[Xmca-l] Re: The Semiotic Stance.pdf
Andy Blunden
ablunden@mira.net
Sun Jul 17 17:44:35 PDT 2016
The mirror metaphor, as used by Vygotsky, is very good for
conveying the phantasmic nature of objects of thought, but
the defect with it as a metaphor is that it does not well
convey the fact that these thought-objects are also
effective (and in that specific sense act-ual) in orienting
objective practice. The mirror metaphor needs to be made
more specific, such as with the rear-vision mirror of a car,
where the driver can reliably use the image to reverse,
thereby changing what is reflected, knowing all the while
that there is nothing "in" or behind the mirror (something
my cat has never understood).
Andy
------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Blunden
http://home.mira.net/~andy
http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
On 18/07/2016 2:28 AM, Helena Worthen wrote:
> Let me see if I understand what you’re saying here:
>
> We’re talking here about unlearning, not just learning,
> right? (I have always been intrigued by unlearning, and
> have wondered why we don’t talk much about it.) So, using
> my own background (labor relations) to put in concrete
> examples of what I think you’re describing: An “objective
> element" comes into being after some time passes (example:
> a struggle takes place, followed by an election, and there
> is new leadership which makes new conditions possible).
> But after some more time passes, people take these new
> conditions for granted (example: at City College of San
> Francisco, big union struggles in the 1990s produced much
> improved conditions for faculty; people took these for
> granted, including union leaders, and the union became
> de-mobilized and unprepared for changes in the economy
> after 2000 and attacks which were essentially efforts to
> privatize the college). Faculty continued to have
> “revolutionary spirit” and thought of themselves as in
> control of their work, but the objective elements had
> disappeared. thus they were vulnerable to the 2012 attempt
> by the ACCJC (accreditation commission) to shut the whole
> place down. The good news is that the phantom of activism
> has had its flesh put back on through a major effort of
> internal organizing (and support from student and citizens
> coalition work) and the faculty union has just last week
> pulled off forcing the administration to agree to a decent
> contract — but they had to build towards a one-day strike
> in April, and the credible threat of an open-ended strike
> in the fall, in order to force this to happen.
>
> I think that the image of the candle, the mirror, and the
> reflection, are a nifty way to think about what goes on in
> the teacher (or organizer’s) imagination (another word
> would be “prolepsis.) Then you add the notion of the
> phantom that can become more or less realized — both
> directions is important! - and you can talk about time
> passing and even history.
>
> Fun — Helena
>
>
>> On Jul 16, 2016, at 8:43 PM, Lplarry
>> <lpscholar2@gmail.com <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Helena this phantom that is emerging at the origin of
>> the learning process (can we describe this process as
>> potential?) this phantom may move into being a concrete
>> **thing** but then it may return to being a phantom?.
>>
>> In the IRECE Journal one of the articles (Qualitative
>> Epistemology) references Gonzales Rey who was inspired by
>> Vygotsky and Rubinstein. Here is his description of what
>> may occur after objective objects/elements which come
>> into being at a later turn in the spiral than you are
>> referencing, then **disappear**. The objects which have
>> defined a new order actually disappear, but in the
>> imaginary **remain**, continuing to subsidize the
>> subjective **sense** of that disappearing order.
>>
>> Can we call this subjective imaginary a **phantom** that
>> continues to **legitimize** this imaginary sense of
>> objective elements when there is actually no remaining
>> objective elements (which have disappeared).
>>
>> In Rey’s own words; “The objective elements that produce
>> the revolutionary spirit can be killed by the processes
>> of institutionalization and bureaucratization, but people
>> still (feel) part of the revolution – for a few generations.
>>
>> Note, this phenomena is inter/generational in duration.
>>
>> This seems to be an image of psyche emerging from phantom
>> appearances, becoming existent and then becoming
>> symbolized but at some moment the revolutionary spirit
>> **disappears** and what remains are imaginary phantoms.
>>
>> Adding my own reflections are these revolutionary spirits
>> that have disappeared, are they **dormant** or **dead**.
>> Can their spirit be **reawakened** or is that a phantom?
>>
>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone
>>
>> *From: *Helena Worthen <mailto:helenaworthen@gmail.com>
>> *Sent: *July 16, 2016 7:02 PM
>> *To: *ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>;
>> eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: The Semiotic Stance.pdf
>>
>> OK — from Andy’s link:
>>
>> "When we know the thing and the laws of reflection of
>> light, we can always explain, predict, elicit, and change
>> the phantom.”
>>
>> How about this: the thing is what the teacher wants the
>> student to learn. By understanding how people learn (the
>> laws of reflection of light), the teacher can explain,
>> predict, elicit and change what the student learns (the
>> phantom).
>>
>> I like thinking of what the learner learns as a phantom.
>> It certainly feels like a phantom at the beginning of a
>> class and gets more flesh on it as the weeks go by, but
>> is still a phantom at the end of the semester, although
>> hopefully a different-looking phantom.
>>
>> Helena
>>
>> > On Jul 2, 2016, at 10:33 PM, Andy Blunden
>> <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>> https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri13.htm#p1387
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> > Andy Blunden
>>
>> > http://home.mira.net/~andy <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
>>
>> >
>> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
>>
>>
>> > On 3/07/2016 3:19 PM, greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
>> <mailto:greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> M...
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >> And can you remind us of the candle in the mirror
>> metaphor?
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >> Greg
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >>> On Jul 3, 2016, at 12:02 PM, Martin John Packer
>> <mpacker@uniandes.edu.co
>> <mailto:mpacker@uniandes.edu.co>> wrote:
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>> I think that’s a fair comment, Larry. It must appear
>> that I’m being inconsistent introducing gods after being
>> so hard on Michael for invoking intelligent design. But,
>> while I want to follow Latour (and Viveiros de Castro) in
>> arguing that there are multiple ontologies, many ways of
>> existing, in which case mind can be said to exist in the
>> ontology of Western folk psychology, I also want to
>> insist that the ontology of a scientific psychology has
>> to be consistent and non-contradictory, which means it
>> must be non-dualist. No mind in a scientific psychology
>> (except as an appearance to be explained, like a candle
>> seemingly ‘behind’ a mirror), and no god either.
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>> Martin
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>>> On Jul 2, 2016, at 8:51 PM, Lplarry
>> <lpscholar2@gmail.com <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> >>>>
>>
>> >>>> Greg,
>>
>> >>>> This shift in the relationship between (mind) and
>> (meaning) towards meaning being primordial or primary and
>> mind arising as one particular way of imagining meaning
>> seems to be a radical shift in ways of approaching or
>> orienting towards (mind) as an object.
>>
>> >>>> Mind becomes one way of imaging and diagramming, and
>> symbolizing (meaning potential) in other words -mind as
>> object.
>>
>> >>>> As Martin says, this may be *fictional* but is
>> *real* in a way similar to God being *real* in particular
>> traditions.
>>
>> >>>>
>>
>> >>>>
>>
>> >>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone
>>
>> >>>>
>>
>> >>>> From: Greg Thompson
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >
>>
>
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