[Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help

Fri Jul 8 07:02:26 PDT 2016

I think I would go to the BBC for reliable information a 
long time before I resorted to ANY American source, Michael.

Just take 10 minutes to read.

Andy

------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Blunden
http://home.mira.net/~andy
http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making 

On 9/07/2016 12:00 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote:
> The BBC seems somewhat an ironic source for ethics - especially with everything that is happening in Britain right now what withthe Chitcotte report (sp?) and the Brexit, where BBC played no small part.
>
> But I thought habit was actually the nub of the current debate on ethics - especially virtues ethicists vs. the communitarians.  Didn't McIntyre argue in AFTER VIRTUE that virtue ethicists had destroyed the role of ethics by focusing on it as a deontological enterprise (that damn Kant again).  That perhaps we were better off taking our ethics from habit because it gave us a social base. Something we could follow with true cause, something to trust in rather than something to aspire to - a branch of what Annalisa refers to as normative ethics.  I guess McIntyre does not consider himself a communitarian but he makes an argument.
>
> We are going through an intense crisis in ethics here is the United States that just got raised four or five notches last night.  I fear the role that proclamations of virtue will play in the days of head, yet I can't think of any other road out of this dark time.
>
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden
> Sent: Friday, July 08, 2016 8:19 AM
> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Appeal for help
>
> Perhaps xmca could take a break from discussing Ethics while everyone studies
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/introduction/
>
> Andy
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Andy Blunden
> http://home.mira.net/~andy
> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
>
> On 8/07/2016 10:03 PM, Jonathan Tudge wrote:
>> I think that virtue ethicists influenced by Aristotle would be
>> cautious about linking virtues and habits. A habit may be simply
>> rule-governed.  For example, I follow the rule to always say "thank
>> you" when given a gift and always give, in return, a gift of equal
>> value, but I do so without understanding why I should express thanks.
>> I can hardly be said to have the virtue of gratitude.  That's why
>> neo-Aristotelians invoke the concept of phronesis, or practical
>> wisdom.  I have to understand the meaning of expressing thanks and
>> engaging in grateful behaviour, as well as doing it on a regular basis (when appropriate), and that comes with experience.
>>
>> In case anyone's interested, fuller thoughts on this issue appear in
>> Tudge, Freitas, & O'Brien (2015). The virtue of gratitude: A
>> developmental and cultural approach. * Human Development, 58*, 281-300.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Jon
>>
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> Jonathan Tudge
>>
>> Professor
>> Office: 155 Stone
>>
>> http://morethanthanks.wp.uncg.edu/
>>
>> Mailing address:
>> 248 Stone Building
>> Department of Human Development and Family Studies PO Box 26170 The
>> University of North Carolina at Greensboro Greensboro, NC 27402-6170
>> USA
>>
>> phone (336) 223-6181
>> fax   (336) 334-5076
>>
>> http://www.uncg.edu/hdf/facultystaff/Tudge/Tudge.html
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 11:30 PM, Greg Thompson
>> <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Anyone have suggestions of writings on ethics from a CHAT perspective?
>>>
>>> Also, I was quite taken by Annalisa's linking ethics to "habit"
>>> precisely because this is the way that I would like to construe
>>> ethics - embodied habits/dispositions (person X habitually responds
>>> to a particular type of situation with behavior Y). To say anything
>>> more requires invoking one ethical framework or another (and even my
>>> definition does this since the construal of "a particular type of
>>> situation" as such necessarily already invokes cultural
>>> meaningfulnesses that are also likely to entail ethical frameworks).
>>>
>>> -greg
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 10:52 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> ... and this is really not the forum for clarifying these issues of
>>>> Ethics, honestly.
>>>>
>>>> Andy
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Andy Blunden
>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy
>>>> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-makin
>>>> g On 8/07/2016 11:36 AM, Christopher Schuck wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Much of this last interchange seems to be as much about meta-ethics
>>>>> as normative ethics. Andy chooses to identify ethics with human
>>>>> activity in terms of practical norms (and some epistemologists
>>>>> argue that practical reason is inherently normative). Others might
>>>>> see it more in terms of "ideal good" (as Annalisa put it). If we're
>>>>> discussing how ethics is to even be conceptualized and approached
>>>>> (e.g. questioning dichotomies of "good" and "evil", whether a
>>>>> priori or a posteriori is relevant, virtues as opposed to
>>>>> criterion-based consequentialism) - we're getting into meta-ethics.
>>>>> For what that's worth.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 9:18 PM, Annalisa Aguilar <annalisa@unm.edu>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Andy,
>>>>>> So you are describing Normative Ethics, not Ethics.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Interestingly, "ethics" does derive from the Greek word for "habit"
>>>>>> (????).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A habit seems to have a lack of awareness in it. Certainly habits
>>>>>> are hard to break, which is why we hope to have good habits, not
>>>>>> bad ones.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Unless you would like to define what you mean by "Practical norms"
>>>>>> it seems to be an "amoral" phrase to me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Typically, as I understand it, ethics is the study of human
>>>>>> morality in the attempt to define what is good and right, vs. not
>>>>>> good and not
>>> right
>>>>>> so
>>>>>> one can determine what is proper actions to live by (what habits
>>>>>> are worth having). I consider that to be a consideration of values
>>>>>> a priori. In terms of what is ideal or hypothetical.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Normative ethics seems to be a study of actions a posteriori,
>>>>>> after the fact.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please note that I do not like to use the terms "evil" or "wrong"
>>>>>> and prefer to orient from the relations of what is good and what is right.
>>>>>> This
>>>>>> avoids dichotomies, and it allows for a spectrum of something
>>>>>> being
>>> more
>>>>>> right, or having more goodness than something else.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Getting back to utilitarianism, I still see it as a justification
>>>>>> for economics, that is, economics as practiced today, which is
>>>>>> usually not done scientifically, though it is very mathematical in
>>>>>> nature. To measure utility requires all kinds of strange formulae,
>>>>>> and that's why I used
>>> the
>>>>>> metaphor hall of mirrors.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Still, I prefer to consider utility as a projection, than a reflection.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Eating humans has a projected value of goodness in one society,
>>>>>> but not in another.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not harming myself or others seems to have a universal
>>>>>> application, and so it doesn't seem to be a projected subjective
>>>>>> value, but a reflected
>>> one,
>>>>>> if
>>>>>> I may claim that a projected value is relative and subjective
>>>>>> while a reflected one is a universal, objective value.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Happiness is also a universal, objective value. I don't know
>>>>>> anyone who doesn't value happiness. However what makes people
>>>>>> happy is a
>>> projected,
>>>>>> subjective value. That's where utility comes in.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For what that is worth.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Annalisa
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>> --
>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>>> Assistant Professor
>>> Department of Anthropology
>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
>>> Brigham Young University
>>> Provo, UT 84602
>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
>>>