[Xmca-l] Re: Zukerman resumed

[Huw Lloyd]

For anyone who has been contemplating the two areas of interest I have been
questioning (orientation vs acted role with respect to 'voice'; peers vs
teacher focused collaboration) Galina's paper "Child–Adult Interaction That
Creates a Zone of Proximal Development" (2007, JREEP 45:3) provides some
(supportive) elaboration (p. 49 & 51).

I have a minor quibble with perhaps an inadvertent presentation of
traditional education as constituting an educational choice as path of
development (p.62).  This, to my mind, undermines a technical consideration
of development with respect to re-organisations that are made possible
through the student's initiative.  I would not call a process that expands
and becomes more efficient, but that doesn't reorganise, a developmental
process in the spirit of developmental education.  On this basis, I would
also consider it to be a surprising outcome that a traditionally
educational process could move much beyond the inculcation of formal logic,
because richer logics entail construed relations that I believe would be
difficult to arrive at (i.e. understand) without a student's own initiative.

Best,
Huw

On 21 December 2016 at 21:04, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:

> Here is Galina's reply to the discussion before David's, Huw's and Larry's
> notes. I do not vouch for a couple of parts of the translation. Its the
> best that I could manage. The quotation from Buber in particular is just
> back translation.
>
> Happy winter Soltice, Galina!
>
> mike
> .........................
> You raise immediately a lot of important issues, each of which requires
> unhurried reflection. Let me start with my favorite issues --- the idea in
> normal development no age period ceases to exist. This is not my idea, I
> received it as a gift from the great Erik Erikson, who wrote that no age
> crisis should be resolved definitively, that the problem of each crisis,
> the main choice at every age -- is [really] the work of a lifetime, and it
> is this work helps any normally developing person to continue his/her own
> movements himself, the search for oneself. [Not sure or translation here! -
> MC
>
> Yes, Mike, of course «What does an" independent "human organism possibly
> mean when any state of independence is really a state of" suppressed
> "INTER-dependencies. <...> Is not independence just what, in context, we
> attribute to particular forms of interdependence? We are always dealing
> with relations, most proximally relations between human beings and between
> human beings interacting as part of their local ecology.
>
> However, this understanding of oneself as a being woven from human
> relations, co-created in these relations and creatomg these very relations
> is complicated by the creative idea of the uniqueness and intrinsic value
> of the human "I" that is, to my taste, was best expressed by Martin Buber:
>
> Rabbi Zusya, before his death said: "In the world to come will they ask
> me, why didnt you become Moses? Will they ask me, ' why you were not Zeus'?"
>
> The same idea was expressed by Buber greater detail, but vaguely:
>  "Each of us has to follow their own path, to open something that belongs
> only to him, to do what no one before him did not commit. Each person
> brings to the world something new, something unique and unprecedented.
> Everyone in Israel must know and remember that he is the only one of its
> kind, because he has no equal in the world. After all, if not so, and I
> would have been here exactly the kind of person you would not need it in
> the world, and therefore he would not be born here at this time. This
> unique one has to bring to perfection. For as long as there is this, and
> postponed the coming of the Messiah ... (Martin Buber. Human Path)
>
> So, we are again confronted with the contradictions of the relations of
> together and and individually. But now I'm not talking about the beginning
> point, the birth of human ability, but of the directions of this
> development. And with this turn of thought proper scientific perspective
> merges with the deeply personal, existential. As in Alfredo's meditation:
> «The power of being mindful to the irreducibly unity of the inter- and the
> intra- at every step is that, when I approach an other, I may wonder not
> how can I change (teach?) Her or him, but how can I change US. This may
> seem obvious, yet it does not come automatically; there is (reflective!)
> work to be done. »
>
>
> Congratulations to all on today's holiday - the winter solstice: the
> planet has turned back to the light!
>
> With thanks,
> Galina
>
> On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 9:19 AM, <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Mike, Huw, Galina,
>> The schematization i developed was by following Galina’s reasoning of the
>> meaning of (independence).
