[Xmca-l] Please change my email address

Wed Nov 23 08:49:13 PST 2016

Hej

Please could you change the email of my subscription from the present one to
Sharada.Gade@gmail.com<mailto:Sharada.Gade@gmail.com> to which address this mail is also copy to …

I am in-between jobs, yet wish to continue receiving xmca mails and discussion

Regards
Sharada
------------------------------------------------------------
Sharada Gade
Assistant Professor in Mathematics Education,
Umeå Mathematics Education Research Centre,
Department of Science and Mathematics Education,
Linnaeus Väg 41, Umeå University,
901 87 UMEÅ
Sweden

Email: Sharada.Gade@gmail.com<http://mail.com>
Phone: 07382 26025
http://www.ufm.umu.se/om-ufm/personal/visa-person/.cid68430?uid=shga0004&guise=employee78686
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 23 Nov 2016, at 17:21, xmca-l-request@mailman.ucsd.edu<mailto:xmca-l-request@mailman.ucsd.edu> wrote:

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Today's Topics:

  1. Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started (Edward Wall)
  2. Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started (David Kellogg)
  3. Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started
     (Margaret A Eisenhart)
  4. Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started
     (Margaret A Eisenhart)
  5. Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started
     (Margaret A Eisenhart)
  6. Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started
     (Margaret A Eisenhart)
  7. Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started (Huw Lloyd)
  8. Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started (HENRY SHONERD)
  9. Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started (Edward Wall)
 10. Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started (White, Phillip)
 11. Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started (Edward Wall)
 12. Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started
     (Margaret A Eisenhart)
 13. Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started (David Kellogg)
 14.  JoLLE's Fall Issue is LIVE!!! (Peter Smagorinsky)
 15. Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started (White, Phillip)
 16. Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started
     (Alfredo Jornet Gil)
 17. Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started (Huw Lloyd)
 18. Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started
     (Alfredo Jornet Gil)
 19. Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started (Huw Lloyd)
 20.  Butterflies of Zagorsk (mike cole)
 21. Re: Butterflies of Zagorsk (Huw Lloyd)
 22. Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started
     (lpscholar2@gmail.com)
 23. Re: Butterflies of Zagorsk (Wagner Luiz Schmit)
 24. Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started (Edward Wall)
 25. Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started
     (lpscholar2@gmail.com)
 26. Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started (White, Phillip)
 27. Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started (Huw Lloyd)
 28. Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started (HENRY SHONERD)
 29. Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started
     (lpscholar2@gmail.com)
 30. Spiritual blackout in America: Election 2016 - The Boston
     Globe (lpscholar2@gmail.com)
 31. Re: Spiritual blackout in America: Election 2016 - The Boston
     Globe (lpscholar2@gmail.com)
 32. Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started (David Kellogg)
 33. Fwd: [COGDEVSOC] TWO Tenure-track positions in Open Area of
     Psychology, Governors State University (just outside Chicago)
     (mike cole)
 34.  zone of next development (Peter Smagorinsky)
 35. Re: zone of next development (David Kellogg)
 36. Re: zone of next development (Peter Smagorinsky)
 37. Re: zone of next development (Shirin Vossoughi)
 38. Fwd: [COGDEVSOC] Lectureship in 'Culture and Cognition' at
     Durham University (mike cole)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 20:37:03 -0600
From: Edward Wall <ewall@umich.edu>
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <1F325873-EC41-4E1E-82C6-333275137EB9@umich.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

Margaret and Carrie

    Thanks for the article. I hope what I write will be of interest.

     I am presently a mathematics educator (although retired) and have taught mathematics in all the grades into graduate school and well as teachers of preschool, elementary, and secondary mathematics. What you write about authoring math identities resonates !highly! with my experience.

    However, I am unsure what to make of the labeling of neoliberal reform. I see something similar to the young woman you mention at all grade levels including those of graduate school. It seems to have little to do with curricular reform and everything to do with teaching. For example, the Calculus courses you mention are not there to give students a deep understanding of mathematics, but to aid in college acceptance. This, of course, led to parent and student outcry and situation in schools all across the US for high school Calculus (this has been going on for some time) The Calculus AP may have originally been for the purpose of usefully challenging young people, but, in the hands of college admission officers, soon changed into a way to control admission. These courses are usually poorly taught (regardless of where they are taught) because few high school teachers have sufficient training or experience (taking a calculus course does not mean you have the wherewithal to teach it; that takes considerably more knowledge). Math departments do use them for placement, but not because they think students have been well prepared for Calculus.

