >>> often
> > > > > >>>> get "you" in reply, even if you design your question to get
> "I".
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Q: Why do you want to kill yourself?
> > > > > >>>> A: The same reason everybody wants to kill themselves. You
> want
> > to
> > > > > find
> > > > > >>> out
> > > > > >>>> if anybody really cares.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> To take another example that is probably more relevant to
> > readers:
> > > > > both
> > > > > >>> the
> > > > > >>>> Brexit vote and the American elections are clear examples of
> > > > > statistical
> > > > > >>>> unreliability in that if you tried to repeat the election the
> > > > morning
> > > > > >>> after
> > > > > >>>> you would probably get an utterly different result. Take all
> of
> > > > those
> > > > > >>> black
> > > > > >>>> voters and the real working class voters who voted Obama but
> > > > couldn't
> > > > > be
> > > > > >>>> bothered for Hillary (not the imaginary "white working class
> > > voters"
> > > > > who
> > > > > >>>> work in imaginary industries in Iowa, rural Pennsylvania,
> North
> > > > > Carolina
> > > > > >>>> and Florida). They might well have behaved rather differently
> > > > knowing
> > > > > how
> > > > > >>>> imminent the neo-Confederacy really was. This is usually
> > presented
> > > > as
> > > > > >>>> "buyer's remorse," but it's more than that; the event itself
> > would
> > > > be
> > > > > >>> part
> > > > > >>>> of its replication. This is something that statistical models
> > that
> > > > use
> > > > > >>>> standard error of the mean cannot build in (they work on the
> > > > > impossible
> > > > > >>>> idea that you can repeat an event ten or twenty thousand times
> > > > without
> > > > > >>> any
> > > > > >>>> memory at all).
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> In the same way, when you interview a group of students
> together
> > > you
> > > > > >>> notice
> > > > > >>>> that they tend to model answers on each other rather than on
> > your
> > > > > >>> question,
> > > > > >>>> and when you interview them separately, you notice that YOU
> tend
> > > to
> > > > > >>> change
> > > > > >>>> your question according to the previous answer you received.
> On
> > > the
> > > > > one
> > > > > >>>> hand, life is not easily distracted by its own future: it is
> too
> > > > > wholly
> > > > > >>>> there in each moment of existence. On the other hand, each of
> > > these
> > > > > >>> moments
> > > > > >>>> includes the previous one, and therefore all the previous
> ones,
> > in
> > > > > >>> itself.
> > > > > >>>> The past weighs like a nightmare on the brain of the living,
> and
> > > > > objects
> > > > > >>> in
> > > > > >>>> the rear view mirror are always closer than they appear.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> David Kellogg
> > > > > >>>> Macquarie University
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 10:23 AM, HENRY SHONERD <
> > > hshonerd@gmail.com
> > > > >
> > > > > >>>> wrote:
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>> David,
> > > > > >>>>> I was puzzled that you found Langacker to be relevant to this
> > > > topic,
> > > > > >>> but
> > > > > >>>>> the last paragraph of your post makes an important connection
> > > > between
> > > > > >>>>> Langacker and Vygotsky: Both see speech acts as
> > > staged…interactants
> > > > > >>> view
> > > > > >>>>> themselves as “on stage”. I think the book by Vera and Reuben
> > is
> > > > > >>> largely
> > > > > >>>>> about how differently math is “staged” by working
> > mathematicians
> > > as
> > > > > >>>>> contrasted with doing math in school. I think it would be
> > > > interesting
> > > > > >>> to
> > > > > >>>>> analyze how natural language and the language of math
> scaffold
> > > each
> > > > > >>> other
> > > > > >>>>> in both contexts. Word problems have been a well-used way of
> > > > > connecting
> > > > > >>>> the
> > > > > >>>>> two languages; stats and graphs are commonly used in the
> media
> > to
> > > > > >>> clarify
> > > > > >>>>> and elaborate text in articles on economics, presidential
> > > > elections,
> > > > > >>> and
> > > > > >>>>> what not.
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> I would love to read your “unpublishable” on Langacker and
> > > Halliday
> > > > > on
> > > > > >>>>> tense. What I recall from reading Langacker is his interest
> in
> > > > “basic
> > > > > >>>>> domains”, starting with the temporal and spatial. Somewhere
> he
> > > has
> > > > > said
> > > > > >>>>> that he believes that the temporal domain is the more basic.
> As
> > > > you’d
> > > > > >>>>> guess, the spatial domain is especially useful in elucidating
> > > what
> > > > he
> > > > > >>>> calls
> > > > > >>>>> “things” (nouns are conceptually about things); the temporal
> > > domain
> > > > > is
> > > > > >>>> more
> > > > > >>>>> closely connected to what he calls “processes” wherein he
> > > analyzes
> > > > > >>> tense
> > > > > >>>>> and aspect.
