[Xmca-l] Re: Ruqaiya Hasan

[HENRY SHONERD]

I would be in over my head with verbal art, but I am sure you are right, David, that the topic is very important to understanding Ruqaiya’s contribution to understanding Vygotsky. On the other hand, Ruqaiya seems to be making the case that Vygotsky lacks something very important: a theory of grammar. That is where her passion and brilliance especially seems to come out. And I agree with her about the need! So maybe it’s not just something you and I take a great interest in, but apparently a gap that needs addressing. It wouldn’t be too far off the mark that this very gap is why I got into the CHAT. I have been interested in this since Vera John-Steiner, another passionate and brilliant Vygotskian, took me under her ample wings 30 years ago. At that time, I wondered if cognitive grammar and Vygotsky were commensurable. Forgive my broken record on this, but I think the potential is still there. I gather from what you have said about Halliday that, from a Vygotskian perspective, there are problems with cognitive grammar (e.g. Langacker). Andy (2011) has written about the lack of a convincing notion of concept coming from cogntive psychology (e.g. Rosch). 

If I am wrong about cognitive grammar, a festschrift for Ruqaiya that includes the “correction” of Vygotsky will help convince me. I don’t mean that such a festschrift would include mention of cognitive grammar and cognitive psychology. Just saying. 

Henry

P.S. I love David’s description of Ruqaiya’s discourse “style”. It brings her alive. Such descriptions will certainly be part of the festschrift, whoever contributes.   