    Let me give an exemplar (smile).  A number of years ago I was teaching a freshman English course (I know that sounds peculiar) with a significant slant on social justice. One of my students, who seemed (and acted) quite bright, was having problems completing assignments (and seemed a little dismissive of his peers). Finally, I told him that I was going to give him an F. At that point things became interesting. He told me that he had breezed through high school, scored high on the Calculus AP, received a scholarship, and was placed in the second semester of Calculus. The reason work wasn?t done was that he was failing that course in Calculus and was on the verge of losing his scholarship (especially if I failed him). Well, I, of course, extended deadlines, etc. and became a mentor of sorts for the next 4 years.
     All this, as the young woman in your article, pretty much destroyed his confidence/identity and it was not until his junior year that I began to see some slight improvement or, one might say, re-authoring (although the story line had changed considerably; once hoping to be a doctor he is now hoping to be a PA). This is all to the good. However, during his final science course (physics), he decided that he was lacking in geometry and trigonometry and asked for help the summer before and during the relevant semester. I (being retired you have extra time - ha!) did so and found that he was !woefully! lacking relevant skills (this from a student who had scored at the highest level on the Calculus AP).

    My second point is, in a sense, complicated. Maxine Green has a variation of this on page 276 of her book ?Teacher as Stranger.? She tells the story of a teacher who believes in social justice and citizen participation. He is eager for his students to participate in a moratorium in response to the Vietnamese War. However, he has other convictions. ?He does not believe that learning sequences should be whimsically or foolishly interrupted; he thinks classroom activity, because it brings him in contact with his students, contributes measurably to their education. A lost day, as he sees it, might mean a setback for some of his students; missed opportunities for other s? Taking all this in account, he still believes it is more worthwhile to support the peace action than do nothing at all.? This conclusion may seem ?right? and it may seem obvious, but, as Greene continues, it is hardly easy. It is also a little more complicated than she makes out. Say I have a strong commitment to social justice (which I do) and say I have a strong commitment to my discipline (which is mathematics). I could skimp on the mathematics and really focus on social justice, but then I run the risk having students as the above who cannot compete within the present education system. I could skimp on the social justice and really focus on the mathematics, but then I have signaled that social justice really isn?t all that important. So I incorporate social justice into my mathematics class. I could do it two ways: (1) use mathematics as a tool to consider issues of social justice (however, if I do this well, this is not teaching mathematics, but teaching social justice) - this is the usual approach of those who do such things (and I admire their attempts) or (2) use an issue of social justice to illustrate a mathematical principle - this is, quite a bit harder and it is easy to imagine somewhat silly lessons (although not entirely) as integrating the distribution of incomes in the US (there is a nice book that sort of does this called "X in the City?) - this is not, in my opinion, properly attending to issues of social justice. Neither of these approaches, in my opinion, give cognizance to the importance of social justice or mathematics (and, of course, I speak as a person who believes both are important). Ball does not help here (nor Foucault or Butler). The only one who comes close is Kierkegaard. He indicates there may be a way out (although it is not cookie-cutter), but most often one comes to despair.

PS. There is also the whole issue of preparing teachers of mathematics to incorporate social justice in their students' learning especially as more and more Schools of Education eliminate substantial course work in social justice from the required curriculum.

Ed Wall

On Nov 12, 2016, at  2:30 PM, Margaret A Eisenhart <margaret.eisenhart@colorado.edu> wrote:

Hello Everyone,

Carrie and I are newcomers to this list, and we thank you for the
opportunity to engage with you about our article, ?Hollowed Out.?  We also
hope for your patience as we learn to participate in the stream of
thinking here!

Given the comments so far, we are intrigued by others? ideas about the
link between our theory and our data.  On this topic, we would like to
make clear that we did not intend to suggest that the students were making
sense of their lives in the same way that we interpreted them through the
lens of our theory. Our claim is that opportunities and figured worlds are
resources for identity and that the students' words to us reflected
perspectives consistent with neoliberalism, with some pretty serious
implications. Like Phillip White, we are interested in what theories
others would use to explain the data we presented.

Like Mike Cole, we are also intrigued by the prospect of ?exemplars? we
might turn to.

We look forward to hearing your thoughts.

Margaret Eisenhart

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 07:38:12 +1100
From: David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com>
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID:
<CACwG6DtManeOs6E0hOCS8WM7obANG7TqGRhG36Nx0WADimaTdA@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Henry:

I just wrote another unpublishable comparing how Langacker and
Halliday treat tense, and I'm starting to come to grips with the different
theory of experience underlying the two grammars. Langacker somehow sees it
as creating empty mental space (and aspect as creating space within space).
Halliday sees tense as a way of abstracting concrete doings and happenings.
Halliday's tense system is not spatial at all but temporal: it's temporally
deictic and then temporally recursive: a kind of time machine that
simultaneously transports and orients the speaker either proleptically or
retroleptically. So for example if I say to you that this article we are
discussing is going to have been being discussed for two or three weeks
now, then "is going" is a kind of time machine that takes you into the
future, from which "You are Here" vantage point the article has been (past)
being discussed (present). Present in the past in the future.