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> I think Langacker would agree that his work in cognitive
> > grammar
> > > > has
> > > > > a
> > > > > >>>>> long way to go in contributing to the idea that grammar is
> > usage
> > > > > based,
> > > > > >>>>> rather than some autonomous module, but he is working on it.
> I
> > > > think
> > > > > >>>> there
> > > > > >>>>> is a potential for connecting Halliday and Langacker, though
> > I’m
> > > > not
> > > > > >>>> smart
> > > > > >>>>> enough to convince you of that evidently. Somehow the
> > connection
> > > > must
> > > > > >>> be
> > > > > >>>>> made by staying close to the data, “thick description”
> > > > ethnographers
> > > > > >>> are
> > > > > >>>>> fond of saying. I think the article by Carrie and Margaret is
> > > > raising
> > > > > >>>> this
> > > > > >>>>> issue.
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> The “hollowed out” math curriculum in the article resonates
> > with
> > > > the
> > > > > >>>>> “potholes” you say teachers must watch out for. Some may say
> > that
> > > > > the
> > > > > >>>>> hollowing out is typical even of “elite” K-12 schools. Some
> may
> > > say
> > > > > >>> that
> > > > > >>>>> this is deliberate. I would say my own experience of math in
> > > school
> > > > > was
> > > > > >>>>> often hollowed out, which I sensed, but didn’t discover
> until I
> > > got
> > > > > to
> > > > > >>>> the
> > > > > >>>>> “pure math” department in the mid 60s at Univ of Texas at
> > Austin
> > > > > under
> > > > > >>>> the
> > > > > >>>>> leadership of Robert Lee Moore. He is a main protagonist in
> > > > Chapter 8
> > > > > >>> of
> > > > > >>>>> Vera’s and Reuben’s book.
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> I’ll end it there.
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> Henry
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> On Nov 15, 2016, at 1:38 PM, David Kellogg <
> > > dkellogg60@gmail.com>
> > > > > >>>> wrote:
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> Henry:
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> I just wrote another unpublishable comparing how Langacker
> and
> > > > > >>>>>> Halliday treat tense, and I'm starting to come to grips with
> > the
> > > > > >>>>> different
> > > > > >>>>>> theory of experience underlying the two grammars. Langacker
> > > > somehow
> > > > > >>>> sees
> > > > > >>>>> it
> > > > > >>>>>> as creating empty mental space (and aspect as creating space
> > > > within
> > > > > >>>>> space).
> > > > > >>>>>> Halliday sees tense as a way of abstracting concrete doings
> > and
> > > > > >>>>> happenings.
> > > > > >>>>>> Halliday's tense system is not spatial at all but temporal:
> > it's
> > > > > >>>>> temporally
> > > > > >>>>>> deictic and then temporally recursive: a kind of time
> machine
> > > that
> > > > > >>>>>> simultaneously transports and orients the speaker either
> > > > > >>> proleptically
> > > > > >>>> or
> > > > > >>>>>> retroleptically. So for example if I say to you that this
> > > article
> > > > we
> > > > > >>>> are
> > > > > >>>>>> discussing is going to have been being discussed for two or
> > > three
> > > > > >>> weeks
> > > > > >>>>>> now, then "is going" is a kind of time machine that takes
> you
> > > into
> > > > > >>> the
> > > > > >>>>>> future, from which "You are Here" vantage point the article
> > has
> > > > been
> > > > > >>>>> (past)
> > > > > >>>>>> being discussed (present). Present in the past in the
> future.
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> And that got me thinking about theory and practice. It seems
> > to
> > > me
> > > > > >>> that
> > > > > >>>>> the
> > > > > >>>>>> they are related, but simultaneously and not sequentially.
> > That
> > > > is,
> > > > > >>> the
> > > > > >>>>>> output of one is not the input of the other: they are simply
> > > more
> > > > > and
> > > > > >>>>> less
> > > > > >>>>>> abstract ways of looking at one and the same thing. So for
> > > example
> > > > > in
> > > > > >>>>> this
> > > > > >>>>>> article the tasks of theory and practice are one and the
> same:
> > > the
> > > > > >>> task
> > > > > >>>>> of
> > > > > >>>>>> theory is really to define as precisely as possible the
> > domain,
> > > > the
> > > > > >>>>> scope,
> > > > > >>>>>> the range of the inquiry into authoring math and science
> > > > identities
> > > > > >>> and
> > > > > >>>>> the
> > > > > >>>>>> task of practice is to ask what exactly you want to do in
> this
> > > > > >>>>>> domain/scope/range--to try to understand how they are
> hollowed
> > > > out a
> > > > > >>>>> little
> > > > > >>>>>> better so that maybe teachers like you and me can help fill
> > the
> > > > damn
> > > > > >>>>>> potholes in a little. You can't really do the one without
> > doing
> > > > the
> > > > > >>>>> other:
> > > > > >>>>>> trying to decide the terrain under study without deciding
> some
> > > > task
> > > > > >>>> that
> > > > > >>>>>> you want to do there is like imagining tense as empty mental
> > > space
> > > > > >>> and
> > > > > >>>>> not
> > > > > >>>>>> as some actual, concrete doing or happening. Conversely, the
> > way
> > > > you
> > > > > >>>> dig
> > > > > >>>>>> the hole depends very much on how big and where you want it.
