[Xmca-l] Fwd: Zukerman resumed

[mike cole]

Dear Colleagues-- Here is a response to Larry's note of a few days ago from
Galina Zuckerman. I will send along a copy of the Gordon's paper. Original
message below.

mike
----------------
I am extremely grateful to you and your colleagues for talking about
interpsychic action. This is a difficult conversation, so let us move
slowly. Today, I will answer only one fragment of the note from that
wonderful co-conversationalist (I do not dare call him simply by the name
of Larry - it's too familiar for Russian-speaking people).

"The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons
 actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and seems to
put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one’s own
interiorized mental activity."

Yes! Yes!!! However, is there any sense in raising the question of what is
more important - interpsychic or intra-psychic? What's more important for
walking - movement of the left or right foot? Those cultural means which I
have already mastered are the primary conditions to enter the new
interpsychic space that was closed to me before I have mastered a new
cultural means...

Also, there is no point in the question of what comes first - interpsychic
or intrapsychic. In order to join the interpsychic action to meet a
partner, I should have some margin of autonomy, initiative ...

The Mobius strip is the best symbol of the relationship of INTER and INTRA
in the development process, in which there is always a moment of
SELF-development.

I'm afraid to say more because I have not read neither the latest work of
Gordon Wells' work, nor his work "The complimentary contributions of
Halliday and Vygotsky to a Language Based Theory of Learning, 1994." If you
can send me a text, please do !!! I owe so much to this talented author;
His book Dialogic inquiry opened for me new ways of research.



---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Galina Zuckerman <galina.zuckerman@gmail.com>
Date: 2016-12-19 4:55 GMT-08:00
Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Zukerman resumed
To: mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu>


Дорогой Майк!


Я чрезвычайно благодарна Вам и Вашим коллегам за разговор об
интерпсихическом действии. Это трудный разговор, поэтому давайте двигаться
неторопливо. Сегодня я отвечу лишь на одну реплику замечательного
собеседника (не решаюсь называть его просто по имени Larry – для
русскоязычного человека это слишком фамильярно).


The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons
actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and seems to
put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one’s own
interiorized mental activity.


Да! Да!!! Однако есть ли смысл в постановке вопроса о том, что важнее –
интерпсихическое или интрапсихическое? Что важнее для ходьбы – движение
левой или правой ноги? Те культурные средства, которые я уже освоила, это в
первую очередь условие вступить в новое интерпсихическое пространство,
которое было для меня закрыто до того, как я освоила новое культурное
средство…


Также нет смысла в вопросе о том, что первично - интерпсихическое или
интрапсихическое. Для того чтобы присоединиться к интерпсихическому
действию, чтобы встретиться с партнером, я должна обладать каким-то запасом
самостоятельности, инициативности…


Лента Мёбиуса – лучший символ отношения ИНТЕР и ИНТРА в процессе развития,
в котором всегда присутствует момент САМОразвития.


Боюсь двигаться дальше, так как не читала ни последних работ Гордона
Уэллса, ни его работу The complimentary contributions of Halliday and
Vygotsky to a Language Based Theory of Learning, 1994. Если можно, пришлите
мне текст, пожалуйста!!! Я очень многим обязана этому талантливому автору;
его книга *Dialogic* *inquiry* открыла для меня новые пути исследования.


Не знаю, упрощу или усложню дальнейшее обсуждение, но не могу не сослаться
на новую работу Бориса Эльконина (см. приложение).


Всего самого-самого доброго!

Галя Цукерман

On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 10:48 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:

> Dear Galina -- This is a serious response to your work and it would be
> great if you could find time to respond, at least the first part where Larry
> tries to summarize your view of the intermental. He is trying to be
> helpful and build on what people are writing, and some help from you would
> move the whole discussion along. We will worry about translation at this
> end......
>
> Bud' zdorova
>
> mike
>
>
> mike
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: <lpscholar2@gmail.com>
> Date: Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 11:28 AM
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Zukerman resumed
> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>
>
> The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons
> actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and seems to
> put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one’s own
> interiorized mental activity. Am i misreading this emphasis in the article.
>
> Is this understanding of (intermental) that prioritizes dialogical
> activity with the other a different focus than the emphasis that Gordon
> Wells puts on the dual aspects of the language system as BOTH
> *a mediation of social activity by enabling participants to plan and
> coordinate and review their actions through EXTERNAL speech
>
> AND in addition language as
> *a medium in which those  above activities are SYMBOLICALLY REPRESENTED,
> providing the psychological sign/tool that mediates the associated ideal
> mental activities in the internal discourse of inner speech.
>
> This shift or crossing over from priority given to the actual physical
> discourse using language (the tool of tools -metatool) to priority given to
> the SYMBOLICALLY represented realm seems to be a key or hinge moment within
> the dual nature of language as both external and interior.
>
> Reading the Zukerman article and the focus on the (intermental) all the
> way down seems to put a different slant or incline to what Gordon Wells is
> exploring.
> My turn is up, but i could reference examples from the Zukerman article on
> the priority of the (intermental)
>
> For those interested i could send another article by Gordon Wells (The
> complimentary contributions of Halliday and Vygotsky to a Language Based
> Theory of Learning, 1994)
> Loose threads being picked up
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my Windows 10 phone
>
>
>
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