And that got me thinking about theory and practice. It seems to me that the
they are related, but simultaneously and not sequentially. That is, the
output of one is not the input of the other: they are simply more and less
abstract ways of looking at one and the same thing. So for example in this
article the tasks of theory and practice are one and the same: the task of
theory is really to define as precisely as possible the domain, the scope,
the range of the inquiry into authoring math and science identities and the
task of practice is to ask what exactly you want to do in this
domain/scope/range--to try to understand how they are hollowed out a little
better so that maybe teachers like you and me can help fill the damn
potholes in a little. You can't really do the one without doing the other:
trying to decide the terrain under study without deciding some task that
you want to do there is like imagining tense as empty mental space and not
as some actual, concrete doing or happening. Conversely, the way you dig
the hole depends very much on how big and where you want it.

So there are three kinds of mental spaces in the first part of the article:

a) institutional arrangements (e.g. "priority improvement plans",
career-academy/comprehensive school status STEM tracks, AP classes)
b) figured worlds (e.g. 'good students', and 'don't cares', or what Eckhart
and McConnell-Ginet called 'jocks', 'nerds',  'burnouts', 'gangbangers')
c) authored identities (i.e. what kids say about themselves and what they
think about themselves)

Now, I think it's possible to make this distinction--but they are probably
better understood not as mental spaces (in which case they really do
overlap) but rather as doings (or, as is my wont, sayings). Different
people are saying different things: a) is mostly the sayings of the school
boards and administrators, b) is mostly the sayings of teachers and groups
of kids, and c) is mostly the sayings of individual students. It's always
tempting for a theory to focus on c), because that's where all the data is
and it's tempting for practice too, because if you are against what is
happening in a) and in b), that's where the most likely point of
intervention is.

"But the data does suggest that the "figured worlds" are figured by
authored identities--not by institutional arrangements. Is that just an
artefact of the warm empathy of the authors for the words (although maybe
not the exact wordings) of their subjects, or is it real grounds for hope?

Marx says (beginning of the 18th Brumaire): "*Men make* their own *history*,
*but they* do *not make* it as *they* please; *they* do *not make* it
under self-selected circumstances, *but* under circumstances existing
already, given and transmitted from the *past*. The tradition of all dead
generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living."

It's a good theory, i.e. at once a truth and a tragedy. And it's a
theory treats time as time and not as an empty stage.

David Kellogg
Macquarie University

On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 9:39 AM, HENRY SHONERD <hshonerd@gmail.com> wrote:

All,
I have read only part of Margaret?s and Carrie?s article, but I wanted to
jump in with a reference to a book by Vygotskian Vera John-Steiner and her
mathematician husband Reuben Hersh: Loving and Hating Mathematics:
Challenging the Mathematical Life. Huw?s point (v) which refers to
?identities of independence and finding out sustainable within these
settings (school math classes) spent high school. Vera?s and Reuben?s book
contrasts what it?s like to work and think like a real (working)
mathematician (what I think Huw is talking about) and what we call
mathematics in the classroom. Chapter 8 of the book "The Teaching of
Mathematics: Fierce or Friendly?? is interesting reading and could be
relevant to this discussion.
Henry

On Nov 13, 2016, at 2:47 PM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Margaret

My reading has not been a particularly careful one, so I leave it to
yourselves to judge the usefulness of these points.

i) Whether arguments can be made (for or against) a nebulous term
(neoliberalism) with its political associations, by arguments about
identity that are themselves not deliberately political.

ii) Whether it is better not to focus essentially on the place of
identity.

iii) Whether it is worthwhile contrasting the role/identity of "model
student" with "identities" that anyone excelling at STEM subjects would
relate to.  On this, I would point to the importance with identifying
with
appreciations for "awareness of not knowing" and "eagerness to find out"
(which also entails learning about what it means to know).

iv) Whether you detect that to the degree that an identity is
foregrounded
in the actual practice of STEM work (rather than as background social
appeasement), it is being faked? That is, someone is playing at the role
rather than actually committing themselves to finding out about unknowns.

v) Whether, in fact, there is actually a "tiered" or varied set of
acceptable "identities" within the settings you explored, such that
identities of independence and finding out are sustainable within these
settings, possibly representing a necessary fudge to deal with the
requirements placed upon the institutions.

Best,
Huw

On 12 November 2016 at 20:30, Margaret A Eisenhart <
margaret.eisenhart@colorado.edu> wrote:

Hello Everyone,

Carrie and I are newcomers to this list, and we thank you for the
opportunity to engage with you about our article, ?Hollowed Out.?  We
also
hope for your patience as we learn to participate in the stream of
thinking here!

Given the comments so far, we are intrigued by others? ideas about the
link between our theory and our data.  On this topic, we would like to
make clear that we did not intend to suggest that the students were
making
sense of their lives in the same way that we interpreted them through
the
lens of our theory. Our claim is that opportunities and figured worlds
are
resources for identity and that the students' words to us reflected
perspectives consistent with neoliberalism, with some pretty serious
implications. Like Phillip White, we are interested in what theories
others would use to explain the data we presented.