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> So there are three kinds of mental spaces in the first part
> of
> > > the
> > > > > >>>>> article:
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> a) institutional arrangements (e.g. "priority improvement
> > > plans",
> > > > > >>>>>> career-academy/comprehensive school status STEM tracks, AP
> > > > classes)
> > > > > >>>>>> b) figured worlds (e.g. 'good students', and 'don't cares',
> or
> > > > what
> > > > > >>>>> Eckhart
> > > > > >>>>>> and McConnell-Ginet called 'jocks', 'nerds',  'burnouts',
> > > > > >>>> 'gangbangers')
> > > > > >>>>>> c) authored identities (i.e. what kids say about themselves
> > and
> > > > what
> > > > > >>>> they
> > > > > >>>>>> think about themselves)
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> Now, I think it's possible to make this distinction--but
> they
> > > are
> > > > > >>>>> probably
> > > > > >>>>>> better understood not as mental spaces (in which case they
> > > really
> > > > do
> > > > > >>>>>> overlap) but rather as doings (or, as is my wont, sayings).
> > > > > Different
> > > > > >>>>>> people are saying different things: a) is mostly the sayings
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > >>>>> school
> > > > > >>>>>> boards and administrators, b) is mostly the sayings of
> > teachers
> > > > and
> > > > > >>>>> groups
> > > > > >>>>>> of kids, and c) is mostly the sayings of individual
> students.
> > > It's
> > > > > >>>> always
> > > > > >>>>>> tempting for a theory to focus on c), because that's where
> all
> > > the
> > > > > >>> data
> > > > > >>>>> is
> > > > > >>>>>> and it's tempting for practice too, because if you are
> against
> > > > what
> > > > > >>> is
> > > > > >>>>>> happening in a) and in b), that's where the most likely
> point
> > of
> > > > > >>>>>> intervention is.
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> "But the data does suggest that the "figured worlds" are
> > figured
> > > > by
> > > > > >>>>>> authored identities--not by institutional arrangements. Is
> > that
> > > > just
> > > > > >>> an
> > > > > >>>>>> artefact of the warm empathy of the authors for the words
> > > > (although
> > > > > >>>> maybe
> > > > > >>>>>> not the exact wordings) of their subjects, or is it real
> > grounds
> > > > for
> > > > > >>>>> hope?
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> Marx says (beginning of the 18th Brumaire): "*Men make*
> their
> > > own
> > > > > >>>>> *history*,
> > > > > >>>>>> *but they* do *not make* it as *they* please; *they* do *not
> > > make*
> > > > > it
> > > > > >>>>>> under self-selected circumstances, *but* under circumstances
> > > > > existing
> > > > > >>>>>> already, given and transmitted from the *past*. The
> tradition
> > of
> > > > all
> > > > > >>>> dead
> > > > > >>>>>> generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the
> > > living."
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> It's a good theory, i.e. at once a truth and a tragedy. And
> > > it's a
> > > > > >>>>>> theory treats time as time and not as an empty stage.
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> David Kellogg
> > > > > >>>>>> Macquarie University
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 9:39 AM, HENRY SHONERD <
> > > > hshonerd@gmail.com>
> > > > > >>>>> wrote:
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>> All,
> > > > > >>>>>>> I have read only part of Margaret’s and Carrie’s article,
> > but I
> > > > > >>> wanted
> > > > > >>>>> to
> > > > > >>>>>>> jump in with a reference to a book by Vygotskian Vera
> > > > John-Steiner
> > > > > >>> and
> > > > > >>>>> her
> > > > > >>>>>>> mathematician husband Reuben Hersh: Loving and Hating
> > > > Mathematics:
> > > > > >>>>>>> Challenging the Mathematical Life. Huw’s point (v) which
> > refers
> > > > to
> > > > > >>>>>>> “identities of independence and finding out sustainable
> > within
> > > > > these
> > > > > >>>>>>> settings (school math classes) spent high school. Vera’s
> and
> > > > > >>> Reuben’s
> > > > > >>>>> book
> > > > > >>>>>>> contrasts what it’s like to work and think like a real
> > > (working)
> > > > > >>>>>>> mathematician (what I think Huw is talking about) and what
> we
> > > > call
> > > > > >>>>>>> mathematics in the classroom. Chapter 8 of the book "The
> > > Teaching
> > > > > of
> > > > > >>>>>>> Mathematics: Fierce or Friendly?” is interesting reading
> and
> > > > could
> > > > > >>> be
> > > > > >>>>>>> relevant to this discussion.