>> Mike, your focus on the SUPPRESSION of the actuality of inter-dependence
>> in all notions of (independence) as background context seems to lie at the
>> heart of Galina’s article. In my reading her article i imagine her
>> RE-treiving this essential truth that (independence) is actually
>> suppressing the truth of OUR inter-dependence. (intermental).
>>
>> This inter-dependence includes the proximal events (microgenesis) and
>> also i  read the article as endorsing the inter-dependence of the four
>> lines of development that interweave within ENDURING relationships that she
>> calls (merging) but i prefer the term (overlapping) relations. Overlapping
>> lines of development indicate all four lines remain distinct needs or
>> desires in ongoing social situations of development. Galina’s article
>> articulates the careful approach required to honour all four distinct
>> inter-dependent lines of development.There seems to be a back and forth
>> movement, an ongoing RE-TREIVAL in the sense of the mobius strip. Now
>> different theories/models seem to emphasize or prioritize one or the other
>> lines of development as being  central as a person (independently) is
>> enlisting learning collaboration (communication/joint action/ forms of
>> interaction).  Developing the ability to learn as a subject of learning can
>> be elaborated within each distinct line of development that together
>> -interdependently – overlap. As Galina emphasizes the development of
>> *trust* as inter-dependence requires honouring all four lines of
>> development as they *emerge* in our ongoing relations.
>>
>> Shifting focus to Huw’s addition, introduces another aspect -the priority
>> of the image- to this overlapping ontogenetic inter-depence playing out in
>> our microgenetic proximal relations. The dialogues are *about* the image
>> (as prior).
>>
>> By staying in the slow lane i am bracketing or suppressing the fourth
>> line of development in order to light up the three previous developing
>> lines that the child carries into the classroom on the 1st day of school.
>> If we move too quickly to the fourth line of development we may suppress
>> the vitality and aliveness of the other 3 lines of development. When this
>> happens it becomes necessary to RE -trieve what has been suppressed
>> (withdrawn).
>> The image of the crab manor mobius strip is an image of back and forth
>> RE-trieval and re-suming (lighting up) kinds of independent learning
>> development in place prior to arrival on the 1st day of school.
>> Establishing this actuality is the gift and message that Galina’s article
>> articulates and lays out clearly for her readers to understand (grounding).
>>
>> Moving slowly, back and forth, musically. Merleau-ponty’s image is the
>> mobius strip (singing) the world. Re-turning, re-trieving, re-suming, are
>> images played out in Galina’s exploration of learning the ability to learn
>> as a fourth line of development which requires and makes place (honours)
>> the inter-dependence of the three previous developing lines of development.
>>
>> Galina mentions that when we collapse or suppress the prior three lines
>> of development in schooling situations, emphasizing  just reading, writing,
>> content subjects and the fourth line of development we generate (school
>> neurosis).
>>
>>
>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone
>>
>> From: Huw Lloyd
>> Sent: December 20, 2016 8:17 PM
>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> Cc: Galina Zuckerman
>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zukerman resumed
>>
>> An appropriate remark here, perhaps, is that the use of language and the
>> logical mode of expression may all be beneficially bracketed.
>>  "Independent" is valid and useful in the context of a distinction made
>> using formal logic applied to appearances. Yet it is less appropriate when
>> construing phenomena genetically (because 'independent' in this sense
>> merely locates where certain aspects of historically distributed situated
>> activity are housed).  But when I assert that "Galina's student dialogues
>> are special kinds of dialogues different to that of conventional
>> understandings of classroom dialogue", I am making a hierarchical
>> (specialisation) distinction (due to the additional constraints) using
>> formal logic about a platform that is considered as a key contribution
>> towards a genetically conceived mode of collaboration and development. In
>> other words, I use formal logic to point out aspects of genetic logic.