Like Mike Cole, we are also intrigued by the prospect of ?exemplars? we
might turn to.

We look forward to hearing your thoughts.

Margaret Eisenhart

On 11/11/16, 11:35 AM, "lpscholar2@gmail.com" <lpscholar2@gmail.com>
wrote:

A resumption in exploring the meaning and sense (preferably sens as
this
term draws attention to movement and direction within meaning and
sense)
of this month?s article.
The paper begins with the title and the image of (hollowed-out) meaning
and sense that is impoverished and holds few resources for developing a
deeper sens of identity.
The article concludes with the implication that the work of social
justice within educational institutions is not about improving
educational outcome in neoliberal terms; the implications of the study
are about *reorganizing* the identities ? particulary
identities-with-standind that young people are *exposed* to, can
articulate, and can act on (in school and beyond).

I would say this is taking an ethical stand?.

I will now turn to page 189 and the section (identity-in-context) to
amplify the notion of (cultural imaginary) and (figured worlds).
This imaginary being the site or location of history-in-person. That is
identity is a form of legacy (or *text*) ABOUT the kind of person one
is
or has become in responding to (external) circumstances.
These external circumstances are EXPERIENCED primarily in the
organization of local practices and cultural imaginaries (figured
worlds)
that circulate and *give meaning* (and sens) to local practices

Figured worlds are interpreted following Holland as socially and
culturally *realms of interpretation* and certain players are
recognized
as (exemplars).

As such cultural, social, historical, dialogical psychological
(imaginaries) are handmaidens of the imaginal *giving meaning* to
*what*
goes on in the directions we take together.

Two key terms i highlight are (exemplars) and (direction) we take.
The realm of the ethical turn
What are the markers and signposts emerging in the deeper ethical turn
that offers more than a hollowed-out answer.
Are there any *ghost* stories of exemplars we can turn to as well as
living exemplars? By ghosts i mean ancestors who continue as beacons of
hope exemplifying *who* we are.

My way into exploring the impoverished narratives of the neoliberal
imaginary and reawakening exemplary ancestors or ghosts from their
slumber to help guide us through these multiple imaginaries

Sent from my Windows 10 phone

From: mike cole
Sent: November 9, 2016 3:04 PM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started

Alfredo--

for any who missed the initial article sent out, you might send them
here:

http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/

I am meeting shortly with Bruce. A list of improvements to web site
welcome, although not clear how long they will take to implement.

mike

On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil <
a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
wrote:

Dear all,

last week I announced MCA's 3rd Issue article for discussion:

"Hollowed Out: Meaning and Authoring of High School Math and Science
Identities in the Context of Neoliberal Reform," by Margaret Eisenhart
and
Carrie Allen.

The article is open access and will continue to be so during the
discussion time at this link.

Thanks to everyone who begun the discussion early after I shared the
link
last week, and sorry that we sort of brought the discussion to a halt
until
the authors were ready to discuss. I have now sent Margaret and Carrie
the
posts that were produced then so that they could catch up, but I also
invited them to feel free to move on an introduce themselves as soon
as
they ??wanted.

It is not without some doubts that one introduces a discussion of an
article in a moment that some US media have called as "An American
Tragedy"
and other international editorials are describing as "a dark day for
the
world." But I believe that the paper may indeed offer some grounds for
discuss important issues that are at stake in everyone's home now, as
Mike
recently describes in a touching post on the "local state of mind" and
that
have to do with identity and its connection to a neoliberal
organisation of
the economy. It is not difficult to link neoliberalism to Trump's
phenomenon and how it pervades very intimate aspects of everyday life.

If this was not enough, I think the authors' background on women's
scholar
and professional careers in science is totally relevant to the
discussions
on gendered discourse we've been having. Now without halts, I hope
this
thread gives joys and wisdom to all.

Alfredo
________________________________________
From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.
edu>
on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
Sent: 02 November 2016 01:48
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion

Thanks Mike and everyone! I am sure Margaret (and many of those still
reading) will be happy to be able to catch up when she joins us next
week!
Alfredo
________________________________________
From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.
edu>
on behalf of mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu>
Sent: 02 November 2016 01:32
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion

Gentlemen -- I believe Fernando told us that Margaret would be
able to join this discussion next week. Just a quick glance at the
discussion so far indicates that there is a lot there to wade into
before she has had a word.

I am only part way through the article, expecting to have until next
week
to think about it.

May I suggest your forbearance while this slow-poke tries to catch up!

mike

On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 3:38 PM, White, Phillip
<Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu

wrote:

David & Larry, everyone else ...

by way of introduction, Margaret and Carrie point out that the data
in
this paper emerged through a three year study - which was the
processes
of
how students of color, interested in STEM, responded to the
externally
imposed neoliberal requirements. they framed their study using
theories
of
social practices on how identity developed in context.