> > > > > >>>>>>> Henry
> > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>> On Nov 13, 2016, at 2:47 PM, Huw Lloyd <
> > > > huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
> > > > > >>>>> wrote:
> > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>> Dear Margaret
> > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>> My reading has not been a particularly careful one, so I
> > leave
> > > > it
> > > > > >>> to
> > > > > >>>>>>>> yourselves to judge the usefulness of these points.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>> i) Whether arguments can be made (for or against) a
> nebulous
> > > > term
> > > > > >>>>>>>> (neoliberalism) with its political associations, by
> > arguments
> > > > > about
> > > > > >>>>>>>> identity that are themselves not deliberately political.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>> ii) Whether it is better not to focus essentially on the
> > place
> > > > of
> > > > > >>>>>>> identity.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>> iii) Whether it is worthwhile contrasting the
> role/identity
> > of
> > > > > >>> "model
> > > > > >>>>>>>> student" with "identities" that anyone excelling at STEM
> > > > subjects
> > > > > >>>> would
> > > > > >>>>>>>> relate to.  On this, I would point to the importance with
> > > > > >>> identifying
> > > > > >>>>>>> with
> > > > > >>>>>>>> appreciations for "awareness of not knowing" and
> "eagerness
> > to
> > > > > find
> > > > > >>>>> out"
> > > > > >>>>>>>> (which also entails learning about what it means to know).
> > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>> iv) Whether you detect that to the degree that an identity
> > is
> > > > > >>>>>>> foregrounded
> > > > > >>>>>>>> in the actual practice of STEM work (rather than as
> > background
> > > > > >>> social
> > > > > >>>>>>>> appeasement), it is being faked? That is, someone is
> playing
> > > at
> > > > > the
> > > > > >>>>> role
> > > > > >>>>>>>> rather than actually committing themselves to finding out
> > > about
> > > > > >>>>> unknowns.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>> v) Whether, in fact, there is actually a "tiered" or
> varied
> > > set
> > > > of
> > > > > >>>>>>>> acceptable "identities" within the settings you explored,
> > such
> > > > > that
> > > > > >>>>>>>> identities of independence and finding out are sustainable
> > > > within
> > > > > >>>> these
> > > > > >>>>>>>> settings, possibly representing a necessary fudge to deal
> > with
> > > > the
> > > > > >>>>>>>> requirements placed upon the institutions.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>> Best,
> > > > > >>>>>>>> Huw
> > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>> On 12 November 2016 at 20:30, Margaret A Eisenhart <
> > > > > >>>>>>>> margaret.eisenhart@colorado.edu> wrote:
> > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>> Hello Everyone,
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>> Carrie and I are newcomers to this list, and we thank you
> > for
> > > > the
> > > > > >>>>>>>>> opportunity to engage with you about our article,
> “Hollowed
> > > > Out.”
> > > > > >>>> We
> > > > > >>>>>>> also
> > > > > >>>>>>>>> hope for your patience as we learn to participate in the
> > > stream
> > > > > of
> > > > > >>>>>>>>> thinking here!
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>> Given the comments so far, we are intrigued by others’
> > ideas
> > > > > about
> > > > > >>>> the
> > > > > >>>>>>>>> link between our theory and our data.  On this topic, we
> > > would
> > > > > >>> like
> > > > > >>>> to
> > > > > >>>>>>>>> make clear that we did not intend to suggest that the
> > > students
> > > > > >>> were
> > > > > >>>>>>> making
> > > > > >>>>>>>>> sense of their lives in the same way that we interpreted
> > them
> > > > > >>>> through
> > > > > >>>>>>> the
> > > > > >>>>>>>>> lens of our theory. Our claim is that opportunities and
> > > figured
> > > > > >>>> worlds
> > > > > >>>>>>> are
> > > > > >>>>>>>>> resources for identity and that the students' words to us
> > > > > >>> reflected
> > > > > >>>>>>>>> perspectives consistent with neoliberalism, with some
> > pretty
> > > > > >>> serious
> > > > > >>>>>>>>> implications. Like Phillip White, we are interested in
> what
> > > > > >>> theories
> > > > > >>>>>>>>> others would use to explain the data we presented.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>> Like Mike Cole, we are also intrigued by the prospect of
> > > > > >>> “exemplars”
> > > > > >>>>> we
> > > > > >>>>>>>>> might turn to.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>> We look forward to hearing your thoughts.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>> Margaret Eisenhart
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>> On 11/11/16, 11:35 AM, "lpscholar2@gmail.com" <
> > > > > >>> lpscholar2@gmail.com
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> A resumption in exploring the meaning and sense
> > (preferably
> > > > sens
> > > > > >>> as
> > > > > >>>>>>> this
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> term draws attention to movement and direction within
> > > meaning
> > > > > and
> > > > > >>>>>>> sense)
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> of this month’s article.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> The paper begins with the title and the image of
> > > > (hollowed-out)
> > > > > >>>>> meaning
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> and sense that is impoverished and holds few resources
> for
> > > > > >>>>> developing a
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> deeper sens of identity.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> The article concludes with the implication that the work
> > of
> > > > > >>> social
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> justice within educational institutions is not about
> > > improving
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> educational outcome in neoliberal terms; the
> implications
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > >>>>> study
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> are about *reorganizing* the identities – particulary
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> identities-with-standind that young people are *exposed*
> > to,
> > > > can
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> articulate, and can act on (in school and beyond).