>>
>> I say that language may be bracketed too because an important raw material
>> of interest is the image that stems from the orientation to problems
>> (which
>> the dialogues are about) -- effectively the same sort of thing (but more
>> complex) that arises as an after-image from looking at a bright light. I
>> suspect this may be a problem for linguaphiles, because they may have
>> acquired a predilection for jumping on any unclothed thought (image) and
>> dressing it up in words prior to admitting it to consciousness.  A key
>> point of real problem-oriented activity is the disciplining, organising,
>> and attendance to this image formation and its gentle coaxing
>> (imagination)
>> which is structured by a genuine encounter with a problem and not merely a
>> verbalised problem. In more mature forms imagination can take on the
>> structure of a relational space that is navigated.  Without this
>> discipline, all one can really do is associate, "oh, this reminds of x"
>> etc
>> or fashion things upon the basis of attributes, in which there is little
>> distinction between unicorns and rhinos.
>>
>> To access this imagination all one really needs to do is to contemplate a
>> complex (multi-dimensional) action -- one which requires weighing up,
>> balancing or finding a way through. The dialogue and its special rules
>> help
>> to magnify that process and make it available for reflection.
>>
>> Best,
>> Huw
>>
>>
>> On 20 December 2016 at 17:38, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>>
>> > Nicely said, Henry.
>> >
>> > As schematized in your note, Larry, the use of the word, "independent"
>> > struck me rather forcefully.
>> >
>> > What does an "independent" human organism possibly mean when any state
>> of
>> > independence is really a state of "suppressed" INTER-dependencies. No
>> > (wo)man is an island is literally true. Or non-existence.
>> >
>> > Isn't independence just what, in context, we attribute to particular
>> forms
>> > of interdependence?  We are always dealing with relations, most
>> proximally
>> > relations between human beings and between human beings interacting as
>> part
>> > of their local ecology.
>> >
>> > Anyway, the notion of independent seems to need bracketing.
>> >
>> > mike
>> >
>> > On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 2:04 PM, HENRY SHONERD <hshonerd@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Check this out:
>> > >
>> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmqLFZISvfA <https://www.youtube.com/
>> > > watch?v=FmqLFZISvfA>
>> > >
>> > > This mobius metaphor came up some time ago on the chat. Most of us,
>> > myself
>> > > included, wouldn’t have heard and visualized Bach’s Crab Cannon as a
>> > mobius
>> > > strip, but it sure works as music. In the same way discourse wouldn’t
>> be
>> > > (consciously) heard that way either. Yet every dialog “looks" both
>> > forward
>> > > and backward at every moment, reprising/elaborating on previous turns,
>> > > anticipating future turns.
>> > >
>> > > Henry
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > > On Dec 19, 2016, at 12:42 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil <
>> a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
>> > > wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > Oh, I am so glad that this conversation is going on! Thanks Larry
>> for
>> > > your sustained effort to keep it going, to Mike for bringing the
>> author
>> > in,
>> > > and to professor Zuckerman for being so generous to join us.
>> > > >
>> > > > For those of you who, like me, had to go and do a search to see
>> what a
>> > > Mobius Strip was, see an illustration in this youtube video:
>> > > >
>> > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVsIAa2XNKc
>> > > >
>> > > > I really liked the analogy, because any single action on the strip
>> has
>> > > effects that manifest distinctly, yet as a unity, in each side of the
>> > > strip, which very nicely illustrates how one single fact (that of
>> social
>> > > life) manifests both, and yet inherently united within a
>> self-developing
>> > > whole, as the individual and as the social.
>> > > >
>> > > > I would also like to add two articles by F. T. Mikhailov, who writes
>> > > about inter-intrasubjectivity, and speaks of purposively volitional
>> > action
>> > > and freedom (which I think is, at the end of the day, the heart of the
>> > > reflection that professor Zuckerman's chapter speaks about) as "a
>> single
>> > > intra- and intersubjective affect of humane co-being." Mikhailov's
>> > approach
>> > > in these papers is much less empirical, yet I think adds value and a
>> > > beautifully inspiring lenses to approach not only the empirical
>> questions
>> > > that raise in our research, when we try to theorise and provide
>> answers
>> > to
>> > > general questions on [teaching-learning] and development, but also to
>> our
>> > > everyday being together with others, with my children and partner at
>> > home,
>> > > with other teachers and children at the elementary school where I am
>> > > working, etc... I think the power of being mindful to the irreducibly
>> > unity
>> > > of the inter- and the intra- at every step is that, when I approach an
>> > > other, I may wonder not how can I change (teach?) her or him, but how
>> > can I
>> > > change US. This may seem obvious, yet it does not come automatically;
>> > there
>> > > is (reflective!) work to be done.