David, you reject the theories.  or so i understand your position. as
you
write: It's that the theory

contradicts my own personal theories.

are you also rejecting the data as well?  it seems as if you are
suggesting this when you write: The authors find this point (in the
case
of
Lorena) somewhere between the
beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh grade, but I think
that's just because it's where they are looking.

you reject the narrative of Lorena on the grounds that it could be
traced
back to infancy.

do you also reject the identical narrative found in the adult
practitioners within the context of the high schools?  that this
narrative
is not one of a contemporary neoliberal practice but rather could be
traced
back to, say, the mid 1600's new england colonies, in particular
massachusettes, where the practices of public american education
began?

to explain the data that emerged from the Eisenhart/Allen study, what
theories would you have used?

phillip

________________________________
From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
<xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com <lpscholar2@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2016 7:03 AM
To: David Kellogg; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion

Margaret and Carrie,
Thank you for this wonderful paper that explains the shallow
*hollowed-out* way of forming identity as a form of meaning and
sense. I
will add the French word *sens* which always includes *direction*
within
meaning and sense.

David, your response that what our theory makes sens of depends on
where
we are looking makes sens to me.
You put in question the moment when the interpersonal (you and me)
way of
authoring sens *shifts* or turns to cultural and historical ways of
being
immersed in sens. The article refers to the *historical-in-person*.

My further comment, where I am looking) is in the description of the
sociocultural as a response to *externally changing circumstances*
as
the
process of *learning as becoming* (see page 190).

The article says:

This process is what Lave and Wenger (1991) and other Sociocultural
researchers have referred to as *learning as becoming,* that is,
learning
that occurs as one becomes a certain kind of person in a particular
context.  Identities conceived in this way are not stable or fixed.
As
*external circumstances* affecting a person change, so too may the
identities that are produced *in response*. (Holland & Skinner,
1997).

In this version of *history-in-person* the identity processes that
start
the process moving in a neoliberal *direction* are *external*
circumstances. I am not questioning this version of the importance of
the
external but do question if looking primarily or primordially to the
external circumstances as central if we are not leaving a gap in our
notions of *sens*.

If by looking or highlighting or illuminating the *external* and
highly
visible acts of the actual we are leaving a gap in actual*ity.
A gap in *sens*.

To be continued by others...

Sent from my Windows 10 phone

From: David Kellogg
Sent: October 31, 2016 2:15 PM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion

I was turning Mike's request--for a short explanation of the
Halliday/Vygotsky interface--over in my mind for a few days, unsure
where
to start. I usually decide these difficult "where to start" questions
in
the easiest possible way, with whatever I happen to be working on. In
this
case it's the origins of language in a one year old, a moment which
is
almost as mysterious to me as the origins of life or the Big Bang.
But
perhaps for that very reason it's not a good place to start (the Big
Bang
always seemed to me to jump the gun a bit, not to mention the origins
of
life).

Let me start with the "Hollowed Out" paper Alfredo just thoughtfully
sent
around instead. My first impression is that this paper leaves a
really
big
gap between the data and the conclusions, and that this gap is
largely
filled by theory. Here are some examples of what I mean:

a)    "Whereas 'subject position' is given by society, 'identity' is
self-authored, although it must be recognized by others to be
sustained."
(p. 189)

b)  "It is notable that this construction of a good student, though
familiar, does not make any reference to personal interest,
excitement,
or
engagement in the topics or content-related activities." (193)

c)  "When students' statements such as 'I get it', 'I'm confident',
'I'm
good at this', and  'I can pull this off' are interpreted in the
context
of
the figured world of math or science at the two schools, their
statements
index more than a grade. They reference a meaning system for being
good
in
math or science that includes the actor identity characteristics of
being
able to grasp the subject matter easily, do the work quickly, do it
without
help from others, do it faster than others, and get an A." (193)

In each case, we are told to believe in a theory: "given by society",
"self-authored", "does not make any reference", "the context of the
figured
world". It's not just that in each case the theory seems to go
against
the
data (although it certainly does in places, such as Lowena's views as
a
tenth grader). I can always live with a theory that contradicts my
data:
that's what being a rationalist is all about. It's that the theory
contradicts my own personal theories.

I don't believe that identity is self authored, and I also don't
believe
that subject position is given by society as a whole, I think the
word
"good" does include personal interest, excitement, and engagement as
much
as it includes being able to grasp the subject matter easily, do the
work
quickly, do it without help from others, do it faster than others and
get
an A. To me anyway, the key word in the data given in c) is actually
"I"
and not "it" or "this": the students think they are talking about,
and
therefore probably are actually talking about, a relation between
their
inner states and the activity at hand  or between the activity at
hand
and
the result they get; they are not invoking the figured world of
neoliberal
results and prospects.