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> I would say this is taking an ethical stand?.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> I will now turn to page 189 and the section
> > > > > (identity-in-context)
> > > > > >>>> to
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> amplify the notion of (cultural imaginary) and (figured
> > > > worlds).
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> This imaginary being the site or location of
> > > > history-in-person.
> > > > > >>>> That
> > > > > >>>>> is
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> identity is a form of legacy (or *text*) ABOUT the kind
> of
> > > > > person
> > > > > >>>> one
> > > > > >>>>>>> is
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> or has become in responding to (external) circumstances.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> These external circumstances are EXPERIENCED primarily
> in
> > > the
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> organization of local practices and cultural imaginaries
> > > > > (figured
> > > > > >>>>>>> worlds)
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> that circulate and *give meaning* (and sens) to local
> > > > practices
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Figured worlds are interpreted following Holland as
> > socially
> > > > and
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> culturally *realms of interpretation* and certain
> players
> > > are
> > > > > >>>>>>> recognized
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> as (exemplars).
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> As such cultural, social, historical, dialogical
> > > psychological
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> (imaginaries) are handmaidens of the imaginal *giving
> > > meaning*
> > > > > to
> > > > > >>>>>>> *what*
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> goes on in the directions we take together.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Two key terms i highlight are (exemplars) and
> (direction)
> > we
> > > > > >>> take.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> The realm of the ethical turn
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> What are the markers and signposts emerging in the
> deeper
> > > > > ethical
> > > > > >>>>> turn
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> that offers more than a hollowed-out answer.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Are there any *ghost* stories of exemplars we can turn
> to
> > as
> > > > > well
> > > > > >>>> as
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> living exemplars? By ghosts i mean ancestors who
> continue
> > as
> > > > > >>>> beacons
> > > > > >>>>> of
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> hope exemplifying *who* we are.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> My way into exploring the impoverished narratives of the
> > > > > >>> neoliberal
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> imaginary and reawakening exemplary ancestors or ghosts
> > from
> > > > > >>> their
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> slumber to help guide us through these multiple
> > imaginaries
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> From: mike cole
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Sent: November 9, 2016 3:04 PM
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion
> > > > > >>> Re-started
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Alfredo--
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> for any who missed the initial article sent out, you
> might
> > > > send
> > > > > >>>> them
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> here:
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> I am meeting shortly with Bruce. A list of improvements
> to
> > > web
> > > > > >>> site
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> welcome, although not clear how long they will take to
> > > > > implement.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> mike
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil <
> > > > > >>>>>>> a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Dear all,
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> last week I announced MCA's 3rd Issue article for
> > > discussion:
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> "Hollowed Out: Meaning and Authoring of High School
> Math
> > > and
> > > > > >>>> Science
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Identities in the Context of Neoliberal Reform," by
> > > Margaret
> > > > > >>>>> Eisenhart
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> and
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> The article is open access and will continue to be so
> > > during
> > > > > the
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> discussion time at this link.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks to everyone who begun the discussion early
> after I
> > > > > shared
> > > > > >>>> the
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> link
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> last week, and sorry that we sort of brought the
> > discussion
> > > > to
> > > > > a
> > > > > >>>>> halt
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> until
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> the authors were ready to discuss. I have now sent
> > Margaret
> > > > and
> > > > > >>>>> Carrie
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> the
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> posts that were produced then so that they could catch
> > up,
> > > > but
> > > > > I
> > > > > >>>>> also
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> invited them to feel free to move on an introduce
> > > themselves
> > > > as
> > > > > >>>> soon
> > > > > >>>>>>> as
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> they ??wanted.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> It is not without some doubts that one introduces a
> > > > discussion
> > > > > >>> of
> > > > > >>>> an
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> article in a moment that some US media have called as
> "An
> > > > > >>> American
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Tragedy"
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> and other international editorials are describing as "a
> > > dark
> > > > > day
> > > > > >>>> for
> > > > > >>>>>>> the
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> world." But I believe that the paper may indeed offer
> > some
> > > > > >>> grounds
> > > > > >>>>> for
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> discuss important issues that are at stake in
> everyone's
> > > home
> > > > > >>> now,
> > > > > >>>>> as
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Mike
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> recently describes in a touching post on the "local
> state
> > > of
> > > > > >>> mind"
> > > > > >>>>> and
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> that
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> have to do with identity and its connection to a
> > neoliberal
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> organisation of
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> the economy. It is not difficult to link neoliberalism
> to
> > > > > >>> Trump's
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> phenomenon and how it pervades very intimate aspects of
> > > > > everyday
> > > > > >>>>> life.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> If this was not enough, I think the authors' background
> > on
> > > > > >>> women's
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> scholar
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> and professional careers in science is totally relevant
> > to
> > > > the
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> discussions
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> on gendered discourse we've been having. Now without
> > > halts, I
> > > > > >>> hope
> > > > > >>>>>>> this
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> thread gives joys and wisdom to all.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > > > > >>>> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.