      
> On Jun 26, 2015, at 1:08 AM, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I don't think I'm qualified to edit a special issue for Ruqaiya, Henry. I'm
> not sure who is qualified, but I think it should be somebody whose main
> relationship to the reviewers is not a collection of more than ten
> rejections going back over a decade, varying from the patronizing to the
> extremely vehement (in one case, my work was actually made the stuff of a
> graduate seminar by the reviewer, and dutifully reviled by all the
> participants!). I am sure there will be a Festschrift--but it will be
> probably be organized by her students and colleagues at Macquarie (e.g.
> Annabelle Lukin, who is in the lecture).
> 
> Actually, I no longer have an academic position of any kind. So I think the
> only thing I can usefully do at this point is what I always do--just start
> some kind of discussion and hope that somebody else who can command the
> respect of reviewers and/or publishers will do something with it.  You did
> ask about Ruqaiya's critique of Vygotsky and that was why I posted the link
> to her exotropic theories article; that is the obvious entry point for most
> people interested in Ruqaiya's relationship to Vygotsky.
> 
> But I think a good discussion, and also a good Festscrhift, should be
> inclusive. Many people on the list find grammar less interesting than you
> and I do. That's why I suggested her work on fairy tales. The work on fairy
> tales, though, is not easy to understand; it's really just an instance of a
> much wider theory of Generalized Text Structure that Ruqaiyah was working
> out in opposition to the Labov and Waletzky model of "OCER" (orientation,
> complication, evaluation, and resolution) which essentially reduces all
> narratives to four panel cartoons. That was why I suggested Dr. Lukin's
> lecture, which really does tell you something about how to read Ruqaiyah.
> 
> Ruqaiyah was a wonderful, combative, and at the same time very charming
> interlocutor; her eyes would light up like twin bonfires while you were
> speaking, and you knew that as soon as you paused for breath you were going
> to get a blast that was going to open your eyes but maybe singe your
> eyebrows a little too. But Ruqaiyah was a somewhat awkward public speaker:
> she interrupted herself a lot and like many people who do SFL she was
> always unsure where to start, where to stop, and how much of the whole was
> necessary before the various parts she wanted to talk about would make
> sense. Dr. Lukin doesn't have that problem: she takes one of Ruqaiyah's
> best articles, starts at the start, goes on until she comes to the end, and
> then...
> 
> Well, that was the other thing about Ruqaiyah. She never really stopped; I
> think she just didn't know how, or maybe just didn't bother to practice.
> 
> 
> David Kellogg
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Jun 26, 2015 at 1:59 PM, HENRY SHONERD <hshonerd@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> David,
>> I want to make sure I understand. The first link is for an article
>> connecting Vygotsky, Halliday and Bernstein  that goes straight to
>> Ruqaiya’s “correction” of Vygotsky, right? The second link seems to be an
>> abstract for the text of the third link article, right? I don’t see yet the
>> connection between the article and the lecture, so I’m not sure I can help
>> there. Let’s just say I tackle the article. Can you tell me how my response
>> might help you and Phil get started on the commemorative festschrift?
>> Henry
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jun 25, 2015, at 4:54 PM, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> This is just to say that I am happy to participate in a commemorative
>>> Festschrift for Ruqaiya--or maybe a commemorative special issue, along
>> the
>>> lines of what was done for Leigh Star--in any way I can.
>>> 
>>> One way to start would be for Henry and for the list to read and
>>> discuss--and respond to--THIS:
>>> 
>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Paper/JuneJuly05/HasanVygHallBernst.pdf
>>> 
>>> Something else to think about: Ruqaiya came to Vygotsky more or less the
>>> same way Vygotsky did, through the medium of verbal art. So another thing
>>> to consider is Ruqaiya's work on the structure of fairy tales; by far the
>>> best thing done thereupon since Vygotsky's work on fables.
>>> 
>>> 
>> http://www.equinoxpub.com/journals/index.php/books/article/viewArticle/BOOK-29-752-1
>>> 
>>> If you can't afford or have trouble reading the original, there's a good
>>> lecture by Annabelle Lukin on Ruqaiya's theory of generalized text
>>> structure:
>>> 
>>> https://vimeo.com/76491567
>>> 
>>> David Kellogg
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Jun 26, 2015 at 1:54 AM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Hi Henry
>>>> 
>>>> The issue is -- who wishes to take responsibility for such a production.
>>>> Phil and David have spoken up. Hard to say.
>>>> 
>>>> The thing about self organizing systems is that the self is not located
>> in
>>>> one particular part
>>>> of them. THEY have to self organize.
>>>> 
>>>> You know the old saying, where there is a will there is a way. Very
>>>> optimistic in my view, but better than the total absence of will as a
>>>> starting point.
>>>> 
>>>> Time will tell.
>>>> betcha
>>>> mike
>>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Jun 25, 2015 at 8:55 AM, HENRY SHONERD <hshonerd@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> I am saddened not only by Ruqaiya’s passing by also by how little I
>> knew
>>>>> about Ruqaiya’s work. I hope to correct that now by reading more. Not
>>>> least
>>>>> because of what David points out that she adds to Vygotsky: Grammar!
>>>> There
>>>>> may be a thousand things that Ruqaiya has contributed to systemic
>>>>> functional linguistics, but connecting it so explicitly to Vygotsky,
>>>> THAT I
>>>>> would like to read more and hear more about. If there is, as Mike
>>>> suggests,
>>>>> an MCA honoring of her work, I would very much like to see that
>>>> connection
>>>>> “foregrounded” (a term straight out of the Wikipedia article on
>> Ruqaiya).
>>>>> Henry
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Jun 25, 2015, at 4:29 AM, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I think that Ruqaiya was the only person I ever met who set out to
>>>>>> "correct" Vygotsky and actually succeeded: her insight was that
>>>>> Vygotsky's
>>>>>> theory, without a theory of grammar, was inevitably going to focus too
>>>>>> narrowly on lexical meanings and their historical derivations. As
>>>>> Vygotsky
>>>>>> himself pointed out, it's very hard to tell when children's word
>>>> meanings
>>>>>> develop. But Ruqaiya pointed out that it's very easy to tell when
>> their
>>>>>> wordings do.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I was hoping to see her at the next ISFC in Germany next month--I'll
>>>> miss
>>>>>> her.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> David Kellogg
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 25, 2015 at 4:56 PM, Phil Chappell <philchappell@mac.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Many on this list will know of Ruqaiya Hasan's work and may even have
>>>>>>> joined in an XMCA seminar we had back in the mid noughties. She was a
>>>>> great
>>>>>>> advocate of intersections between Vygotsky, Halliday, Bernstein and
>>>>> Marx.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I'm sad to pass this message on.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Phil Chappell
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Dear SFL Friends
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> With great sadness I have to tell you that Ruqaiya passed away
>>>> suddenly
>>>>>>> yesterday afternoon.  She suffered heart failure, brought on by the
>>>>> stress
>>>>>>> of the cancer and the infection, which had so weakened her body.
>>>>>>> Fortunately Michael was with her at that moment, and for some time
>>>>>>> beforehand.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I have just spoken with Michael, and want to reassure you that he is
>>>>> doing
>>>>>>> well in these circumstances - as courageous and determined as you
>> know
>>>>> he
>>>>>>> would be.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> There will be a small funeral service in Sydney next week.  The time
>>>> and
>>>>>>> date are still being arranged, and details will be posted when they
>>>> are
>>>>>>> available.  There will also be a much larger scholarly event to
>>>>> celebrate
>>>>>>> Ruqaiya's life and work, and to keep it moving forward, later in the
>>>>> year
>>>>>>> at Macquarie University.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> A wonderful life, an immense scholarly contribution, an extraordinary
>>>>>>> friend to so many people around the world.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>> Geoff Williams
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> 
>>>> All there is to thinking is seeing something noticeable which makes
>>>> you see something you weren't noticing which makes you see something
>>>> that isn't even visible. N. McLean, *A River Runs Through it*
>>>> 
>> 
>> 
>>