But never mind my own theories. Any gap is, after all, a good
opportunity
for theory building. The authors are raising a key issue in both
Vygotsky
and Halliday: when does an interpersonal relation become a
historico-cultural one? That is, when does that 'me" and "you"
relationship
in which I really do have the power to author my identity (I can make
up
any name I want and, within limits, invent my own history,
particularly
if
I am a backpacker) give way to a job, an address, a number and a
class
over
which I have very little power at all? When does the interpersonal
somehow
become an alien ideational "identity" that confronts me like a
strange
ghost when I look in the mirror?

The authors find this point (in the case of Lorena) somewhere between
the
beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh grade, but I think
that's just because it's where they are looking. We can probably find
the
roots of this distinction (between the interpersonal and the
historico-cultural) as far back as we like, right back to (Vygotsky)
the
moment when the child gives up the "self-authored" language at one
and
takes on the language recognized by others and (Halliday) the moment
when
the child distinguishes between Attributive identifying clauses ("I'm
confident", "I'm good at this"), material processes ("I can pull this
off")
and mental ones ("I get it").

(To be continued...but not necessarily by me!)

David Kellogg
Macquarie University

On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil
<a.j.gil@iped.uio.no

wrote:

Dear xmca'ers,

I am excited to announce the next article for discussion, which is
now
available open access at the T&F MCA pages<http://www.tandfonline.
com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2016.1188962>.

After a really interesting discussion on Zaza's colourful paper
(which
still goes on developed into a discussion on micro- and
ontogenesis),
we
will from next week be looking at an article by Margaret Eisenhart
and
Carrie Allen from the special issue on "Reimagining Science
Education
in
the Neoliberal Global Context". I think the article, as the whole
issue,
offers a very neat example of research trying to tie together
cultural/economical? and developmental aspects (of identity in this
case).

Margaret has kindly accepted to join the discussion ?after US
elections
(which will surely keep the attention of many of us busy).
Meanwhile, I
share the link<http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039
.
2016.1188962>  to the article (see above), and also attach it as
PDF.
??Good read!

Alfredo

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 20:56:12 +0000
From: Margaret A Eisenhart <margaret.eisenhart@colorado.edu>
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <D50D746E-9E8A-45DE-92B8-08B650098288@colorado.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Alfredo, you asked: ?is there not something of the same principle of
privilege that runs through neoliberalism in the "standing" thing? Perhaps
it's just my narrow understanding of the term, and of the theory as a
whole, but it seems to me that privilege has something to do here: the
same principle that pushes some classes down pushes them down when they
begin to raise up in performance. Did other students rise up and begun
performing better or moving to a more privileged position as the initially
high-achieving ones begun failing? Is this notion of identity-as-standing
not also within the same larger scheme of somebodies and nobodies??

We think of identity-with-standing as a concept that draws attention to
identities that bring status and prestige in local social and cultural
context and suggest that such identities need to be examined for what they
confer status and prestige on.  In our case, we do not think that what is
conferred is worthwhile, even though it brings some local prestige.  It
was not the case that other students moved up; it was the case that fewer
and fewer students matched the achievement model of this
identity-with-standing.  We don?t think the concept gets us away from
somebodies and nobodies.

Margaret

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 21:03:31 +0000
From: Margaret A Eisenhart <margaret.eisenhart@colorado.edu>
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <BDEB02CF-6A60-4DA1-AAD8-18A5F6EDF20C@colorado.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

David, you posted the following:

On 11/13/16, 2:12 PM, "David Kellogg" <dkellogg60@gmail.com> wrote:

Both of these are on p. 193. But they seem quite different to me. The
first
looks like it was taken from an interview, or rather from three different
interviews, because actually Student 2 and 3 don't seem to be answering
the
same question, and even Student 1 doesn't really talk about what it LOOKS
like to be a good student. But the second looks like an interpretation:
not
something students actually said but something that the researchers
assumed
that they were thinking. Is that a fair reading?

The students in the first set of quotes were responding to the same
interview question, although we reproduced only the portions of their
responses that seemed to bear most directly on the question.  The second
set (in quotes) are the students? own words excerpted from longer
responses and our interpretation of them.

Margaret

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 21:11:32 +0000
From: Margaret A Eisenhart <margaret.eisenhart@colorado.edu>
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <F8398D60-D562-4E47-A843-D1002F1AACB0@colorado.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Thank you for your comments, Huw.  They raise a number of interesting
questions.  Regarding the first one below, we are wondering what you have
in mind as an alternative to identity (in our particular case).  Regarding
the second one below, we don?t think that identities of independence and
finding out are sustainable for most students in this context unless
students have additional resources (outside of classes) for developing
such identities.

Margaret

On 11/13/16, 2:47 PM, "Huw Lloyd" <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> wrote:

ii) Whether it is better not to focus essentially on the place of
identity.

v) Whether, in fact, there is actually a "tiered" or varied set of
acceptable "identities" within the settings you explored, such that
identities of independence and finding out are sustainable within these
settings, possibly representing a necessary fudge to deal with the
requirements placed upon the institutions.