> > > > > >>>>>>> edu>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:48
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for
> discussion
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks Mike and everyone! I am sure Margaret (and many
> of
> > > > those
> > > > > >>>>> still
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> reading) will be happy to be able to catch up when she
> > > joins
> > > > us
> > > > > >>>> next
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> week!
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > > > > >>>> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.
> > > > > >>>>>>> edu>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:32
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for
> discussion
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Gentlemen -- I believe Fernando told us that Margaret
> > would
> > > > be
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> able to join this discussion next week. Just a quick
> > glance
> > > > at
> > > > > >>> the
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> discussion so far indicates that there is a lot there
> to
> > > wade
> > > > > >>> into
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> before she has had a word.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> I am only part way through the article, expecting to
> have
> > > > until
> > > > > >>>> next
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> week
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> to think about it.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> May I suggest your forbearance while this slow-poke
> tries
> > > to
> > > > > >>> catch
> > > > > >>>>> up!
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> mike
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 3:38 PM, White, Phillip
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> <Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> David & Larry, everyone else ...
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> by way of introduction, Margaret and Carrie point out
> > that
> > > > the
> > > > > >>>> data
> > > > > >>>>>>> in
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> this paper emerged through a three year study - which
> > was
> > > > the
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> processes
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> of
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> how students of color, interested in STEM, responded
> to
> > > the
> > > > > >>>>>>> externally
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> imposed neoliberal requirements. they framed their
> study
> > > > using
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> theories
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> of
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> social practices on how identity developed in context.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> David, you reject the theories.  or so i understand
> your
> > > > > >>>> position.
> > > > > >>>>> as
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> you
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> write: It's that the theory
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> are you also rejecting the data as well?  it seems as
> if
> > > you
> > > > > >>> are
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> suggesting this when you write: The authors find this
> > > point
> > > > > (in
> > > > > >>>> the
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> case
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> of
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Lorena) somewhere between the
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh
> > grade,
> > > > but
> > > > > I
> > > > > >>>>> think
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> you reject the narrative of Lorena on the grounds that
> > it
> > > > > could
> > > > > >>>> be
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> traced
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> back to infancy.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> do you also reject the identical narrative found in
> the
> > > > adult
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> practitioners within the context of the high schools?
> > > that
> > > > > >>> this
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> narrative
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> is not one of a contemporary neoliberal practice but
> > > rather
> > > > > >>> could
> > > > > >>>>> be
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> traced
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> back to, say, the mid 1600's new england colonies, in
> > > > > >>> particular
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> massachusettes, where the practices of public american
> > > > > >>> education
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> began?
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> to explain the data that emerged from the
> > Eisenhart/Allen
> > > > > >>> study,
> > > > > >>>>> what
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> theories would you have used?
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> phillip
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com <
> lpscholar2@gmail.com
> > >
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2016 7:03 AM
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> To: David Kellogg; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for
> discussion
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret and Carrie,
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for this wonderful paper that explains the
> > > shallow
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> *hollowed-out* way of forming identity as a form of
> > > meaning
> > > > > and
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> sense. I
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> will add the French word *sens* which always includes
> > > > > >>> *direction*
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> within
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> meaning and sense.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> David, your response that what our theory makes sens
> of
> > > > > depends
> > > > > >>>> on
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> where
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> we are looking makes sens to me.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> You put in question the moment when the interpersonal
> > (you
> > > > and
> > > > > >>>> me)
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> way of
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> authoring sens *shifts* or turns to cultural and
> > > historical
> > > > > >>> ways
> > > > > >>>> of
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> being
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> immersed in sens. The article refers to the
> > > > > >>>> *historical-in-person*.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> My further comment, where I am looking) is in the
> > > > description
> > > > > >>> of
> > > > > >>>>> the
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> sociocultural as a response to *externally changing
> > > > > >>>> circumstances*
> > > > > >>>>>>> as
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> the
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> process of *learning as becoming* (see page 190).