>> > > >
>> > > > Alfredo
>> > > >
>> > > > ________________________________________
>> > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <
>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>> > >
>> > > on behalf of mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu>
>> > > > Sent: 19 December 2016 17:48
>> > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> > > > Cc: Galina Zuckerman
>> > > > Subject: [Xmca-l]  Fwd:  Zukerman resumed
>> > > >
>> > > > Dear Colleagues-- Here is a response to Larry's note of a few days
>> ago
>> > > from
>> > > > Galina Zuckerman. I will send along a copy of the Gordon's paper.
>> > > Original
>> > > > message below.
>> > > >
>> > > > mike
>> > > > ----------------
>> > > > I am extremely grateful to you and your colleagues for talking about
>> > > > interpsychic action. This is a difficult conversation, so let us
>> move
>> > > > slowly. Today, I will answer only one fragment of the note from that
>> > > > wonderful co-conversationalist (I do not dare call him simply by the
>> > name
>> > > > of Larry - it's too familiar for Russian-speaking people).
>> > > >
>> > > > "The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons
>> > > > actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and
>> seems
>> > to
>> > > > put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one’s own
>> > > > interiorized mental activity."
>> > > >
>> > > > Yes! Yes!!! However, is there any sense in raising the question of
>> what
>> > > is
>> > > > more important - interpsychic or intra-psychic? What's more
>> important
>> > for
>> > > > walking - movement of the left or right foot? Those cultural means
>> > which
>> > > I
>> > > > have already mastered are the primary conditions to enter the new
>> > > > interpsychic space that was closed to me before I have mastered a
>> new
>> > > > cultural means...
>> > > >
>> > > > Also, there is no point in the question of what comes first -
>> > > interpsychic
>> > > > or intrapsychic. In order to join the interpsychic action to meet a
>> > > > partner, I should have some margin of autonomy, initiative ...
>> > > >
>> > > > The Mobius strip is the best symbol of the relationship of INTER and
>> > > INTRA
>> > > > in the development process, in which there is always a moment of
>> > > > SELF-development.
>> > > >
>> > > > I'm afraid to say more because I have not read neither the latest
>> work
>> > of
>> > > > Gordon Wells' work, nor his work "The complimentary contributions of
>> > > > Halliday and Vygotsky to a Language Based Theory of Learning,
>> 1994." If
>> > > you
>> > > > can send me a text, please do !!! I owe so much to this talented
>> > author;
>> > > > His book Dialogic inquiry opened for me new ways of research.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> > > > From: Galina Zuckerman <galina.zuckerman@gmail.com>
>> > > > Date: 2016-12-19 4:55 GMT-08:00
>> > > > Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Zukerman resumed
>> > > > To: mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu>
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Дорогой Майк!
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Я чрезвычайно благодарна Вам и Вашим коллегам за разговор об
>> > > > интерпсихическом действии. Это трудный разговор, поэтому давайте
>> > > двигаться
>> > > > неторопливо. Сегодня я отвечу лишь на одну реплику замечательного
>> > > > собеседника (не решаюсь называть его просто по имени Larry – для
>> > > > русскоязычного человека это слишком фамильярно).
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons
>> > > > actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and
>> seems
>> > to
>> > > > put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one’s own
>> > > > interiorized mental activity.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Да! Да!!! Однако есть ли смысл в постановке вопроса о том, что
>> важнее –
>> > > > интерпсихическое или интрапсихическое? Что важнее для ходьбы –
>> движение
>> > > > левой или правой ноги? Те культурные средства, которые я уже
>> освоила,
>> > > это в
>> > > > первую очередь условие вступить в новое интерпсихическое
>> пространство,
>> > > > которое было для меня закрыто до того, как я освоила новое
>> культурное
>> > > > средство…
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Также нет смысла в вопросе о том, что первично - интерпсихическое
>> или
>> > > > интрапсихическое. Для того чтобы присоединиться к интерпсихическому
>> > > > действию, чтобы встретиться с партнером, я должна обладать каким-то
>> > > запасом
>> > > > самостоятельности, инициативности…
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Лента Мёбиуса – лучший символ отношения ИНТЕР и ИНТРА в процессе
>> > > развития,
>> > > > в котором всегда присутствует момент САМОразвития.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Боюсь двигаться дальше, так как не читала ни последних работ Гордона
>> > > > Уэллса, ни его работу The complimentary contributions of Halliday
>> and
>> > > > Vygotsky to a Language Based Theory of Learning, 1994. Если можно,
>> > > пришлите
>> > > > мне текст, пожалуйста!!! Я очень многим обязана этому талантливому
>> > > автору;
>> > > > его книга *Dialogic* *inquiry* открыла для меня новые пути
>> > исследования.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Не знаю, упрощу или усложню дальнейшее обсуждение, но не могу не
>> > > сослаться
>> > > > на новую работу Бориса Эльконина (см. приложение).
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Всего самого-самого доброго!
>> > > >
>> > > > Галя Цукерман
>> > > >
>> > > > On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 10:48 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > >> Dear Galina -- This is a serious response to your work and it
>> would be
>> > > >> great if you could find time to respond, at least the first part
>> where
>> > > Larry
>> > > >> tries to summarize your view of the intermental. He is trying to be
>> > > >> helpful and build on what people are writing, and some help from
>> you
>> > > would
>> > > >> move the whole discussion along. We will worry about translation at
>> > this
>> > > >> end......
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Bud' zdorova
>> > > >>
>> > > >> mike
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> mike
>> > > >> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> > > >> From: <lpscholar2@gmail.com>
>> > > >> Date: Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 11:28 AM
>> > > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Zukerman resumed
>> > > >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons
>> > > >> actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and
>> seems
>> > to
>> > > >> put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one’s own
>> > > >> interiorized mental activity. Am i misreading this emphasis in the
>> > > article.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Is this understanding of (intermental) that prioritizes dialogical
>> > > >> activity with the other a different focus than the emphasis that
>> > Gordon
>> > > >> Wells puts on the dual aspects of the language system as BOTH
>> > > >> *a mediation of social activity by enabling participants to plan
>> and
>> > > >> coordinate and review their actions through EXTERNAL speech
>> > > >>
>> > > >> AND in addition language as
>> > > >> *a medium in which those  above activities are SYMBOLICALLY
>> > REPRESENTED,
>> > > >> providing the psychological sign/tool that mediates the associated
>> > ideal
>> > > >> mental activities in the internal discourse of inner speech.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> This shift or crossing over from priority given to the actual
>> physical
>> > > >> discourse using language (the tool of tools -metatool) to priority
>> > > given to
>> > > >> the SYMBOLICALLY represented realm seems to be a key or hinge
>> moment
>> > > within
>> > > >> the dual nature of language as both external and interior.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Reading the Zukerman article and the focus on the (intermental) all
>> > the
>> > > >> way down seems to put a different slant or incline to what Gordon
>> > Wells
>> > > is
>> > > >> exploring.
>> > > >> My turn is up, but i could reference examples from the Zukerman
>> > article
>> > > on
>> > > >> the priority of the (intermental)
>> > > >>
>> > > >> For those interested i could send another article by Gordon Wells
>> (The
>> > > >> complimentary contributions of Halliday and Vygotsky to a Language
>> > Based
>> > > >> Theory of Learning, 1994)
>> > > >> Loose threads being picked up
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Sent from my Windows 10 phone
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > > <Mikhailov 2004 Object Oriented Activity Whose.pdf><Mikhailov 2006
>> > > Problems of the Method of Cultural Historical Psychology.pdf>
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
>>
>