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 21:29:34 +0000
From: Margaret A Eisenhart <margaret.eisenhart@colorado.edu>
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <2AC29B6F-74D6-4351-A782-84863D9E1DE6@colorado.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Ed, Thank you for your comments. I?m afraid I?m not as sanguine as you are
about separating curriculum and teaching.  Yes, there are some very good
teachers who find ways to go beyond the dictates of curriculum reform,
accountability, and college/university requirements. But the pressures to
conform are many and come from multiple directions.  For students such as
those in our study, such teachers are rare and continually pressured to
take on more and more features of the achievement regime. I do not think
we can depend on good teachers alone to solve this problem.

What is Kierkegaard?s approach?

Margaret

On 11/13/16, 7:37 PM, "Edward Wall" <ewall@umich.edu> wrote:

Margaret and Carrie

   Thanks for the article. I hope what I write will be of interest.

    I am presently a mathematics educator (although retired) and have
taught mathematics in all the grades into graduate school and well as
teachers of preschool, elementary, and secondary mathematics. What you
write about authoring math identities resonates !highly! with my
experience.

   However, I am unsure what to make of the labeling of neoliberal
reform. I see something similar to the young woman you mention at all
grade levels including those of graduate school. It seems to have little
to do with curricular reform and everything to do with teaching. For
example, the Calculus courses you mention are not there to give students
a deep understanding of mathematics, but to aid in college acceptance.
This, of course, led to parent and student outcry and situation in
schools all across the US for high school Calculus (this has been going
on for some time) The Calculus AP may have originally been for the
purpose of usefully challenging young people, but, in the hands of
college admission officers, soon changed into a way to control admission.
These courses are usually poorly taught (regardless of where they are
taught) because few high school teachers have sufficient training or
experience (taking a calculus course does not mean you have the
wherewithal to teach it; that takes considerably more knowledge). Math
departments do use them for placement, but not because they think
students have been well prepared for Calculus.

   Let me give an exemplar (smile).  A number of years ago I was
teaching a freshman English course (I know that sounds peculiar) with a
significant slant on social justice. One of my students, who seemed (and
acted) quite bright, was having problems completing assignments (and
seemed a little dismissive of his peers). Finally, I told him that I was
going to give him an F. At that point things became interesting. He told
me that he had breezed through high school, scored high on the Calculus
AP, received a scholarship, and was placed in the second semester of
Calculus. The reason work wasn?t done was that he was failing that course
in Calculus and was on the verge of losing his scholarship (especially if
I failed him). Well, I, of course, extended deadlines, etc. and became a
mentor of sorts for the next 4 years.
    All this, as the young woman in your article, pretty much destroyed
his confidence/identity and it was not until his junior year that I began
to see some slight improvement or, one might say, re-authoring (although
the story line had changed considerably; once hoping to be a doctor he is
now hoping to be a PA). This is all to the good. However, during his
final science course (physics), he decided that he was lacking in
geometry and trigonometry and asked for help the summer before and during
the relevant semester. I (being retired you have extra time - ha!) did so
and found that he was !woefully! lacking relevant skills (this from a
student who had scored at the highest level on the Calculus AP).

   My second point is, in a sense, complicated. Maxine Green has a
variation of this on page 276 of her book ?Teacher as Stranger.? She
tells the story of a teacher who believes in social justice and citizen
participation. He is eager for his students to participate in a
moratorium in response to the Vietnamese War. However, he has other
convictions. ?He does not believe that learning sequences should be
whimsically or foolishly interrupted; he thinks classroom activity,
because it brings him in contact with his students, contributes
measurably to their education. A lost day, as he sees it, might mean a
setback for some of his students; missed opportunities for other s?
Taking all this in account, he still believes it is more worthwhile to
support the peace action than do nothing at all.? This conclusion may
seem ?right? and it may seem obvious, but, as Greene continues, it is
hardly easy. It is also a little more complicated than she makes out. Say
I have a strong commitment to social justice (which I do) and say I have
a strong commitment to my discipline (which is mathematics). I could
skimp on the mathematics and really focus on social justice, but then I
run the risk having students as the above who cannot compete within the
present education system. I could skimp on the social justice and really
focus on the mathematics, but then I have signaled that social justice
really isn?t all that important. So I incorporate social justice into my
mathematics class. I could do it two ways: (1) use mathematics as a tool
to consider issues of social justice (however, if I do this well, this is
not teaching mathematics, but teaching social justice) - this is the
usual approach of those who do such things (and I admire their attempts)
or (2) use an issue of social justice to illustrate a mathematical
principle - this is, quite a bit harder and it is easy to imagine
somewhat silly lessons (although not entirely) as integrating the
distribution of incomes in the US (there is a nice book that sort of does
this called "X in the City?) - this is not, in my opinion, properly
attending to issues of social justice. Neither of these approaches, in my
opinion, give cognizance to the importance of social justice or
mathematics (and, of course, I speak as a person who believes both are
important). Ball does not help here (nor Foucault or Butler). The only
one who comes close is Kierkegaard. He indicates there may be a way out
(although it is not cookie-cutter), but most often one comes to despair.