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> The article says:
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> This process is what Lave and Wenger (1991) and other
> > > > > >>>> Sociocultural
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> researchers have referred to as *learning as
> becoming,*
> > > that
> > > > > >>> is,
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> learning
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> that occurs as one becomes a certain kind of person
> in a
> > > > > >>>> particular
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> context.  Identities conceived in this way are not
> > stable
> > > or
> > > > > >>>> fixed.
> > > > > >>>>>>> As
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> *external circumstances* affecting a person change, so
> > too
> > > > may
> > > > > >>>> the
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> identities that are produced *in response*. (Holland &
> > > > > Skinner,
> > > > > >>>>>>> 1997).
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> In this version of *history-in-person* the identity
> > > > processes
> > > > > >>>> that
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> start
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> the process moving in a neoliberal *direction* are
> > > > *external*
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances. I am not questioning this version of
> the
> > > > > >>>> importance
> > > > > >>>>> of
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> the
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> external but do question if looking primarily or
> > > > primordially
> > > > > >>> to
> > > > > >>>>> the
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> external circumstances as central if we are not
> leaving
> > a
> > > > gap
> > > > > >>> in
> > > > > >>>>> our
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> notions of *sens*.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> If by looking or highlighting or illuminating the
> > > *external*
> > > > > >>> and
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> highly
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> visible acts of the actual we are leaving a gap in
> > > > actual*ity.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> A gap in *sens*.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> To be continued by others...
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> From: David Kellogg
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: October 31, 2016 2:15 PM
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for
> discussion
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> I was turning Mike's request--for a short explanation
> of
> > > the
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Halliday/Vygotsky interface--over in my mind for a few
> > > days,
> > > > > >>>> unsure
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> where
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> to start. I usually decide these difficult "where to
> > > start"
> > > > > >>>>> questions
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> in
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> the easiest possible way, with whatever I happen to be
> > > > working
> > > > > >>>> on.
> > > > > >>>>> In
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> this
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> case it's the origins of language in a one year old, a
> > > > moment
> > > > > >>>> which
> > > > > >>>>>>> is
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> almost as mysterious to me as the origins of life or
> the
> > > Big
> > > > > >>>> Bang.
> > > > > >>>>>>> But
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps for that very reason it's not a good place to
> > > start
> > > > > >>> (the
> > > > > >>>>> Big
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Bang
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> always seemed to me to jump the gun a bit, not to
> > mention
> > > > the
> > > > > >>>>> origins
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> of
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> life).
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Let me start with the "Hollowed Out" paper Alfredo
> just
> > > > > >>>>> thoughtfully
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> sent
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> around instead. My first impression is that this paper
> > > > leaves
> > > > > a
> > > > > >>>>>>> really
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> big
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> gap between the data and the conclusions, and that
> this
> > > gap
> > > > is
> > > > > >>>>>>> largely
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> filled by theory. Here are some examples of what I
> mean:
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> a)    "Whereas 'subject position' is given by society,
> > > > > >>> 'identity'
> > > > > >>>>> is
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> self-authored, although it must be recognized by
> others
> > to
> > > > be
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> sustained."
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> (p. 189)
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> b)  "It is notable that this construction of a good
> > > student,
> > > > > >>>> though
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> familiar, does not make any reference to personal
> > > interest,
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> excitement,
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> or
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> engagement in the topics or content-related
> activities."
> > > > (193)
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> c)  "When students' statements such as 'I get it',
> 'I'm
> > > > > >>>> confident',
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> 'I'm
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> good at this', and  'I can pull this off' are
> > interpreted
> > > in
> > > > > >>> the
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> context
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> of
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> the figured world of math or science at the two
> schools,
> > > > their
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> statements
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> index more than a grade. They reference a meaning
> system
> > > for
> > > > > >>>> being
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> good
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> in
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> math or science that includes the actor identity
> > > > > >>> characteristics
> > > > > >>>> of
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> being
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> able to grasp the subject matter easily, do the work
> > > > quickly,
> > > > > >>> do
> > > > > >>>> it
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> without
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> help from others, do it faster than others, and get an
> > A."
> > > > > >>> (193)
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> In each case, we are told to believe in a theory:
> "given
> > > by
> > > > > >>>>> society",
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> "self-authored", "does not make any reference", "the
> > > context
> > > > > of
> > > > > >>>> the
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> figured
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> world". It's not just that in each case the theory
> seems
> > > to
> > > > go
> > > > > >>>>>>> against
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> the
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> data (although it certainly does in places, such as
> > > Lowena's
> > > > > >>>> views
> > > > > >>>>> as
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> a
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> tenth grader). I can always live with a theory that
> > > > > contradicts
> > > > > >>>> my
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> data:
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> that's what being a rationalist is all about. It's
> that
> > > the
> > > > > >>>> theory
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> I don't believe that identity is self authored, and I
> > also
> > > > > >>> don't
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> believe
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> that subject position is given by society as a whole,
> I
> > > > think
> > > > > >>> the
> > > > > >>>>>>> word
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> "good" does include personal interest, excitement, and
> > > > > >>> engagement
> > > > > >>>>> as
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> much
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> as it includes being able to grasp the subject matter
> > > > easily,
> > > > > >>> do
> > > > > >>>>> the
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> work
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> quickly, do it without help from others, do it faster
> > than
> > > > > >>> others
> > > > > >>>>> and
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> get
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> an A. To me anyway, the key word in the data given in
> c)
> > > is
> > > > > >>>>> actually
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> "I"
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> and not "it" or "this": the students think they are
> > > talking
> > > > > >>>> about,
> > > > > >>>>>>> and
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> therefore probably are actually talking about, a
> > relation
> > > > > >>> between
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> their
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> inner states and the activity at hand  or between the
> > > > activity
> > > > > >>> at
> > > > > >>>>>>> hand
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> and
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> the result they get; they are not invoking the figured
> > > world
> > > > > of
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> neoliberal
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> results and prospects.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> But never mind my own theories. Any gap is, after
> all, a
> > > > good
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> opportunity
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> for theory building. The authors are raising a key
> issue
> > > in
> > > > > >>> both
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Vygotsky
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> and Halliday: when does an interpersonal relation
> > become a
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural one? That is, when does that 'me"
> and
> > > > "you"
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> relationship
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> in which I really do have the power to author my
> > identity
> > > (I
> > > > > >>> can
> > > > > >>>>> make
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> up
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> any name I want and, within limits, invent my own
> > history,
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> particularly
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> if
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> I am a backpacker) give way to a job, an address, a
> > number
> > > > and
> > > > > >>> a
> > > > > >>>>>>> class
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> over
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> which I have very little power at all? When does the
> > > > > >>>> interpersonal
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> somehow
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> become an alien ideational "identity" that confronts
> me
> > > > like a
> > > > > >>>>>>> strange
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> ghost when I look in the mirror?
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> The authors find this point (in the case of Lorena)
> > > > somewhere
> > > > > >>>>> between
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> the
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh
> > grade,
> > > > but
> > > > > I
> > > > > >>>>> think
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking. We
> can
> > > > > >>> probably
> > > > > >>>>> find
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> the
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> roots of this distinction (between the interpersonal
> and
> > > the
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural) as far back as we like, right back
> > to
> > > > > >>>>> (Vygotsky)
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> the
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> moment when the child gives up the "self-authored"
> > > language
> > > > at
> > > > > >>>> one
> > > > > >>>>>>> and
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> takes on the language recognized by others and
> > (Halliday)
> > > > the
> > > > > >>>>> moment
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> when
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> the child distinguishes between Attributive
> identifying
> > > > > clauses
> > > > > >>>>> ("I'm
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> confident", "I'm good at this"), material processes
> ("I
> > > can
> > > > > >>> pull
> > > > > >>>>> this
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> off")
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> and mental ones ("I get it").
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> (To be continued...but not necessarily by me!)
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> David Kellogg
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Macquarie University
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear xmca'ers,
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> I am excited to announce the next article for
> > discussion,
> > > > > >>> which
> > > > > >>>> is
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> now
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> available open access at the T&F MCA pages<
> > > > > >>>> http://www.tandfonline
> > > > > >>>>> .
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2016.1188962>.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> After a really interesting discussion on Zaza's
> > colourful
> > > > > >>> paper
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> (which
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> still goes on developed into a discussion on micro-
> and
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> ontogenesis),
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> we
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> will from next week be looking at an article by
> > Margaret
> > > > > >>>> Eisenhart
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> and
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen from the special issue on "Reimagining
> > > Science
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Education
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> in
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the Neoliberal Global Context". I think the article,
> as
> > > the
> > > > > >>>> whole
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> issue,
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> offers a very neat example of research trying to tie
> > > > together
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> cultural/economical? and developmental aspects (of
> > > identity
> > > > > in
> > > > > >>>>> this
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> case).
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret has kindly accepted to join the discussion
> > > ?after
> > > > US
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> elections
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> (which will surely keep the attention of many of us
> > > busy).
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Meanwhile, I
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> share the link<http://www.tandfonline.
> > > > > >>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039
> > > > > >>>>>>>>> .
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> 2016.1188962>  to the article (see above), and also
> > > attach
> > > > it
> > > > > >>> as
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> PDF.
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> ??Good read!
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>