PS. There is also the whole issue of preparing teachers of mathematics to
incorporate social justice in their students' learning especially as more
and more Schools of Education eliminate substantial course work in social
justice from the required curriculum.

Ed Wall

On Nov 12, 2016, at  2:30 PM, Margaret A Eisenhart
<margaret.eisenhart@colorado.edu> wrote:

Hello Everyone,

Carrie and I are newcomers to this list, and we thank you for the
opportunity to engage with you about our article, ?Hollowed Out.?  We
also
hope for your patience as we learn to participate in the stream of
thinking here!

Given the comments so far, we are intrigued by others? ideas about the
link between our theory and our data.  On this topic, we would like to
make clear that we did not intend to suggest that the students were
making
sense of their lives in the same way that we interpreted them through
the
lens of our theory. Our claim is that opportunities and figured worlds
are
resources for identity and that the students' words to us reflected
perspectives consistent with neoliberalism, with some pretty serious
implications. Like Phillip White, we are interested in what theories
others would use to explain the data we presented.

Like Mike Cole, we are also intrigued by the prospect of ?exemplars? we
might turn to.

We look forward to hearing your thoughts.

Margaret Eisenhart

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 22:24:13 +0000
From: Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID:
<CAG1MBOE07y10piHS=JNaB_U7wM5rPf5pE+XndRSwWCfqSvSVNw@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On 15 November 2016 at 21:11, Margaret A Eisenhart <
margaret.eisenhart@colorado.edu> wrote:

Thank you for your comments, Huw.  They raise a number of interesting
questions.  Regarding the first one below, we are wondering what you have
in mind as an alternative to identity (in our particular case).  Regarding
the second one below, we don?t think that identities of independence and
finding out are sustainable for most students in this context unless
students have additional resources (outside of classes) for developing
such identities.

Margaret

You're welcome, Margaret.  The "not" in point 2 is an edit error carrying
over from point 1.

For point 5 I had in mind a distinction between ways of being/orienting
that the student already has some habituation for vs those that are
fostered locally and whether authentically finding things out on their own
initiative is sustainable within the settings, i.e. whether it is
obstructed (generally I would say this is often the case including higher
ed.)

Best,
Huw

On 11/13/16, 2:47 PM, "Huw Lloyd" <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> wrote:

ii) Whether it is better not to focus essentially on the place of
identity.

v) Whether, in fact, there is actually a "tiered" or varied set of
acceptable "identities" within the settings you explored, such that
identities of independence and finding out are sustainable within these
settings, possibly representing a necessary fudge to deal with the
requirements placed upon the institutions.

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 16:23:37 -0700
From: HENRY SHONERD <hshonerd@gmail.com>
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <5753689B-395F-4239-B435-58A40CAC2526@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

David,
I was puzzled that you found Langacker to be relevant to this topic, but the last paragraph of your post makes an important connection between Langacker and Vygotsky: Both see speech acts as staged?interactants view themselves as ?on stage?. I think the book by Vera and Reuben is largely about how differently math is ?staged? by working mathematicians as contrasted with doing math in school. I think it would be interesting to analyze how natural language and the language of math scaffold each other in both contexts. Word problems have been a well-used way of connecting the two languages; stats and graphs are commonly used in the media to clarify and elaborate text in articles on economics, presidential elections, and what not.

I would love to read your ?unpublishable? on Langacker and Halliday on tense. What I recall from reading Langacker is his interest in ?basic domains?, starting with the temporal and spatial. Somewhere he has said that he believes that the temporal domain is the more basic. As you?d guess, the spatial domain is especially useful in elucidating what he calls ?things? (nouns are conceptually about things); the temporal domain is more closely connected to what he calls ?processes? wherein he analyzes tense and aspect.

I think Langacker would agree that his work in cognitive grammar has a long way to go in contributing to the idea that grammar is usage based, rather than some autonomous module, but he is working on it. I think there is a potential for connecting Halliday and Langacker, though I?m not smart enough to convince you of that evidently. Somehow the connection must be made by staying close to the data, ?thick description? ethnographers are fond of saying. I think the article by Carrie and Margaret is raising this issue.

The ?hollowed out? math curriculum in the article resonates with the ?potholes? you say teachers must watch out for. Some may say that  the hollowing out is typical even of ?elite? K-12 schools. Some may say that this is deliberate. I would say my own experience of math in school was often hollowed out, which I sensed, but didn?t discover until I got to the ?pure math? department in the mid 60s at Univ of Texas at Austin under the leadership of Robert Lee Moore. He is a main protagonist in Chapter 8 of Vera?s and Reuben?s book.

I?ll end it there.

Henry

On Nov 15, 2016, at 1:38 PM, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com> wrote:

Henry: